A couple observations to consider for next edition


General Discussion


1. Please limit the effects of intelligence on skill points: Does it really make narrative sense that a wizard with poor strength eventually outperforms the barbarian in terms of physical skill checks due to sheer number of skill points he has at higher levels, all the while still functioning as a completely competent mage? Because that happens.

2. To position oneself in combat or to disengage/runaway, base speeds cannot be lower than 25 feet (5 squares) and the average speed of normal humanoids cannot have more than a five foot difference. If it is common to encounter standard humanoid races whose base speed exceeds your character by 10 feet or more, compensating for the speed difference in order to run away takes the equivalent of two feats. That handicaps the character in terms of what classes he can viably play. Being limited to only four squares of movement makes flanking or positioning impractical, and tactical minded enemies can literally run circles around those characters.

While anecdotal, all my experienced players stopped playing halflings, dwarves, and gnomes after a few sessions due to combat literally slowing down or going south due to issues with movement speed. I've usually helped players by giving them boots of striding and springing if they're playing smaller races, but it really shouldn't be a requirement. Most of the enemies giving them issues with positioning and movement were just standard goblins and orcs. Think of it this way: If the encounter were against a group of goblin skirmishers who know they are fighting dwarves that are too slow to keep up with them, what are they more likely to do: engage the dwarves in melee or kite them while shooting?

Liberty's Edge

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Uh...have you looked at the playtest at all?

Because Skill Points as such no longer exist, with Intelligence still effecting how many you get, but not remotely in a way that makes a smart guy better at climbing than a strong one (specifically, Intelligence can make you have additional Skills, but not increase them beyond a baseline level...so high Int people have a broader skill base but aren't better at them).

And speed differentials still exist, and even range between 20 (for Dwarves) and 30 (for Elves), but default Humans have a movement of 25.

Both of those facts seem unlikely to change for the final version.


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I'll note that only dwarves and people in medium/heavy armor are actually that slow now.


Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

To add to that, having the option to move twice and attack makes a huge difference, especially if you have a big high damage weapon to make the one attack count.


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Yea. You can actually move 3 times in this game, if you so choose. Or move twice and attack once. So even a 20 ft move can move 40 and still hit.
Plus the thing about no more skill ranks.
You probably should have looked at the playtest PDF before posting.
But at least you know your concerns are alleviated.


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Being able to move multiple times does change things a bit. But It does also have some unintended effects making speed difference even more important. It means high-movement characters can effectively multiply their movement, making hit-and-run tactics a very doable thing with the playtest rules, attacks of opportunity being rarer impacts this as well. With a high speed you can move once, attack and then move away and your opponent will need at least two movement actions to catch back up with you. Especially with monsters with very high movement speeds, and other forms of movement like flight or high speed swimming. Add ranged attacks, and things can get really nasty really quickly. For example the Sea Serpent has a 90ft swim speed and a 100ft ranged attack. Given a large body of water, it can easy just swim away form the PCs and shoot them with their water-spout (which also does poisoning) from a range that the PCs aren't able to close in a round without some powerful swim buffs. Manticores aren't quite as rough as that, but still pretty nasty with a 40ft fly speed and a 40ft spine attack. It's very difficult for PCs to get flying at lower level, and when they do it's not quite that fast until high level, and last for a short period of time. A flying creature can easily just fly away and return after the 1 minute fly spell wears off.

De-nerfing buff spells and their durations will help, as that's the main way for PCs to get some comparable speed (well except Rocket-Elf monks, those suckers are fast without magic). And hopefully there will be a good hard look at monsters and rebalancing them with the three action system in mind. But at the same time, while this can be rough, I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing. It adds another option to highly mobile combat. It's just things need to be balanced with that in mind as opposed to the more static combats of PF1 where you can only move before or after an attack, not both, unless you have a feat or some other ability that allows it. Effects that reduce movement can also be very useful in these situations as well, although most seem to be tuned towards human level speed so wouldn't hamper that Sea Serpent (or high level Rocket-Elf monk) too much.


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Doktor Weasel wrote:
It means high-movement characters can effectively multiply their movement, making hit-and-run tactics a very doable thing with the playtest rules, attacks of opportunity being rarer impacts this as well. With a high speed you can move once, attack and then move away and your opponent

This is pretty much why SOME form of movement restriction needs to come back.

Not only is the above effective it's kind of the "optimal" play. As soon as you realize you have a speed advantage over the opponent, it makes sense to abuse it.

And from a monster perspective, almost all of them will have the advantage over the PCs if we only just count the alternate forms of movement they will possess that could go unanswered by the PCs (burrow, fly, swim, climb).

I still think there should be some global Disrupt reaction that stops movement, manipulate, and other comparable actions that can interrupt (albeit, don't give it damage, just interrupting the action).

That and treating threatened squares as Difficult Terrain.

As is, the current system is just the inverse of the Full-Attack cycle from 1E. The only real difference is that it lengthens combats significantly and it is limited by the environment you are in (which in an open plain, is not limited).

Now obviously fights don't occur in a vacuum, but nonetheless the "hit and run" tactics you speak of are a little on the strong side.

Not to mention the changes basically made Flanking almost a wasteful attempt for anyone that's a non-rogue and Step is also nearly as pointless (doesn't trigger Reactions, but if there's no "global" reaction available then it's considerably stronger to just use Stride).

Speed has become a lot more powerful, and given how difficult it is to increase Speed (and get alternate speeds at the moment) I can see the concerns for the base speed being a problem.


Midnightoker wrote:
Doktor Weasel wrote:
It means high-movement characters can effectively multiply their movement, making hit-and-run tactics a very doable thing with the playtest rules, attacks of opportunity being rarer impacts this as well. With a high speed you can move once, attack and then move away and your opponent

This is pretty much why SOME form of movement restriction needs to come back.

Not only is the above effective it's kind of the "optimal" play. As soon as you realize you have a speed advantage over the opponent, it makes sense to abuse it.

And from a monster perspective, almost all of them will have the advantage over the PCs if we only just count the alternate forms of movement they will possess that could go unanswered by the PCs (burrow, fly, swim, climb).

I still think there should be some global Disrupt reaction that stops movement, manipulate, and other comparable actions that can interrupt (albeit, don't give it damage, just interrupting the action).

That and treating threatened squares as Difficult Terrain.

As is, the current system is just the inverse of the Full-Attack cycle from 1E. The only real difference is that it lengthens combats significantly and it is limited by the environment you are in (which in an open plain, is not limited).

Now obviously fights don't occur in a vacuum, but nonetheless the "hit and run" tactics you speak of are a little on the strong side.

Not to mention the changes basically made Flanking almost a wasteful attempt for anyone that's a non-rogue and Step is also nearly as pointless (doesn't trigger Reactions, but if there's no "global" reaction available then it's considerably stronger to just use Stride).

Speed has become a lot more powerful, and given how difficult it is to increase Speed (and get alternate speeds at the moment) I can see the concerns for the base speed being a problem.

I dunno, there are a lot of mobility enhancers out there to help offset this. Sudden Charge means an enemy has to be quite a bit faster to escape a barbarian or fighter, and Sudden Leap means its pretty hard to fly out of their range, keeping in mind going up is half speed. Plus they have reactions that punish running. Rogues and Rangers have their own mobility tools and are pretty good for switching to range options when the situation calls for it. Casters of course always have their spells.

Also, while monsters can be fast, their best actions often don't allow for these sorts of tactics. Any sort of two action attack routine, for example, or strike > grab > constrict.

I think the only class I've seen really struggle with catching up with enemies has been the poor, plodding Paladin. I've mostly just seen this as a case study in why you should pack a good range weapon, and they do have AoO access, but mobility is definitely where the class lags behind its peers.

I also disagree that flanking isn't worth it. It is still the easiest way to get flat-footed, and a 20% DPR bump is awesome, even if you have to spend an action every round to reset it. Especially when it can also be given to your teammates.


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Midnightoker wrote:
Doktor Weasel wrote:
It means high-movement characters can effectively multiply their movement, making hit-and-run tactics a very doable thing with the playtest rules, attacks of opportunity being rarer impacts this as well. With a high speed you can move once, attack and then move away and your opponent

This is pretty much why SOME form of movement restriction needs to come back.

Not only is the above effective it's kind of the "optimal" play. As soon as you realize you have a speed advantage over the opponent, it makes sense to abuse it.

And from a monster perspective, almost all of them will have the advantage over the PCs if we only just count the alternate forms of movement they will possess that could go unanswered by the PCs (burrow, fly, swim, climb).

I still think there should be some global Disrupt reaction that stops movement, manipulate, and other comparable actions that can interrupt (albeit, don't give it damage, just interrupting the action).

That and treating threatened squares as Difficult Terrain.

As is, the current system is just the inverse of the Full-Attack cycle from 1E. The only real difference is that it lengthens combats significantly and it is limited by the environment you are in (which in an open plain, is not limited).

Now obviously fights don't occur in a vacuum, but nonetheless the "hit and run" tactics you speak of are a little on the strong side.

Not to mention the changes basically made Flanking almost a wasteful attempt for anyone that's a non-rogue and Step is also nearly as pointless (doesn't trigger Reactions, but if there's no "global" reaction available then it's considerably stronger to just use Stride).

Speed has become a lot more powerful, and given how difficult it is to increase Speed (and get alternate speeds at the moment) I can see the concerns for the base speed being a problem.

Good point about the Step action. I remember thinking that during the playtest too. It just seems like a wasted option. It still requires an action, and the only advantage it has over Stride is the lack of reaction triggers. Coming off of getting a free step to it being an action like everything else just doesn't sit well. Maybe they should go back to a Step being a free thing you can do every turn that doesn't take an action, but that does add some complexity and breaks the elegance of the three action system a bit.

Something like a Disrupt effect could be useful. Also improving some of the things that do Hampered effects could help slow things down more. Entangled is pretty weak currently, with regards to speed reduction. Maybe the flat check should apply to movement actions too? And terrain with some kind of entangle effect should be difficult terrain as well.

Improving ways for PCs to get speed bonuses and alternate movement types would also help. And letting effects last longer. It will also make ranged options more important, so more classes should have them, which I think is something that they already said they wanted to address with Paladin and Barbarian in particular not really having anything that works at range. Alchemists probably need a way to get more range off of their bombs too, which are on the short range side. Maybe the option to use them with a sling or a stone-bow type weapon to get more range at the expense of more actions for loading.

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