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For me I didn’t like the mismatched binding for all the books. Hardcovers had different color schemes and the mix of hardcover and softcover books was jarring. I had the same problem with 3.x.
To be honest I only had the crb in print and the rest digital for pathfinder. 5e is the only system I have purchased every book mostly due to a manageable number of books and matching art / binding format that looks amazingly on the shelf... unfortunately due to the high volume of books paizo publishes and large variation in page count I doubt that will change so I don’t see myself purchasing pf2 in print provided I actually end up liking the system.
I would like the ability to download my PDFs of resources, adventures, and scenarios directly into my iPad, though, rather than making a pit-stop through my PC.If you have a pdf reader app that can unzip archives (goodreader can do it) you can already do this today.
The $5.99 version or the $11,99 version?
I know how I feel longing for open call to reopen to have the chance to use my creative writing muscles every once in a while, so I can't even imagine what it's like wanting to start up a business that could be a career.
However:
I'd have to say their strategy of only dealing with "proven delivery" is pretty bad at this point. Of the products I listed before only one has been successful in market. Just saying. Granted, I'm not aware of other digital products they partnered to create.
If that is their experience, based on your own words, why would they take the additional risk of licensing with a person who "didn't . . . have a company"?
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The $5.99 version or the $11,99 version?I would like the ability to download my PDFs of resources, adventures, and scenarios directly into my iPad, though, rather than making a pit-stop through my PC.If you have a pdf reader app that can unzip archives (goodreader can do it) you can already do this today.
I appear to have the $5.99 version, but it does let me download the stuff from paizo.com in Safari, then click "open in Goodreader", which gives the option to unzip the archive and read the actual PDF in Goodreader. No clue what fancy stuff the more expensive version gives you.
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My own two cents
I like the feel of books, and if I am reading something like a PF hardcover rule book, I genuinely enjoy the experience of reading a physical copy more than a digital one. And when playing a game, it's sometimes nice to have a book open so that my computer can have other useful things up without me having to flip back and forth.
That said the PRD is far far easier to look up things in then the textbook most cases.
Personally I am one of those folks who, If I am going to game in real life, I would prefer to minimize the electronics. I recently tried out adventure league locally to get my fix, and didn't have that fun of an experience. Now part of that was due to one player whose idea of "role-playing" was trolling the rest of the party and having his character attempt sexual assaults on the NPCs (blegh), but 3 of the 5 players basically just stared at their phones the entire session with little or no interaction. As a teacher, I deal with that stuff enough at school that the idea of dealing with it in my free time is a major buzzkill for me.
PDFs work perfectly on my iPad, and with the PDF app I'm using I even get full text search across my whole library of several hundred Paizo PDFs. I can find any term in any book in seconds. It doesn't get much more comfortable than that.
What do I think of the digital future of Pathfinder? -- I say it won't have one without becoming digitally-based, and have said so since before PF2's playtest was announced that the game must become an engine to have any hope of reclaiming a smidgen of the mass quantities of mojo lost to the likes of 5e.
Physical books are boutique items; they're almost useless during actual gameplay, and as soon as there are more than one (let alone dozens), then simply remembering which one that the widget you need to look up is in becomes a game-grinds-to-a-halt chore in itself.
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The only PF1 products I have are the Bestaries, because I like the art.
Everything else? Physical or PDF, it's not worth it to me. Someone will make a wiki, or a tool, or an SRD, and that will be a better way to browse, reference, and find content for me since I've never much cared for the tactile nature of the physical products and PDFs are just worse to search.
PF's adventure paths are something that isn't online, which I used to like. But now I homebrew and, despite playing tabletop at least 6 times a week, I'm wondering if I'll put any money towards PF2. I'd like to. I'd like to support a cool system (if it pans out as well as I hope). The products offered just aren't anything I want. I'd feel like I'm donating to a charity.
The products I'd actually pay for are cool stuff integrated with Roll20 (other platforms are a nice idea, but in realistic terms I'll stick with that specific most popular one). It's digital tools. (Imagine if the monster building rules that have been talked about... came with a little widget to automatically adjust monsters, apply templates, etc? How awesome!). My players would like character-building stuff that lets them automatically level. What about an online resource where all the books I buy are compiled together, and when I search for a specific monster, it includes the art and a premade token? That's value to me, rather than Googling the art not on the SRD and then making a token manually.
There are many that still play with physical books, and Paizo will make good money there. There are many that still love the Adventure Paths, and Paizo will make good money there. There are many that just prefer the PDF presentation to the practicallity of an SRD. Paizo will also make money there. But there's a notable group like me that plays online, likes the power of an SRD, and doesn't play Adventure Paths. There's just... nothing to buy.
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What do I think of the digital future of Pathfinder? -- I say it won't have one without becoming digitally-based, and have said so since before PF2's playtest was announced that the game must become an engine to have any hope of reclaiming a smidgen of the mass quantities of mojo lost to the likes of 5e.
This is specifically the argument I was railing against. To have a digital future the game must throw the baby out with the bathwater and move in a primarily digital direction or it will fail. The doom and gloom of obsolescence avoided by only ditching those pesky books.
Physical books are boutique items; they're almost useless during actual gameplay, and as soon as there are more than one (let alone dozens), then simply remembering which one that the widget you look up is in becomes a game-grinds-to-a-halt chore in itself.
Counterpoint. My books are pretty far from useless during actual gameplay, because during actual gameplay - my books are the primary resource. During the PF2 playtest a bunch of players downloaded the pdfs and brought their devices but we still primarily used the books - so much that a person who had a laptop with him had to be reminded multiple times to circulate the book back to players who didn't. Never underestimate the utility of a game book at a table.
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What do I think of the digital future of Pathfinder? -- I say it won't have one without becoming digitally-based, and have said so since before PF2's playtest was announced that the game must become an engine to have any hope of reclaiming a smidgen of the mass quantities of mojo lost to the likes of 5e.
Does 5E have digital options? Or is it winning because fewer books?
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Does 5E have digital options? Or is it winning because fewer books?
5E has DnDBeyond, a clearinghouse for pdf copies of supplements - both published and online exclusive. But that resource has nothing to do with the sales success, nor is it a zero sum game where 5E stole customers from PF in mass quantity and PF has to outdo 5E to recapture them. 5E has market penetration that PF doesn't, 5E has a level of name recognition that PF doesn't. 5E managed to tap into two zeitgeists at once (the 40th anniversary of the product line and the rise of streaming games) to elevate their profile. Fewer books, more digital tools, bigger corporate presence - there isn't evidence to show any of these is the definitive catalyst for the success.
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What do I think of the digital future of Pathfinder? -- I say it won't have one without becoming digitally-based, and have said so since before PF2's playtest was announced that the game must become an engine to have any hope of reclaiming a smidgen of the mass quantities of mojo lost to the likes of 5e.Does 5E have digital options? Or is it winning because fewer books?
From the context it seems like he is talking about an easy app and web presence that connects to the Paizo store to allow a kind of subscription model to access and use the breadth of the PF rules for things like Society play, much like how D&D Beyond does for people who play Adventure League.
A way to access the rules, character sheets, character building, and some "at the table" functions for players WITHOUT requiring a $20-$2,000 investment up front for Society Play would indeed I think go a long way to getting new players involved and building interesting characters by dint of the simple ability to just... do it.
There ARE already some great tools out there right now, some are being built and are unreleased, others are still in their infancy but on par I tend to agree with them, but the big problem here is that Paizo and Pathfinder does not have an endless Bag of Holding filled with unlimitted Magic the Gathering and Hasbro money to invest in the various smaller companies who have the skills and intent to do this.
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I definitely prefer pdfs, only physical books I use tend to be module ones since its helpful to have both physical book and pdf out when running stuff online.
Back when I still played live games more often... Well considering I can't just run games at home, its really hard to carry tons of books around to games and pretty slow to take them out in middle of game. So just easier to take laptop with me. If I couldn't do that, only other real choice would be to make really good notes :p
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Honestly, part of what I like about Paizo is that their licensing means that other people can build digital solutions themselves. I don't want the only digital tools for PF2 to be the one that Paizo builds, or the one that some company that Paizo gives a license to builds. I want a thousand flowers to bloom.
Now I'd like it to become easier for the digital solutions that third parties build to bridge the gap between "stuff that's in the SRD" and "stuff that's not in the SRD", if there was some easy way for the PDFs I bought from Paizo to be annotated or something so my online tool can extract the bits it needs to run a game that would be awesome. But it's in no way a showstopper.
Currently I'm actually running a game of 5e (Out of the Abyss) largely via D&D Beyond> it's fine. It's not a game changer though, and I'd be basically just as happy if I had PDF copies of the 5e books. Paizo is already at that point, and that combined with an SRD is definitely enough for me.
But every player needs access to the rules, for those times when they are not with everyone else and want to reference them on their own.Could've used some of this in the PF2 Strategy Guide thread where people were saying all a transitioning player from PF1 needs is a concise write up of the 3 modes of play and character creation rules. And how not everyone reads or learns the rules and can just rely on other players to tell them what to do. Cause there are people who flat out say not every player needs access to the rules.
That would have been me.
My point on that thread was that not everyone needs to own a full text of the rules. They need access to it, yes. More accurately the DM needs it. But they do not need to each own their own copy. I believe dirtypool was the one who said I was basically proposing a players handbook, and yeah that’s pretty accurate. If that distinction between own and access wasn’t clear in my posts, I apologize.
Combining the PHB and DMG wasn’t a bad call. It certainly cut down on expenses for both Paizo and players (especially DMs) that wanted to get the full game for the lowest investment. But for players that, for whatever reason, don’t want or feel the need to own the full rules (or can’t as TOZ correctly points out), something smaller and more fully player focused might better serve.
I don’t think there’s one correct answer here, as many have pointed out. Different products can serve different markets, and Paizo seems to be taking the approach of trying to release complimentary methods of delivery rather than picking one or two methods. Personally, I love using the PRD app (which for those unfamiliar, is more or less an offline version of the PRD on this website), and would enjoy seeing support for something similar out of Paizo or one of their partners.
Edit: I also look askance at a fully subscription service or any other DRM run platform. I love my kindle, but the idea of Amazon reaching in and turning off my bookshelf is something I hope I don’t live to see. I will cry.
5E has market penetration that PF doesn't, 5E has a level of name recognition that PF doesn't.
Exactly. WotC can do whatever it wants with that license and likely succeed due to the above.
I grew up with the name of that system flashing across my TV every Saturday morning. The first edition was the first system that I played even before the beginner's box. I would probably be playing that system exclusively if not for the hiccough that was 4e occuring at the precise period in time I was returning to RPGs.
But, hey, now I adore Paizo and its people.
I know how I feel longing for open call to reopen to have the chance to use my creative writing muscles every once in a while, so I can't even imagine what it's like wanting to start up a business that could be a career.
However:
I'd have to say their strategy of only dealing with "proven delivery" is pretty bad at this point. Of the products I listed before only one has been successful in market. Just saying. Granted, I'm not aware of other digital products they partnered to create.If that is their experience, based on your own words, why would they take the additional risk of licensing with a person who "didn't . . . have a company"?
Because that's like doubling down on one model that demonstrably doesn't work. If the rate of success overall really is that low then the approach is to let more people pitch not less.
Honestly, part of what I like about Paizo is that their licensing means that other people can build digital solutions themselves. I don't want the only digital tools for PF2 to be the one that Paizo builds, or the one that some company that Paizo gives a license to builds. I want a thousand flowers to bloom.
Now I'd like it to become easier for the digital solutions that third parties build to bridge the gap between "stuff that's in the SRD" and "stuff that's not in the SRD", if there was some easy way for the PDFs I bought from Paizo to be annotated or something so my online tool can extract the bits it needs to run a game that would be awesome. But it's in no way a showstopper.
Currently I'm actually running a game of 5e (Out of the Abyss) largely via D&D Beyond> it's fine. It's not a game changer though, and I'd be basically just as happy if I had PDF copies of the 5e books. Paizo is already at that point, and that combined with an SRD is definitely enough for me.
The problem with that, at least re: Paizo, is that quality takes time. Time spent building a quality product should be able to be charged for. The state of a for-profit company's quality of life tools should not be based on charity. You end up in the situation where are where products like HeroLab are extremely bad from a user experience perspective.
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Because that's like doubling down on one model that demonstrably doesn't work. If the rate of success overall really is that low then the approach is to let more people pitch not less.
There are many reasons not to let private entities who are not actually incorporated as a company pitch to be given the license to use your product in the creation of their own. Many of those reasons are legal, some of them are based on the expectation of a level of professionalism.
Taking to that companies forums to loudly decry their policy doesn't exactly speak to the kind of conduct they might want to do business with.
Because that's like doubling down on one model that demonstrably doesn't work. If the rate of success overall really is that low then the approach is to let more people pitch not less.There are many reasons not to let private entities who are not actually incorporated as a company pitch to be given the license to use your product in the creation of their own. Many of those reasons are legal, some of them are based on the expectation of a level of professionalism.
Taking to that companies forums to loudly decry their policy doesn't exactly speak to the kind of conduct they might want to do business with.
Incorporating is not a complex process. It should not be considered a barrier to entry.
Loudly? A few posts in a single thread is being loud? Huh. At any rate, like I said, my faith they'll change in this regard is zero. I've tried on multiple occasions. I'm telling you, there's been zero serious consideration on Paizo's end if you're not an already established entity with a lot of money. I don't really want to share my correspondence with Vic because that feels tacky. You're just going to have to trust me on this. Or not. /shrug
Update: When I was typing this, this video was playing in my background and sums up nicely why I post about things like this: https://youtu.be/t7XSckjRPo0?t=900
The problem with that, at least re: Paizo, is that quality takes time. Time spent building a quality product should be able to be charged for. The state of a for-profit company's quality of life tools should not be based on charity. You end up in the situation where are where products like HeroLab are extremely bad from a user experience perspective.
When did I ever say that you shouldn't be able to charge for digital tools for PF2? I'm fine with that, I'm just not particularly in love with the idea of a single supported set of tools (presumably from a single vendor). I don't like that the only set of digital tools for 5e are D&D Beyond. I'd hate for that to become the case for Pathfinder.
The problem with that, at least re: Paizo, is that quality takes time. Time spent building a quality product should be able to be charged for. The state of a for-profit company's quality of life tools should not be based on charity. You end up in the situation where are where products like HeroLab are extremely bad from a user experience perspective.When did I ever say that you shouldn't be able to charge for digital tools for PF2? I'm fine with that, I'm just not particularly in love with the idea of a single supported set of tools (presumably from a single vendor). I don't like that the only set of digital tools for 5e are D&D Beyond. I'd hate for that to become the case for Pathfinder.
You can't release for-pay tools with the Pathfinder trade name without a license from Paizo. You can't use their non-OGL monsters or content in anyway unless you want it to be free. To comply with their license requirements is currently way too strict. You said you were happy with their licensing, hence my response. If you want a diverse array of quality tools, they will need to change their approach to licensing.
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...where 5E stole customers from PF in mass quantity
To be fair a large portion of those people were “stolen” by Pathfinder when 4E was released so they are not so much being stolen as returning to their original game system not that it returned to a more historic representation of the game they had played.
5E has market penetration that PF doesn't, 5E has a level of name recognition that PF doesn't
I also don’t think this is necessarily as impactful as some think. Paizo enjoyed the #1 spot for much of their first decade of the Pathfinder system during which time we saw some of the greatest growth in the TTOP genre in history. Given that, there is a massive community that did not grow up on D&D like most of us grognard s did and hence don’t have the inherent or nostalgic connection to the brand that we do.
Okay, ultimately as long as physical copies of books and other important content are available I could care less what is done digitally. Some of the things being talked about go over my head but a couple people here (DISCLAIMER: by no means the majority) are saying things that sound alarmingly close to “Burn the books in the name of progress!” Which should be a red flag for anyone with half a brain. I thought that 1st world societies as a whole were beyond that mind set. Personally I consider that mindset and society as a whole acting on it one of the handful of heralds of a cyberpunk distopia. Fun to RP or read about but terrible otherwise. (I guess the world is pretty terrible as is so maybe it’s not as big a deal as I think it is. I guess we’ll see sooner or later.)
To Buri Reborn: while I don’t know the whole story, what you are saying sounds an awful lot like whining about not getting a job. FYI doing this on a forum run by the company that turned you down is just childish and in poor taste. Good luck ever getting a job if you continue this kind of activity.
Because that's like doubling down on one model that demonstrably doesn't work. If the rate of success overall really is that low then the approach is to let more people pitch not less.I know how I feel longing for open call to reopen to have the chance to use my creative writing muscles every once in a while, so I can't even imagine what it's like wanting to start up a business that could be a career.
However:
I'd have to say their strategy of only dealing with "proven delivery" is pretty bad at this point. Of the products I listed before only one has been successful in market. Just saying. Granted, I'm not aware of other digital products they partnered to create.If that is their experience, based on your own words, why would they take the additional risk of licensing with a person who "didn't . . . have a company"?
No, it's more like low risk bets are already pretty risky, they're not going to suddenly go out on a limb to take more risk on a risky bet.
Also, that video you linked is not even close to your situation. The association of your post to that statements made in that video implies that you believe Paizo is producing bad products because it won't invest in your idea. I feel for your frustration, but that is just patently unfair.
EDIT: Also, it's not charity, it's risk. Two entities doing business together allocate the risk of the endeavor.
To be fair a large portion of those people were “stolen” by Pathfinder when 4E was released so they are not so much being stolen as returning to their original game system not that it returned to a more historic representation of the game they had played.
My argument was that no customers were stolen... that the idea of "stealing customers" from one game to another is largely bogus.
I also don’t think this is necessarily as impactful as some think. Paizo enjoyed the #1 spot for much of their first decade of the Pathfinder system during which time we saw some of the greatest growth in the TTOP genre in history.
For accuracy's sake: Pathfinder "enjoyed the #1 spot" from 2011 - 2014. That's three years. That's not "much of their first decade." It's the very small window between when it caught on with more than just angry 4E escapees and when 5E was released. And the greatest growth in the TTOP genre industry happened after 2014 and largely based on sales appears to be attributable to 5E.
My point wasn't to further a conversation about the tensions between editions, but to say that largely they're a myth. 5E players are one portion of the marketplace, PF players are another and often - those two groups DO overlap quite a bit.
Incorporating is not a complex process. It should not be considered a barrier to entry.
Then by all means, incorporate, build a model of the tool you wish to use and approach through the proper channels about your company applying the PF license to the product you've already begun working toward. Like any other company in the marketplace
Loudly? A few posts in a single thread is being loud? Huh. At any rate, like I said, my faith they'll change in this regard is zero. I've tried on multiple occasions. I'm telling you, there's been zero serious consideration on Paizo's end if you're not an already established entity with a lot of money.
A few vociferous posts in which you rather vehemently call them out..
I don't really want to share my correspondence with Vic because that feels tacky. You're just going to have to trust me on this. Or not. /shrug
You shouldn't share that correspondence, nor frankly if you wish to actually do the things you pitched - should you be discussing any of this here.
Update: When I was typing this, this video was playing in my background and sums up nicely why I post about things like this: https://youtu.be/t7XSckjRPo0?t=900
If you complain about something you're a real fan, but fanboys don't do that? That's self aggrandizing.
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I'm all for adding digital tools/options for the people who'd like them, but I suspect my own use of them beyond online SRDs would be pretty minimal. I vastly prefer physical books to PDFs, and don't usually get PDFs except for the ones that come with my subscription, or if it's a 3rd party product that's not available in print format. For whatever reason, I have an incredibly difficult time focusing on reading long documents on a screen unless it's for work. It just does not hold my attention and I end up getting distracted three pages in.
I do reference the Archives and the d20psfrd during gameplay, though, rather than looking things up in the physical books (it's a lot quicker). So I guess my habits are sort of a hybrid.
A system that consisted of 100% database/online resources would be one I just wouldn't play. A) I'd never get through reading the core rulebook, and B) I like owning things that I know are going to be available on my shelf whenever I want them, not things I have to subscribe to and will only last as long as the people/company putting it out is wiling to support them.
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What do I think of the digital future of Pathfinder? -- I say it won't have one without becoming digitally-based, and have said so since before PF2's playtest was announced that the game must become an engine to have any hope of reclaiming a smidgen of the mass quantities of mojo lost to the likes of 5e.
Physical books are boutique items; they're almost useless during actual gameplay, and as soon as there are more than one (let alone dozens), then simply remembering which one that the widget you need to look up is in becomes a game-grinds-to-a-halt chore in itself.
Saying physical books are boutique items reflects your personal bias, and is in no way tied to actual fact. It's fine if you personally feel that way, but it simply is not true.
Further, books are hardly useless during actual gameplay. That's clearly another personal bias you have, as opposed to any kind of actual fact. D&D and RPGs in general have been played for DECADES using the books (without cellphones, laptops, and tablets) so that statement just doesn't hold up.
In fact, in most of our games, we limit (as in, pretty much NO) electronics (cellphones, laptops, tablets) during the game and have had no problems or issues.
Having an opinion is cool. Trying to pass that opinion off as fact is not.
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I would LOVE to build robust tools for Pathfinder. I've asked to time and time again. I can't get Paizo to take me seriously, apparently. Their licensing model is their worst enemy in a digital world.
When I've talked to Vic about this, I utterly failed at getting anything set in motion simply because I didn't already have a company established even though I can prove my qualifications very quickly. I was flatly denied before I even got the chance though. I also have very qualified colleagues who would love to do this. I simply don't understand why this space is hard to improve.
The long and short of Paizo's stance as I understand it is that if you aren't already a large company or a company that is a long-time incumbent in the RPG space, you have no chance.
Unfortunately, I suspect making posts like this in a public forum probably has not done you any favors in your quest to get work with Paizo or any other RPG company ...
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Welp, complaining publicly that a company turned you down despite your idea being *excellent* while their view of it *narrow-minded* is a rather solid way of making sure that nobody will want to do business with you, ever.
It's simply something professional courtesy says that you don't do. Sure, there are no NDAs over such conversations and nobody will sue you into oblivion, but as far as considering you a trustworthy businessperson, well, you're done and gone in one.
Paizo dodged a bullet there.
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Yeah, if I’m reading for pleasure nothing tops print. If I am referencing, digital please.
This is what I do in practice too, but I'd much rather user paper for both.
The main problem I see is the fragmentation of information. For example, when I'm playing a spellcaster I have to use my phone because my spells are scattered across a dozen different books.
If there were possible to have an "Ultimate Spells", "Ultimate Bestiary", "Ultimate [class and all of their archetypes]", etc. books then I would prefer that over digital options. PF2 is bound to be accretive, so that's not going to happen.
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I've a feeling almost the entirety of my "digital future" for Pathfinder will consist of Fantasy Grounds modules, and, if the structure of their agreement remains, the pdfs associated with such modules.
The Smiteworks crew have done an amazing job of keeping up with new Pathfinder and 5e products, and I hope that continues to be the case. Everything I run these days except convention games is done on that platform, and they save me a ton of time with prep-work.
Speaking of, gonna go buy the latest Tyrant's Grasp #2....
Because that's like doubling down on one model that demonstrably doesn't work. If the rate of success overall really is that low then the approach is to let more people pitch not less.I know how I feel longing for open call to reopen to have the chance to use my creative writing muscles every once in a while, so I can't even imagine what it's like wanting to start up a business that could be a career.
However:
I'd have to say their strategy of only dealing with "proven delivery" is pretty bad at this point. Of the products I listed before only one has been successful in market. Just saying. Granted, I'm not aware of other digital products they partnered to create.If that is their experience, based on your own words, why would they take the additional risk of licensing with a person who "didn't . . . have a company"?No, it's more like low risk bets are already pretty risky, they're not going to suddenly go out on a limb to take more risk on a risky bet.
Also, that video you linked is not even close to your situation. The association of your post to that statements made in that video implies that you believe Paizo is producing bad products because it won't invest in your idea. I feel for your frustration, but that is just patently unfair.
EDIT: Also, it's not charity, it's risk. Two entities doing business together allocate the risk of the endeavor.
It is close. I think Paizo's licensing setup is bad. Therefore I'm talking about why it's bad. Louis' comments aren't about products. They're about, in his words, the "dumb shit" companies do. That's a large umbrella of practices. It not about my idea. It's about the total stonewall of "you must be this tall to ride." That's anti-competitive.
Incorporating is not a complex process. It should not be considered a barrier to entry.Then by all means, incorporate, build a model of the tool you wish to use and approach through the proper channels about your company applying the PF license to the product you've already begun working toward. Like any other company in the marketplace
Since we both agreed I should not publish my conversation, you will simply have to trust me when I say that simply would not work and cannot work under Paizo's current licensing setup. It could maybe work if it had a larger company backing it but a freshly founded company has no chance. I'm not sure if that's true with print partners, but it is absolutely true when it comes to digital according to my conversations with Paizo. That's my whole problem.
Unfortunately, I suspect making posts like this in a public forum probably has not done you any favors in your quest to get work with Paizo or any other RPG company ...I would LOVE to build robust tools for Pathfinder. I've asked to time and time again. I can't get Paizo to take me seriously, apparently. Their licensing model is their worst enemy in a digital world.
When I've talked to Vic about this, I utterly failed at getting anything set in motion simply because I didn't already have a company established even though I can prove my qualifications very quickly. I was flatly denied before I even got the chance though. I also have very qualified colleagues who would love to do this. I simply don't understand why this space is hard to improve.
The long and short of Paizo's stance as I understand it is that if you aren't already a large company or a company that is a long-time incumbent in the RPG space, you have no chance.
As I said, I have no more faith in them changing their setup. I'm not here trying to get business. I'm here about the discussion around digital products which goes hand in hand with how they treat licensing.
I would LOVE to build robust tools for Pathfinder. I've asked to time and time again. I can't get Paizo to take me seriously, apparently. Their licensing model is their worst enemy in a digital world.
When I've talked to Vic about this, I utterly failed at getting anything set in motion simply because I didn't already have a company established even though I can prove my qualifications very quickly. I was flatly denied before I even got the chance though. I also have very qualified colleagues who would love to do this. I simply don't understand why this space is hard to improve.
The long and short of Paizo's stance as I understand it is that if you aren't already a large company or a company that is a long-time incumbent in the RPG space, you have no chance.
The big thing for me and my Web Developer friends is I really don't want to figure out some hacky way to get the Data from the books into some structured format. As I see it I have a few options:
1: We input everything by hand. We started that, and it's TOUGH. I can't image doing that for subsequent books.
2: We wait for someone else to do it, scrape it from their website, and turn it into the way we want it.
3: We create a web form, and peddle the data entry to friends and family.
4: We try and do some REALLY wacky parsing between the PDF and a usable format. We've tried this, and we can't get anything super reliable.
5: We buy some structured format from Paizo. I've reached out to Paizo once, and I don't really think they understood what I was asking for and forwarded me to an e-mail to potentially become one of their licensees (Ala AON style).
I agree. Unfortunately there are no good options here. Below are my comments on your list.
1. This is a nonstarter. This is literally throwing manpower at the problem. It's expensive and slow.
2. Possible but very error prone. Any hiccup scraping or slowness to update from your target resource means you're behind. This is not something you'd want to build a product on. Maybe as an alternate ingestion should something else fail. Maybe. But still probably not.
3. Same problem as 1.
4. This is unfortunately part of the problem with PDFs. They're not really a text based document which means you can't do this reliably or you need to invest a lot of engineering to make it consistent.
5. AON actually works with PDFs and has done part of number 4. Props to them. But, as far as I understand, Paizo doesn't have their products in a structured format.
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Since we both agreed I should not publish my conversation, you will simply have to trust me when I say that simply would not work and cannot work under Paizo's current licensing setup. It could maybe work if it had a larger company backing it but a freshly founded company has no chance. I'm not sure if that's true with print partners, but it is absolutely true when it comes to digital according to my conversations with Paizo. That's my whole problem.
The main point I was making was that you should either A find a means to pursue your goal in a professional manner or drop the subject in this public forum because it A. makes you sound like you have an axe to grind, B. makes you sound incredibly unprofessional.
If a random person came up to me and offered to create a product using my IP by chiding me about all the things they don’t like about my current model and then told me they were just a single entity with no capital, no business plan and no articles of incorporation - I wouldn’t take them seriously either.
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...where 5E stole customers from PF in mass quantityTo be fair a large portion of those people were “stolen” by Pathfinder when 4E was released so they are not so much being stolen as returning to their original game system not that it returned to a more historic representation of the game they had played.
5E has market penetration that PF doesn't, 5E has a level of name recognition that PF doesn'tI also don’t think this is necessarily as impactful as some think. Paizo enjoyed the #1 spot for much of their first decade of the Pathfinder system during which time we saw some of the greatest growth in the TTOP genre in history. Given that, there is a massive community that did not grow up on D&D like most of us grognard s did and hence don’t have the inherent or nostalgic connection to the brand that we do.
It is extremely impactful, especially when it comes to growing the player base. Make no mistake: Pathfinder could never have done what it did if WotC hadn't dropped the ball with 4E.
Since we both agreed I should not publish my conversation, you will simply have to trust me when I say that simply would not work and cannot work under Paizo's current licensing setup. It could maybe work if it had a larger company backing it but a freshly founded company has no chance. I'm not sure if that's true with print partners, but it is absolutely true when it comes to digital according to my conversations with Paizo. That's my whole problem.The main point I was making was that you should either A find a means to pursue your goal in a professional manner or drop the subject in this public forum because it A. makes you sound like you have an axe to grind, B. makes you sound incredibly unprofessional.
If a random person came up to me and offered to create a product using my IP by chiding me about all the things they don’t like about my current model and then told me they were just a single entity with no capital, no business plan and no articles of incorporation - I wouldn’t take them seriously either.
I would agree, you shouldn't, but you would be mistaken to think that's how I approached it.
It's pretty clear (to me, at least) that a "perfect" digital solution requires data manipulation capabilities, which PDFs do not offer. But a "perfect" solution also requires more than a ephemeral entitlement, so it can't just be switched off like a subscription...this is which things like D&D Insider and D&D Beyond fall short. Unless a solution that provides both reaches critical mass, I don't think PDFs are going anywhere.
I would agree, you shouldn't, but you would be mistaken to think that's how I approached it.Since we both agreed I should not publish my conversation, you will simply have to trust me when I say that simply would not work and cannot work under Paizo's current licensing setup. It could maybe work if it had a larger company backing it but a freshly founded company has no chance. I'm not sure if that's true with print partners, but it is absolutely true when it comes to digital according to my conversations with Paizo. That's my whole problem.The main point I was making was that you should either A find a means to pursue your goal in a professional manner or drop the subject in this public forum because it A. makes you sound like you have an axe to grind, B. makes you sound incredibly unprofessional.
If a random person came up to me and offered to create a product using my IP by chiding me about all the things they don’t like about my current model and then told me they were just a single entity with no capital, no business plan and no articles of incorporation - I wouldn’t take them seriously either.
Be that as it may, I think you've made your point.
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Be that as it may, I think you've made your point.I would agree, you shouldn't, but you would be mistaken to think that's how I approached it.Since we both agreed I should not publish my conversation, you will simply have to trust me when I say that simply would not work and cannot work under Paizo's current licensing setup. It could maybe work if it had a larger company backing it but a freshly founded company has no chance. I'm not sure if that's true with print partners, but it is absolutely true when it comes to digital according to my conversations with Paizo. That's my whole problem.The main point I was making was that you should either A find a means to pursue your goal in a professional manner or drop the subject in this public forum because it A. makes you sound like you have an axe to grind, B. makes you sound incredibly unprofessional.
If a random person came up to me and offered to create a product using my IP by chiding me about all the things they don’t like about my current model and then told me they were just a single entity with no capital, no business plan and no articles of incorporation - I wouldn’t take them seriously either.
I mean my whole point has been the following. There lots of passionate, talented people out there who would love to contribute to the community. That said, with anything in a market, those should be able be done at a profit. There is no good reason why only Paizo and Wizards needs to make money in this venture. That is overly combative and not seeking to expand the market in any way when digital is a fantastic way to grow markets (see brick and mortar vs. online shopping). This has manifested itself in a very strict licensing regime. That needs to change if you want quality, diverse digital tools. That's it. Everything else has been folks picking at my particular posts and not my broader point.