My PC will be killed by Fireballs while trying to eat the party. Help all of us survive.

[Kimera757]

My PC is a good-aligned brawler, and has no intention of trying to kill the party. Unfortunately he got bitten by a wererat, and nobody knows he has been infected. Worse, he was bitten on a full moon, so it's been an entire month in-game since he recovered from his stat damage. We all have confidence in the cleric who failed the Heal check and so doesn't know what is about to happen.

Well, it's been a month. The moon was almost full last session. We're doing a hard encounter, so it's possible the brawler or other PCs might die, but assuming we all survive, we have some problems.

I believe you can use a lethal weapon non-lethally at -4 to hit, but for flavor reasons I think that should only apply to bludgeoning weapons. The cleric, naturally, has one. I don't think you can use an arrow or thrown bomb non-lethally under any circumstance, nor can you do this with most kinds of damaging magic, unless the spell specifically says so.

We're 5th-level, except for the alchemist (4th-level).

I've been reading up on Warhammer skaven behavior, and will emulate one while bonkers.

PCs are:

My brawler, no archetype. Just recently got his hands on a +4 Strength-boosting item, which is ridiculous on a 5th-level PC. But then he doesn't have a magic weapon, so I guess it's not that ridiculous. I don't know how many brawler class abilities I will get to keep, if any, while turning into a wererat for the first time. I do know I will not be able to make the Constitution check (DC 20 to turn back into a human, with a -5 penalty because it's a full moon, and he has a Con of 12, or 14 while a wererat). I don't know why all afflicted werecreatures seem to get the same stat boosts either, although fortunately wererats aren't that powerful.

I suspect the GM will tell me to randomly target PCs, but IMO a hungry animal would avoid anyone who is wearing inedible metal armor.

Cleric, who is using a feat that gives him access to warpriest blessings. He said he had a blessing that can daze an opponent for one round, requiring a touch attack but allowing no saving throw. I like to think this is the best way to keep my PC alive and also keep the rest of the PCs from injury, except daze doesn't render my PC unconscious, and there really isn't a lot of melee in the party other than my character, who will be "enjoying" DR 5/silver. There are spells the cleric could use, but doesn't normally do so, and likely wouldn't prepare without metagaming, such as the Command spell. He has quick manacles (along with my PC) which we have frequently used to capture NPCs rather than kill them in combat. As a 5th-level cleric he cannot revive the dead.

Wizard, elf, who is an evocation specialist. He can dish out a Fireball dealing 7d6 damage with a Reflex DC of 21, I believe, and could cast it as many as three times. Enchantment is one of his forbidden schools, and he doesn't use defensive spells except Mage Armor and Shield. He does not use Mirror Image, which is a much better idea (why bother escalating AC... he will never win that battle against combative monsters; even if the brawler uses Blind-Fight, the miss chance is still 50% if he used Mirror Image). Even if he has Mage Armor and Shield up, the brawler might hit him anyway, and with my build (I have Improved Trip and Vicious Stomp) if I get into melee with the wizard it's all over for him. That's ignoring the 1/day Knockout Blow and his low hit points. Furthermore Fireball is not useful to him if I'm close to the other PCs when I go bonkers. On the worse side for me, under optimal circumstances the wizard's Fireball will literally burn through my hit points. There's enough damage my PC would be permanently dead.

Unchained summoner, gnome. I don't believe he wears armor, or maybe leather armor. He's also small enough my PC could literally pick him up and run away with him. He has an eidolon who rivals my PC in damage with a lethal greatsword, and just developed the ability to fly. It doesn't wear armor, as the summoner puts Mage Armor on him, so he'd make a good "meal" for the bonkers wererat. The summoner has Pit Trap as a spell, which is non-lethal but my brawler is good at climbing. Probably not good enough though. Also the summoner knows Glitterdust. Neither of them seem to match a summoner's flavor, but at the moment I'm grateful due to the non-lethal options they provide. (Grease matches, but the DC is so low my brawler would have no real trouble with this. He has trained in Acrobatics and has an item that gives +5 to that.)

Alchemist, 4th-level, half-elf, no archetype that I'm aware of. Bombs deal lots of lethal damage. I think there might be some "sticky" bombs. He's also decently skilled at throwing rocks and using a bow. He does wear a chain shirt and, of course, avoids melee.

We also have some companions who sometime adventure with us.

"Red", a decently high-level fighter/ex-monk combo (I think that's his class combo, based on observation and what he has said). He's the leader of some hoodlums we're temporarily aligned with. Hopefully he really is an ex-monk, as they can strike non-lethally at no penalty. I don't recall if he wears armor, and if so, what type. (And if he wears armor, that will hurt his monk abilities.)

Samaritha, a wizard. She has some control spells. She rarely leaves the area of the main camp, so whether she's present depends on where the party is when night falls. She has few hit points, and I desperately hope she ends up nowhere near my character when he freaks out.

Kwavas (spelling?), an elf ranger. He is still relevant in combat, despite being 4th-level and having few items. Unfortunately arrows deal lethal damage, and he can fire two per round with Rapid Shot. His bow is mighty, +1, and he has Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot. He doesn't wear metal armor, but it's doubtful he'd be closer to me than any other unarmored character. For plot reasons he travels with us more often, but there's no guarantee he will be present.

Fetch, a dog with Intelligence 3, and a level or two of fighter. He has the ability to knock opponents prone, but my brawler has high CMD. Fetch's teeth probably aren't capable of dealing non-lethal damage. He does wear metal barding, and my character (along with the summoner) really like him, so I hope no harm comes to him. He understands Common, but cannot speak to anyone unless Kwavas uses Speak with Animals.

At the end of all this, I hope nobody dies, and then they'll have to "fix" me. The only treatment I've seen that would work is wolfsbane, which is not located in our area (far from civilization) and only gives me an extra saving throw. I have a pretty cruddy Fortitude save for a fighting type. Putting the bonkers thing aside, I have little appetite for essentially playing a frenzied berserker (with the bonus of higher stats but attacking the party), and I have no idea how ECL works in Pathfinder.

Mainly I'm just worried about how the combat will go. The brawler is dangerous enough he could probably easily beat down Samaritha, the PC wizard, or the PC summoner, but at the same time the party has a lot of ranged lethal and magical damage that could pierce, blast, or roast the brawler to death, and some limited amount of control.

[Secret Wizard]

Any weapon can be used to hit nonlethally, in real life. However, you can't really hit nonlethally in real life either.

A strike with a sap can cause concussion and death or permanent brain damage.

If you are trying to emulate real life, making only bludgeoning weapons be able to deal nonlethal damage is pretty dumb.

Dextrous swordfighters should be able to cut their enemies without piercing them, to perhaps have them bleed into unconsciousness.

So just use weapons used to hit nonlethally. Don't try to out simulate a simulation. You end up making it less realistic.

[Magda Luckbender]

That's a large group. They have an 8:1 action economy advantage against your wererat if they think to use it. Hope your allies decide to grapple! A coordinated group grapple is 100% likely to quickly & safely subdue wererat you. Your allies will need to think outside the box and completely ignore their usual class abilities, which are mostly useless in this situation anyway. They probably won't think to do this, unless one ally with a forceful personality thinks of it and convinces the others.

After this event, if you survive, perhaps your PC can drill the group in this technique for taking prisoners, so the group is better prepared next time. Grappling is a far more effective way to subdue or capture someone than is whacking them at -4 for nonlethal damage. Also, wererats are immune to non-silver nonlethal attacks but are not immune to grappling.

For example, six allies all grapple you. The Wizard and Summoner hang back and assist with spells, instead of grappling. Five allies take the Aid Another action to help the best grappler (probably 'Red' the monk or perhaps the eidolon). That single grappler is looking at an extra +10 to CMB (from the assists) so will always win each grappling move. Round One they grapple you. Round two they knock you to ground. Round three they pin you. Round four they tie you up. Round five they thoroughly hogtie and gag you. So long as multiple allies grapple you then your [out of control] PC has near zero chance to escape or cause any serious harm.

The best part of your allies attempting a group grapple is that the GM will probably rule your wererat tries to escape the grapple, rather than biting. Every round the wererat tries to escape the grapple is a turn it's not biting. This is where your group could leverage their 8:1 numbers. If they think to do so. If your GM insists the wererat tries to bite, instead of trying to break the grapple and escape, that's OK too.

For these reasons, group grappling is the smartest and most effective way for your group to quickly and safely subdue your PC. Your biggest problem is that most players won't consider grappling as an option, and might not understand the [core, basic] mechanics involved. Spending an action to Aid Another for +2 to hit seems like a waste until you realize there are 8 of you and 1 of them.

P.s. Coordinated group grappling is a real thing. Guards at mental health hospitals routinely train to do this, as it's a highly effective way to subdue someone without harming them. I've done it myself. Japanese police routinely use this technique to subdue citizens without harming them [Youtube: Japanese police group-grapple and burrito-wrap a violent man].

[Magda Luckbender]

P.P.s. Here's a band of PCs capturing an undead wight via coordinated group grappling. [Youtube: Game of Thrones] . Observe how they deal with the bite attack.

P.P.P.s. If you feel like metagaming a little in a way that maintains plausible deniability, perhaps ensure your friends see that video a few days before the session. They're more likely to think of this approach if that video is fresh in their mind ...

[Dave Justus]

The only cure available to you at this point is a 12 level or higher cleric casting remove curse on you while transformed. Most likely this will be difficult, if not impossible to get in any reasonable time frame.

The simple fact is, that while it would add to the expense, it would be easier to raise you from the dead then to cure your lycanthropy. If your party gets a chance, their best solution is probably to go all all and take you down as soon as possible. If they take you below zero, but not negative con, all well and good but if they don't it isn't a huge loss anyway. Under no circumstances should they mess around, as every round they are in danger of another party member contracting the curse.

Lycanthropes don't become mindless hungry beasts, they are just as smart as they were before being transformed (although the new personality will subsume yours) and can certainly plan and think. Wererats in particular are noted for being cautious. It is certainly unlikely that your character would blindly attack the party. Most likely he would, if possible, try and turn one or two at a time, with the goal of eventually getting the entire party to be wererats (and hence be 'safe'.) Your character would still have all brawler abilities as well as as much cunning and trickery as you have.

If I was a wererat and corned by a party that I knew would try and take me alive for a cure, I would absolutely try and bite as many as possible. Unless they act quickly, I will have allies next month.

You might have a chat with the GM on where he is expecting this to go. Unless he comes up with a powerful NPC cleric to help you out it is most likely that either your PC will be unplayable or the entire party becomes wererats (the latter could be a really fun game.)

[Adjoint]

If you want to use spell nonlethaly, get a merciful metamagic rod.

[Meirril]

The good news is you shouldn't have to fight your party.

Because when you contract Lycanthrope you are suppose to be a NPC when the night of the full moon comes. If the GM makes you play that character I find it very questionable.

On the one hand it sucks loosing control of your character, but it sucks even more fighting your own party since you either feel bad or you hold back. It is a lot cleaner for the NPC to just take over the character till the forced transformation ends and you regain your character till the next full moon.

[Magicdealer]

I just noticed this line, " I don't know why all afflicted werecreatures seem to get the same stat boosts either, although fortunately wererats aren't that powerful." and wanted to point out that it's not exactly true.

In hybrid or animal form, you take the highest ability score between yourself and the base animal.

As for your problem, it's not as big of a problem as you might suggest. The wizard can use a few burning hands instead of a fireball, or the alchemist can bomb you and let the wizard magic missile you the rest of the way down. The summoner can blind you, or grease the walls of the pit spell to make it harder for you to climb out. The eidolon can strike with the flat of their blades to deal nonlethal damage, or simply bullrush you repeatedly into the pit.

Your party has plenty of options to beat you down before using more controlled methods to drop you unconscious.

The real problem is that you have no idea if they'll use them.

The party wakes up to a scream, a creature is chewing on one of them, maybe they notice you're gone. Maybe they connect the fight a month ago and realize you're the animal. Maybe they don't, or think that one of them followed the party and just caught up, and just decide to kill you.

Your party definitely has the capability to restrain you, but whether or not they DO is table and rp dependent.

[Bjørn Røyrvik]

Secret Wizard wrote:

Dextrous swordfighters should be able to cut their enemies without piercing them, to perhaps have them bleed into unconsciousness.

You can't cut without piercing the target.

Someone unconscious from blood loss is in serious danger of dying.

[Cavall]

Doesnt matter. -4 to not use the edge and do non lethal. Rules are clear, just use them

[Ryze Kuja]

Make sure your group has access to Hold Person, or at least a Wand of Hold Person

[Kimera757]

This suddenly exploded. Thank you.

Magda Luckbender wrote:

Grappling is a far more effective way to subdue or capture someone than is whacking them at -4 for nonlethal damage. Also, wererats are immune to non-silver nonlethal attacks but are not immune to grappling.

They're immune to non-silver nonlethal? The hell? Well... grapple it is (or rather, grapple it should be). We did a ridiculous coordinated grapple once, against a will o wisp (once we realize it was not insubstantial). I'm the best grappler in the party, but the eidolon is probably only marginally weaker, and will have all those buddies. (We put the wisp into my cooking pot and used it to try to kill "Red's" boss. Honestly, him not trying to murder us on sight told us he had been charmed. He's currently locked up.)

I linked the video to the Facebook group.

Ryze Kuja wrote:

Make sure your group has access to Hold Person, or at least a Wand of Hold Person

The cleric technically could prepare this spell, but has never used it before.

[I am Nemesis]

Ryze Kuja wrote:

Make sure your group has access to Hold Person, or at least a Wand of Hold Person

Hold Person won't work. Your type technically has/will change to shape changer. Your one of the monsters now. You'd need hold monster.

[Dave Justus]

Some situations call for grapple. I wouldn't do it with this one though. You are looking at multiple chances for PCs to get bitten and it being worse next month....

[Ryze Kuja]

I am Nemesis wrote:

Ryze Kuja wrote:

Make sure your group has access to Hold Person, or at least a Wand of Hold Person

Hold Person won't work. Your type technically has/will change to shape changer. Your one of the monsters now. You'd need hold monster.

Wererats are still considered humanoid even while in Hybrid form and Hold Person affects any humanoid target, and Hold Monster is any living creature. Hold Monster and Hold Person would both work.

Wererat wrote:

Wererat (Hybrid Form)
CR 2
XP 600
Human natural wererat rogue 2 ( augmented humanoid)
LE Medium humanoid (human, shapechanger)
Init +3; Senses low-light vision, scent; Perception +8

Hold Person wrote:

Hold Person

School enchantment (compulsion) [mind-affecting]; Level antipaladin 2, bard 2, bloodrager 3, cleric/oracle 2, inquisitor 2, shaman 2, sorcerer/wizard 3, medium 2, mesmerist 2, occultist 3, psychic 2, witch 2

CASTING

Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, F/DF (a small, straight piece of iron)

EFFECT

Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target one humanoid creature
Duration 1 round/level (D); see text
Saving Throw Will negates; see text; Spell Resistance yes [/b]

[Magda Luckbender]

Dave Justus wrote:

Some situations call for grapple. I wouldn't do it with this one though. You are looking at multiple chances for PCs to get bitten and it being worse next month....

Dave has a good point. Wererat bites are extremely dangerous, as y'all have learned the hard way. However they take you out, they'd best do it without getting bit.

Hold Person (2nd level) won't work on a non-person wererat, but Command (1st level) will. Hopefully between them your allies have some way to shut you down long enough for your allies to safely take you out, one way or another.

Once you turn it takes high level cleric magic to save you. It's much easier to fix lycanthropy before your first change. So that healer who misdiagnosed you really messed things up. Next time get a 2nd opinion.

The biggest factor in how this goes down is whether not not your allies notice your first change. If you are furtive about it and sneak off for your first change that'll be bad. If the GM makes your first change loud and traumatic, possibly with screaming and low budget special effects, then the party will be warned and should have a much easier time handling you.

P.s. I lied when I said, "immune to ...". I should have said, "highly resistant to".

[Ryze Kuja]

I would think that Hold Person would still work on a Wererat even while he's shapechanged because he's still technically a Humanoid Creature.

[BENSLAYER]

Ryze Kuja wrote:

I would think that Hold Person would still work on a Wererat even while he's shapechanged because he's still technically a Humanoid Creature.

^ I agree :

Sources:

Lycanthrope, Werewolf (Hybrid Form) wrote:

SQ change shape (human, hybrid, and wolf; polymorph), lycanthropic empathy (wolves and dire wolves)

Universal Monster Rules wrote:

Change Shape (Su)

Source Bestiary 6 pg. 291, Pathfinder RPG Bestiary pg. 298, Bestiary 2 pg. 295, Bestiary 3 pg. 293, Bestiary 4 pg. 291, Bestiary 5 pg. 291
The creature has the ability to assume the appearance of a specific creature or type of creature (usually a humanoid), but retains most of its own physical qualities. A creature cannot change shape to a form more than one size category smaller or larger than its original form unless noted otherwise. This ability functions as a polymorph spell, the type of which is listed in the creature’s description, but the creature does not adjust its ability scores (although it gains any other abilities of the creature it mimics). Some creatures, such as lycanthropes, can transform into unique forms with special modifiers and abilities. These creatures do adjust their ability scores, as noted in their description.

Format: change shape (wolf; beast form I)
Location: SQ, and in Special Abilities for creatures with a unique listing.

Polymorph Effects do not state that they alter Type, just that they alter the form/shape of the Target. The only additional changes that Lycanthropes have are Ability Modifiers and possibly Special Abilities; the entries do not mention Type changes as part of a unique form, (only an addition of the Shapechanger Subtype).

[I am Nemesis]

Magda Luckbender wrote:

Hold Person (2nd level) won't work on a non-person wererat, but Command (1st level) will. Hopefully between them your allies have some way to shut you down long enough for your allies to safely take you out, one way or another.

Once you turn it takes high level cleric magic to save you. It's much easier to fix lycanthropy before your first change. So that healer who misdiagnosed you really messed things up. Next time get a 2nd opinion.

Ryze Kuja wrote:

I would think that Hold Person would still work on a Wererat even while he's shapechanged because he's still technically a Humanoid Creature.

problem is while your human(oid) you can be held. once your first change completes, your freed from hold person because your type changed to shape-changer, and therefore no longer humanoid. just like hold person wouldn't work on a monstrous humanoid. And that's why we have Hold Monster.

A lot of tables may let it go due to lack of awareness of the spells workings. Reading the thread, i get the impression the DM and the OP are the only ones that know what's about to happen.

in my game, i'd say after the first change your type is always shape-changer, giving you dr 5/silver and immunity to some spells even in human form. the downside is once a month you chew on your friends like their delicious cheese.

[Dave Justus]

A were rat, even it dire rat form, remains a humanoid with their original race and the shapechanger subtypes.

Hold person will work just fine.

Wererats are people too!

[Magda Luckbender]

@OP: We'd like to know how this turns out. Please post the story of what happens!

P.s. There seems to be table variation on Hold Person. I am ignorant as to the right answer. Perhaps go with something that's not in question, such as the lower level Command to 'Halt'. It's not like there's a big tactical difference between a Halted wererat and a Held (helpless) wererat when the odds are eight to one.

P.P.s. Experienced lycanthrope fighters tend to assume that anyone bit by a lycanthrope is infected. They'll administer the cure automatically the day after combat. Better safe than sorry. That's probably what the OPs party should do, going forward.

[Dave Justus]

Magda Luckbender wrote:

P.P.s. Experienced lycanthrope fighters tend to assume that anyone bit by a lycanthrope is infected. They'll administer the cure automatically the day after combat. Better safe than sorry. That's probably what the OPs party should do, going forward.

I expect that this particular party will be more cautious, but there isn't an easy cure. You need a 12th level cleric to be 'sure' and they don't have access to that. Wolfsbane gives a second save (if you have it), but that is certainly no guarantee.

And of course without sufficient knowledge they don't even know what they need, or necessarily that there is a danger.

A 5th level party far from civilization doesn't really have much that they can do.

[Cavall]

Well. We call all agree on one thing. After this there will be little argument that they arent experianced lycanthrope fighters.

[Whisperer in Darkness]

you seem to have a strategic problem and a tactical one (aside from all of the party becoming wererats).
Obviously mithral, silvered, and weapon blanch will work to bypass DR on basic shapechangers. Most have in mind to do non-lethal at -4 to hit or via grappling. Grappling damage can be lethal or non-lethal without any penalty and regardless of class.

Probably the simplest tactics will prove themselves in combat through successful application of full damage to the target.

I'd agree that action economy makes this combat a foregone conclusion.

yaknow - if nobobdy in your party knows or totally believes that this condition has been eliminated then this is all a metagaming simulation. Otherwise simple chains or manacles could bypass the need for this combat entirely. Your cleric should have you on a tonic of anti-lycanthropy just in case bad things happen. At best you just spend several nights around the full moon in a sickened condition.