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I'm planning on house ruling that people can pick their own stat boosts, lore, and skill boosts and ignoring backgrounds altogether, if they appear as they did in the playtest.
That way we can skip forward a few years, when you can essentially get any combination you can think of from splat books, and then refluff to make it suit your character's actual background.
A "build your own" background also removes the need to peruse tables of backgrounds to find the right one.
If they decided to build up backgrounds into something meaningful, like granting weapon proficienies, or cantrips, or something, then I would be more inclined to let them be.
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I think backgrounds will really start to shine in Age of Ashes when we get campaign specific backgrounds. While many early AP campaign traits are a bit uninspired, the more modern stuff is really flavorful and connected to the story. Go check out the player's guide to Reurn of the Runelords for example.
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No, this is untrue because, with the possible aforementioned exceptions of Str and Cha (and actually, we don't know if they somehow boosted Cha to make up for the loss of Resonance), which only effect certain characters, all the others are quite useful for everyone.
The problem is that Con and Wis are mutually exclusive with other ability scores. You only get two ability score boosts from backgrounds, and many builds outright need them elsewhere.
There are only four sources of ability score increases at character generation, one of which is completely locked (class bonus). If you want to start with a 16 in something else, then you must be able to line up both your ancestry and background behind that ability score. Thanks to the way multiclassing works, a 16 is outright required in a non-primary ability score for certain character concepts. It's not a matter of optimal vs sub-optimal, you literally need the 16 or your build is illegal. There are other considerations with attack rolls and AC, but multiclassing gives the clearest example of how your ability score placement can be completely locked in by your build concept.
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Backgrounds were dead in the water once it was determined they were all "the same thing" that could be replaced by just picking 2 stats and some Lore skill. Essentially chose to make them as uninteresting as possible.
The 5E ones can also get in the way of your backstory, but at least they are pretty cool and grants proficiency, items and an unique ability. Even the Starfinder ones are impactful! These are similar except without the good elements.
And don't tell me new players need them to make their backstories! That's just lazy and most aren't even cool.
I do hope they actually do something substantial and give cool abilities that make people want to pick them. I always found traits to be a good way of rounding out your char by getting some random non-adventure skill or thing that makes sense for their culture. They were complimentary rather than limiting. I wish Backgrounds could be more like that.
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The problem is that Con and Wis is mutually exclusive with other ability scores.
There are only four sources of ability score increases at character generation, one of which is completely locked (class bonus). If you want to start with a 16 in something else, then you must be able to line up both your ancestry and background behind that ability score. Thanks to the way multiclassing works, a 16 is outright required in a non-primary ability score for certain character concepts. It's not a matter of optimal vs sub-optimal, you literally need the 16 or your build is illegal. There are other considerations with attack rolls and AC, but multiclassing gives the clearest example of how your ability score placement can be completely locked in by your build concept.
If you need to multiclass before 6th level, you need to put a bonus into both your main stat and the Class you're multiclassing to, yes. Of course, I'm not sure mechanically incentivizing people who want to multiclass to Cleric to pick a Background that either adds to Wisdom or their main class's stat is that bad.
It's still a pretty wide list. I mean, say you want a Str/Wis bonus from Background due to wanting to be a Fighter/Cleric or Ranger/Druid or something. 13 out of 19 Backgrounds in the Playtest allow this. Or you want to go Dex/Cha and multiclass Rogue/Bard or something like that. 12 out of 19 Backgrounds allow that.
And that's for concepts that not only involve multiclassing, but require it before 6th level. Anyone with any Background can hit the prerequisites at Level 5. Concepts like that are far from universal, and without one I'm unconvinced that having a 16 in a secondary stat is even advantageous.
In 5e I didn’t feel that backgrounds were that interesting. Particularly when you’re playing with any optimizers. You end up with an entire party of sailors/pirates. Works on the Sword Coast I guess but weird otherwise. It’s just flatly better than the other backgrounds.
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In 5e I didn’t feel that backgrounds were that interesting. Particularly when you’re playing with any optimizers. You end up with an entire party of sailors/pirates. Works on the Sword Coast I guess but weird otherwise. It’s just flatly better than the other backgrounds.
This becomes more of a risk the more mechanical benefits accrue to Backgrounds (since one set of benefits will inevitably be better). As long as one Skill Feat isn't a 'must have' the current ones are low impact enough that it's pretty unlikely at the moment. One of several reasons I actually approve of how low impact they are at the moment.
I personally hope traits come back in a later book. Let the background be the rough backstory details ("I was a blacksmith") and let traits represent the weird complications ("Who learned their craft as an apprentice in the Witchmarket.")
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It's still a pretty wide list. I mean, say you want a Str/Wis bonus from Background due to wanting to be a Fighter/Cleric or Ranger/Druid or something. 13 out of 19 Backgrounds in the Playtest allow this.
And that means 6 out of 19 backgrounds do not support it. Again, this isn't a problem if you start with a mechanical build and then go looking for backgrounds that fit; there will be plenty of options. It becomes a problem if you start with a concept, and then run into the fact that the corresponding background doesn't fit what you're doing.
And that's for concepts that not only involve multiclassing, but require it before 6th level.
As a practical matter, multiclass builds needed to get in the door at 2nd. Not only do you actually want to start playing your character rather than waiting until halfway through the campaign to get your build rolling, but you really don't want to sacrificing your higher-level feats on obligatory feat taxes.
Even for non-multiclass builds, you have the issue of Strength and Dexterity and how they essentially govern your AC (which is functionally determined by your Dex score plus your Armor bonus). A wizard who isn't doing any multiclassing basically needs to start with a 16 in Dexterity if he doesn't want to suffer critical hits every time something looks at him funny. You can talk about not needing to play optimally all day, but the if the price of that is getting crit and knocked out all the time... well, that isn't going to be very fun now is it?
I wouldn't have a problem with this if backgrounds actually brought something interesting to the table, but they don't. They're just proxies for skill feats and lore, and the game system would be better without them and to spend that page space on something else.
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On the other side of the coin, I can probably live without Magus backstories always involving Wayang Spellhunting.
Just goes to show some people can ruin it for everyone. Is why we can't have nice things.
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Also, it was a weird shame that multiclassing was locked to level 2 in 2E. I mean, that would have been a big benefit of the new multiclassing system, being able to start off the campaign with your multiclass character concept in full swing.
The 16 ability score requirement is just flat wrong, in my opinion, and will hopefully be removed in the final version. If it's still there, thank goodness for house rules.
Backgrounds just really don't serve a purpose for me unless there's something unique to each one. No one needs the game telling them what background they have to have if they want certain stats or skills. As a shorthand for new players they're not even useful, because they add a step of option searching rather than skipping to asking which skills they want to be good at and which stats they care about.
Did anybody bother to make a character in the playtest who multiclasses through retraining?
Since even if you don't start with a 16 in the stat you wanted, getting a 16 is a lot easier after those level 5 stat bumps so you can go and retrain your level 2 and 4 feat.
I mean, sure, some concepts like "magus" should probably be playable from the get go, but asking those particular characters to have high Int (or Dex/Str) is probably not unreasonable.
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Traits did have the problem that many were useless and a handful really good. Plus a lot of the good ones had very specific backstories that didn't fit many characters, so were inevitably going to be picked mostly by optimizers. Backgrounds level out the playing field by giving nothing unique. But I think it's very valid to ask, do they add anything at all to the game, but page count? I haven't seen any real arguments that they do, only people arguing that they're not actively bad.
Simply having the background step say "Come up with your character's backstory. Take two attribute boosts and a skill feat and lore skill that are appropriate to this backstory." Would do the exact same thing and wouldn't require reading through a list of dozens of backgrounds to find one that kind of fits what you had in mind, and would free up space that could be used on something better.
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On the other side of the coin, I can probably live without Magus backstories always involving Wayang Spellhunting.
Just goes to show some people can ruin it for everyone. Is why we can't have nice things.
Wayang Spellhunter and Magical Lineage should have been a feat. They're way too good to be traits. Traits really needed to be kept close to "+1 trait bonus and class skill", but that standard was never adhered to from the very outset.
Did anybody bother to make a character in the playtest who multiclasses through retraining?
Doesn't work; you have to have been able to qualify based on your character build at that level. So if you only had a 14 in Charisma at 2nd level, you can never retrain your 2nd or 4th level feats to Sorcerer dedication. Ability scores can't be retrained at all by RAW, either.
On the other side of the coin, I can probably live without Magus backstories always involving Wayang Spellhunting.
Just goes to show some people can ruin it for everyone. Is why we can't have nice things.
Wayang Spellhunter and Magical Lineage should have been a feat. They're way too good to be traits. Traits really needed to be kept close to "+1 trait bonus and class skill", but that standard was never adhered to from the very outset.
Did anybody bother to make a character in the playtest who multiclasses through retraining?Doesn't work; you have to have been able to qualify based on your character build at that level. So if you only had a 14 in Charisma at 2nd level, you can never retrain your 2nd or 4th level feats to Sorcerer dedication. Ability scores can't be retrained at all by RAW, either.
You'd be surprised. I learned even in PF1 you can retrain into things that were not possible at the original level. Was mindblown! Should be same in 2.
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Choosing a background is a LOT faster than searching through every skill feat to find the one that best suits your character; this will only become more true as more skill feats are printed.
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Simply having the background step say "Come up with your character's backstory. Take two attribute boosts and a skill feat and lore skill that are appropriate to this backstory." Would do the exact same thing and wouldn't require reading through a list of dozens of backgrounds to find one that kind of fits what you had in mind, and would free up space that could be used on something better.
This might be true for some players. On the other hand, having a list and some flavor text helps out new players who might still be getting the hang of the concept of character backstories.
A background list also means that a new player learns about the setting or adventure path while building their character. The Doomsday Dawn backgrounds, for example, includes stuff like "Mind Quake Survivor" which provides a certain flavor that might not have been a consideration before.
I think there's room for "Boost two ability scores, choose a Lore, and select a skill feat" for those players who definitely know what they want, but having background selections serves as a more valuable teaching tool for the game, the setting, and individual campaigns.
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You'd be surprised. I learned even in PF1 you can retrain into things that were not possible at the original level. Was mindblown! Should be same in 2.
In terms of what *should* be possible, it *should* be possible for the fighter with 14 intelligence to increase that at level 5 and go back and swap their level 2 feat for Wizard Dedication. As the "oh, I get this now." Like the restriction on retraining should be "you can only take level 2 feats in level 2 slots, and you can't fill feat slots with feats that can't go in that slot (i.e. you can't trade a skill feat for a class feat)."
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I really like the way backgrounds were done in Starfinder, and kinda wish Paizo had some the same for PF2E. Starfinder backgrounds give:
You have reached a rank of authority in your religion. Typical lay followers of your religion have a starting attitude of helpful toward you and will often provide you with simple assistance on request due to some combination of adoration, respect, or fear (depending on your religion), and even other clergy must give your opinions due consideration in matters of disagreement. You gain a +2 bonus to Diplomacy and Intimidate checks against lay followers and lower ranking clergy.
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In PF2E, if backgrounds are unchanged I'll probably house rule them to be more like Starfinder's themes. Remove their influence on character stats and give them some minor neat abilities as you level up.
In 5e I didn’t feel that backgrounds were that interesting. Particularly when you’re playing with any optimizers. You end up with an entire party of sailors/pirates. Works on the Sword Coast I guess but weird otherwise. It’s just flatly better than the other backgrounds.This becomes more of a risk the more mechanical benefits accrue to Backgrounds (since one set of benefits will inevitably be better). As long as one Skill Feat isn't a 'must have' the current ones are low impact enough that it's pretty unlikely at the moment. One of several reasons I actually approve of how low impact they are at the moment.
Just want to chime in and say that supposed "min/maxers" who all take the sailor background in 5E haven't read the background chapter closely enough. In 5E, ALL backgrounds are 100% customizable. It's baked into the rules on backgrounds that you can swap ANY skill that's part of a background for any other skill, and any language/tool proficiency for any other language/tool proficiency. You can even swap the background feature for any other background feature. Backgrounds in 5e are 100% modular, so this really shouldn't be happening. Any min/maxer worth his/her salt should know this.
EDIT: In my opinion, 5E backgrounds work better than PF2 Playtest backgrounds for precisely this reason. They work as a way to streamline character creation for newer players/players who don't care about min/maxing, while allowing the more experienced players and the min/maxers to customize to their hearts content. And they're low impact enough that there's no noticeable difference in power level between those who decide to customize their background and those who don't.
Magus is playable from the get go with the new proficiency rules. At level 1 you are only losing 1 accuracy if you are wielding an unproficient weapon as a wizard/sorc. Or you can just use one of the weapons you are proficient with.
Doesn’t a 1st level character get +3 (1 level, 2 trained) vs +0 for untrained weapons?
Simply having the background step say "Come up with your character's backstory. Take two attribute boosts and a skill feat and lore skill that are appropriate to this backstory." Would do the exact same thing and wouldn't require reading through a list of dozens of backgrounds to find one that kind of fits what you had in mind, and would free up space that could be used on something better.This might be true for some players. On the other hand, having a list and some flavor text helps out new players who might still be getting the hang of the concept of character backstories.
A background list also means that a new player learns about the setting or adventure path while building their character. The Doomsday Dawn backgrounds, for example, includes stuff like "Mind Quake Survivor" which provides a certain flavor that might not have been a consideration before.
I think there's room for "Boost two ability scores, choose a Lore, and select a skill feat" for those players who definitely know what they want, but having background selections serves as a more valuable teaching tool for the game, the setting, and individual campaigns.
It should be noted that the campaign backgrounds did affect what you got in Doomsday Dawn. For example, Goblin Renegade let you get additional information at the start, and Mind Quake Survivor gave bonuses any time a mind quake came up. (Those are the two big ones I remember, but I wouldn't be surprised if there were others.)
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Wayang Spellhunter and Magical Lineage should have been a feat. They're way too good to be traits. Traits really needed to be kept close to "+1 trait bonus and class skill", but that standard was never adhered to from the very outset.
I actually really like those class skill traits. They weren't really powerful, but did help fleshing out bits of my character backstory. Like my Ulfan barbarian. I got him one that gave Profession Sailor as a class skill to give more of the Viking feel of him being a sailor. The upcoming arcanist character has two strong traits, but I'm contemplating replacing one (probably the +2 initiative, the other is of course Magical Lineage it's just too good) with one to get Perform dance as a class skill, simply because I see her as a dancer. You do have to make a deliberate choice between flavor vs effectiveness. And If you take flavor you're giving yourself a handicap.
Simply having the background step say "Come up with your character's backstory. Take two attribute boosts and a skill feat and lore skill that are appropriate to this backstory." Would do the exact same thing and wouldn't require reading through a list of dozens of backgrounds to find one that kind of fits what you had in mind, and would free up space that could be used on something better.This might be true for some players. On the other hand, having a list and some flavor text helps out new players who might still be getting the hang of the concept of character backstories.
A background list also means that a new player learns about the setting or adventure path while building their character. The Doomsday Dawn backgrounds, for example, includes stuff like "Mind Quake Survivor" which provides a certain flavor that might not have been a consideration before.
I think there's room for "Boost two ability scores, choose a Lore, and select a skill feat" for those players who definitely know what they want, but having background selections serves as a more valuable teaching tool for the game, the setting, and individual campaigns.
Things like Mind Quake Survivor make more sense as a trait frankly. It shouldn't really matter to your stats or skill feat. And it's not really your characters background, it's only one small aspect. Traits lets you get one campaign related thing in addition to your actual background. It also replaces the core book backgrounds instead of supplementing them like it feels like a campaign trait should. We usually play with everyone having a campaign trait, if everyone had the background, then that feels a bit like it cuts into the freedom to fully define your character. When playing an AP all 80+ launch backgrounds will be ignored in favor of 6-8 from that AP. Seems unnecessarily limiting.
I kind of see it the other way around - design constraints can be fun. "Here is the spread of backgrounds for this AP, let's see what interesting characters we can come up with from them" sounds like something my group would have a blast with.
I can see that being pretty heavily table variance, though, so I do see your basic point.
Director of Game Design
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I should note that I have not gone thru these characters for rules accuracy just yet and these previews are based off the first drafts.
In other words, careful how much you read into them. They will be right by game time, but the previews might still be a little loose.
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I should note that I have not gone thru these characters for rules accuracy just yet and these previews are based off the first drafts.
In other words, careful how much you read into them. They will be right by game time, but the previews might still be a little loose.
What if they break out the puppy dog eyes?
And bribes?
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I actually really like those class skill traits. They weren't really powerful, but did help fleshing out bits of my character backstory. Like my Ulfan barbarian. I got him one that gave Profession Sailor as a class skill to give more of the Viking feel of him being a sailor. The upcoming arcanist character has two strong traits, but I'm contemplating replacing one (probably the +2 initiative, the other is of course Magical Lineage it's just too good) with one to get Perform dance as a class skill, simply because I see her as a dancer. You do have to make a deliberate choice between flavor vs effectiveness. And If you take flavor you're giving yourself a handicap.
Things like Mind Quake Survivor make more sense as a trait frankly. It shouldn't really matter to your stats or skill feat. And it's not really your characters background, it's only one small aspect. Traits lets you get one campaign related thing in addition to your actual background. It also replaces the core book backgrounds instead of supplementing them like it feels like a campaign trait should. We usually play with everyone having a campaign trait, if everyone had the background, then that feels a bit like it cuts into the freedom to fully define your character. When playing an AP all 80+ launch backgrounds will be ignored in favor of 6-8 from that AP. Seems unnecessarily limiting.
It doesn't follow that choosing a campaign background locks you out of having whatever generic narrative background (ie, backstory) you want. You can be a blacksmith who is also a mindquake survivor. You just only write one down on your character sheet.
Similarly, picking a campaign trait didn't lock you out of any particular flavor choice that you could have picked with the trait instead. Having a second trait doesn't REALLY improve things in any regard, because there might always be a third trait you would want instead.
Backgrounds can also be useful for those who aren't 100% sure what they want when they start making a character. They could peruse the list of backgrounds, see one like Former Slave and think "Ooh, that looks interesting, I'll play that and see how it goes."
I guess I need to go watch the video. Someone is playing a lizardfolk? It seems odd that they would allow a non-core player race in a preview game for 2e.
The "stated" goal of Oblivion Oath stream is not technically to preview 2e. Jason talks about this in the first announcement. To put it simply, they just want to have fun playing.
I am by no means saying that it is not "also" a preview of 2e, just that the preview aspect was not the stated goal.
Did anybody bother to make a character in the playtest who multiclasses through retraining?
Playtest retraining was still very fuzzy and dependent on GM permission. WAY too many rules in the playtest were like that.