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Here are somethings to consider.
Slayer has 2 good saves and skip prereqs like Dex do it can have a more favorable point by. Study and sneak attack produce a greater amount of total damage then weapon training and dueling gloves. Many more skill points and study applies to important skills.
Fighter's can buff the most important save, will. Some extra feat but you get the best feats slower. Better use of armor. Though you have hig Dex so you will be in light so your not gain half the benefit of armor training. You can get a Mutagen and a familair by stacking archtypes this can help with offense or the familar can patch weak skills with the right archtypes.
What class would be better for a character starting out at level 10?
"Better" at what? Having the best attack-bonus? Doing the most damage on a hit? Being able to eat multiple crits in a round without face-planting? Best at romancing attractive NPCs?
Give us a goal to work with here.
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@OP: Why sword and board? You say you want to be an effective combatant, able to carry combats without much help from allies. Sword and board is generally (there are exceptions!) a weak combat build in Pathfinder. Both two-handed weapon fighters and the also-inferior dual-wielding approach inflict far more damage than sword-and-board.
Shields are great, historically and in actual combat, but they get little love in Pathfinder. Offense is far more valuable in pathfinder combat than defense. Swords are usually sidearms, and thus secondary weapons. The presence of a shield turns a sword into a primary weapon. Unfortunately, the Pathfinder (and 3.5) rules disparage shields. In my home-games I give shields +2 AC and some other minor benefits, in an attempt to make them competitive.
Can someone more knowledgeable than I please explain how one might make a sword-and-board build that's relatively effective in combat?
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Let's clear up somethings about pathfinder combat styles.
THW give 50% more strength and power attack times your number of attack The cost is accuracy an easy point of comparison if 4 bab because has a -2 to attack.
TWF you take a -2 to get an extra attack. You get 100% more weapon damage, 100% more static damage (sneak attack, study, weapon training favored enemy, inspire etc.) 50% more str, and double the crit chance. So, one THW attack at a -2 is worse than TWF if your total static damage from the extra sources I have outlined is greater than power attack.
Here is where it gets complicated to compare them power attack scales with level and the additional attacks, TWF does not without the addition of other feats. But for classes that get a lot of feats, you can add a lot more to a TWF build. Great TWF, double slice, two-weapon rend, accomplished sneak attacker, power attack for the accurate builds. With these, you gain further benefits from everything I outlined above and you penalty to hit never increases. A TWF builds with good static damage without performing most THW builds that are not designed to generate extra attacks. Hateful and outflank paired opportunist are good examples.
With that, how do you make sword and board work?
There are two feats and a rogue talent that make the slayer the king of sword and board.
Shield master:
Having a shield makes you much more efficient in the AC arms race. A shield provides AC and adds a second enhancement slot that is tied for cheapest to upgrade. This feat also turns this money saver into a free weapon upgrade. Which means you will always have top tier weapons and AC. While people are buying rings or protection you're buying shield enhancements at half the price that double as weapon enhancements. If there is a weapon enhancement you want, you can add that too it just has to be different than the standard +1s and goes in the normal weapon slot.
Bashing Finish:
Using a Kukri or Scimitar (Keen or improved crit) this becomes another source of extra attacks. When you crit you get to make a shield bash. This is good for all the reasons the more attacks are good.
Next you want an advanced rogue talent Opportunist:
This becomes another source of extra attacks. This is good for all the reasons the more attacks are good.
Other points: heavy shields and scimatars can be two-handed when you need to do so but you still have study and sneak attack for extra damage. Two weapon rend is another 'attack'.
Overall the build is feat intensive but because so many feats add significantly to damage the build really excels. Because it is a slayer it is easy to fill some out of combat rolls because of the number of skill points and study bonuses, some magicy stuff from rogue talents or archetypes, and even social stuff as a Turncoat.
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@JuliusCromwell: You can only edit posts for one hour. It's a short thread, though, and you're the OP, so maybe just continue from here. Alternately, you the OP could could say something like "I'm closing this thread. Discussion continues in [ url = "URL of new thread"] This Other Post. Thread closed. [ / url ] ".
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@Magda Luckbender Other thing that can make a slayer a better TWF is the fact that study target gives the bonus to hit and damage on each attack AND they get sneak attack which applies to both hits if you are flanking. Honestly the best way to go sword and shield imo
I made a sword and board fighter. Granted it was for the Sanguine Angel prestige class, so without fighter weapon training in Heavy Blades you get locked into a bunch of sub-par options.
I did it interesting though, with the Thunderstriker archtype to use a buckler with a longsword two-handed, then free action you swap between two weapon fighting and intense Power Attacks with Cornugon Smash and Signature Skill Intimidate to proc the Merciless Massacre.
@OP: Why sword and board? You say you want to be an effective combatant, able to carry combats without much help from allies. Sword and board is generally (there are exceptions!) a weak combat build in Pathfinder.
Any class that piles up numeric bonuses to damage makes a very good S&B build. And S&B generally offers the highest AC, keeping attrition in the player's court rather than relying on everything going his way, or allied support saving his bacon at any given moment. E.g., most builds don't have room for the likes of Weapon Specialization, but a fairly straight-laced fighter is doing +5 damage with every swat past 6th or so (when he picks up Gloves), numbers he can roll over to his shield if he picked a WT group with that shield in it. He'll be TWFing at a higher attack-bonus than most builds without a penalty.
Technically, two-handing a weapon and getting the bonus of a shield is possible with the quick draw feat and a quick draw shield with a one-handed weapon that may be two-handed (e.g. longsword). Of course, AoO will be weaker. Then there are two other ways: shield brace (alas, not for Pathfinder Society as I understand it) and unhindering shield.
If you’re starting at level 10, then probably the fighter, assuming you have access to advanced weapon training and maybe advanced armor training. Those options can give you a lot of pseudo-skills and increase your combat ability too.
The slayer is mostly good for dips. Like, going from deliverer archetype to Crimson Templar prestige could be a really fun and fairly strong sword and board option.
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Advanced wepaon training has serious problems for a fighter. First you are using two weapons so one set of attacks loses weapon thing if you take your advanced weapon trian option. This is a huge hit to damage and accuracy over the slayer.
Next if you take it. To suck less at skills you are giving up much more powerful options like improving your will or ref save. Becuase of the rule below you will likely be locked into light blades, heaven blades, or close. They are ok but you lose choice give up one of you best class features to still be much worse.
Beginning at 9th level, instead of selecting an additional fighter weapon group, a fighter can choose an advanced weapon training option for one fighter weapon group that he previously selected with the weapon training class feature.
At this level you can take the advanced weapon train feat twice which helps. You your still going to want you normal second group to allow you to use weapon training on a second group of weapons. Ultimately if you are trying to optimize the fighter at thsi level you have 2 AWT and one should be used for your will save.
Advanced wepaon training has serious problems for a fighter. First you are using two weapons so one set of attacks loses weapon thing if you take your advanced weapon trian option. This is a huge hit to damage and accuracy over the slayer.
AWT:Weapon Specialist lets you spread your feats over an entire WT group. This means TWF S&B fighters can really motor.
Slayers have their advantages over fighters, but output isn't it.
What weapon group contains both a shield and a good 1h weapon? Shields are just in the close group, but I don't think there's a good 1h weapon in that group other than the waveblade (which is exotic). We can move anything into whatever group with versatile design, but that's going to cost a feat because shields are martial weapons.
Even beyond weapon groups, things like "weapon focus" kind of make "board and board" more appealing than "sword and board" most of the time. I've kind of wanted to make a "twf with dwarven warshields" character for a while.
What weapon group contains both a shield and a good 1h weapon? Shields are just in the close group, but I don't think there's a good 1h weapon in that group other than the waveblade (which is exotic).If an extra +5 isn't elevating just about anything to the status of "good" (and waveblades are already scary good as a wakazashi-class Piranha Strike-ready light weapon that's also in the monk group if you have some multiclass flurry action going on), then Focused Weapon certainly will. (And, here's the real awesome sauce: since AWT feats are also combat feats, that means you can select Focused Weapon as one of your picks for the purposes of Weapon Specialist, and roll the bigger base die over to your second weapon as well.)
Even beyond weapon groups, things like "weapon focus" kind of make "board and board" more appealing than "sword and board" most of the time. I've kind of wanted to make a "twf with dwarven warshields" character for a while.
On paper those look like fun, but they're a complete PITA to equip and remove. (One of the unsung benefits of an ordinary weapon is that you can drop it as a free action should you need to.) Now if your GM let's you get away with combining a DWS and a light quicdraw shield, now we're talking.
Aside from that, you're not rocking a 15-20 threat-range with a shield bash.
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The answer to 'you have to spend advanced/ second wepaon training on a second group' is not spend it expanding the first group and then use a worse weapon.
Nor does dip monk and use a wave blade because then you need to spend another feat on unhinder shield just to get the bonus and you can't flurry with it.
There are no "worse" weapons with Focused Weapon, and you don't need to be a monk to use the waveblade (not that you'd need a reason to use the waveblade if all you want from it is an extended threat-range -- available with an ordinary kukri which will become d6/d8/d10/2d6 base die as soon as you pick up Focused Weapon.
Clarification: In my last post, it may have been implied that kukris are in the Close weapon group since waveblades were also being discussed. They are (unfortunately) not.
can some one help me with feats for this build
going Human fighter, Advance weapon Training / Armor Training
I'll get you close (but only close, because I am an incorrigible multiclasser):
Stats: STR>[DEX=CON=WIS]>INT>CHA
Traits: Accelerated Drinker, Birthmark
01 Fighter1 (core) [Feat:Shield Focus], EWP:Waveblade
02 Brawler1 (core, or Mutagenic Mauler) [Martial Flexibility, or not]
03 Fighter2 [Feat: Weapon Focus:Waveblade], Piranha Strike or Power Attack
04 Brawler2 [Feat: Weapon Specialization:Waveblade][Brawler's Flurry]
Goodies list:
* Acrobatics, Escape Artist, Perception added to class skills.
* flurry with close and/or monk weapons regardless of heavy armor or dexterity
* per monk, make all your attacks with only one weapon while flurrying.
* per monk, full STR damage to all attacks during a flurry
Damage: 2x [1d6+1(magic)+(STR)+2(WSpec)+(2, if PS or PA)]
A straight fighter at this point will be similar, but with Two Weapon Fighting (and the dexterity required to meet it by 4th), higher expenses (since he actually needs to use two weapons), and lower damage (lack of full strength bonus on off-hand attack sans Double Slice, lack of mutagen, usage of shield as off-hand weapon with poor crit-range). He also won't be able to pull any qualified-for combat feat out of thin air as a move-action four times per day.
05 Fighter3 [Armor Training+1], FEAT(g)
06 Fighter4 [Feat: Lunge]
07 Fighter5 [Weapon Training +1], FEAT(g)
Most would consider fighter a front-loaded class due to early feats; it's actually an end-loaded class because it takes awhile for Weapon Training bonuses to accumulate, and for you to acquire the WBL to afford good gear. Essentially, there's no need to race Weapon Training until you're picking up Gloves of Dueling coincident.
08 Fighter6 [FEAT(c)
09 Fighter7 [Armor Training +2], FEAT(g)
10 Fighter8 [FEAT(c)
As this is still a mid-level character, there is not yet a great impetus to transition from flurrying to true TWFing because the utility of a BAB6th+ fourth attack (fifth if hasted, and being hasted is easily arranged dependent upon one's choice of footwear) isn't that great, especially since Weapon Finesse + TWF + ITWF + Double Slice + Shield Slam + Improved Shield Bash + Shield Master (11th) is a humongous dangdiddly pile of feats I'd as soon avoid rather than being straightjacketed in one-trick-ponydom rather than being free to toss a half-dozen feats at a second or even third mechanic (such as archery, a Style chain, "Intimimancy", etc).
~ ~ ~
Oddly enough, since this particular build tactic doesn't rely on shield-bashing for its extra attacks, there isn't any great hurry to acquire AWT:Weapon Specialist, and the build could even treat dexterity as a junk stat at creation if it never takes "true" TWF. You have five feats and one Armor Training option to play with. Focused Weapon makes the waveblade a d10 weapon at 10th (so 2d6 after chugging a potion of Enlarge Person with Accelerated Drinker), but you might not consider it worth taking before then.
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Clarification: In my last post, it may have been implied that kukris are in the Close weapon group since waveblades were also being discussed. They are (unfortunately) not.can some one help me with feats for this build
going Human fighter, Advance weapon Training / Armor TrainingI'll get you close (but only close, because I am an incorrigible multiclasser):
Stats: STR>[DEX=CON=WIS]>INT>CHA
Traits: Accelerated Drinker, Birthmark
01 Fighter1 (core) [Feat:Shield Focus], EWP:Waveblade
02 Brawler1 (core, or Mutagenic Mauler) [Martial Flexibility, or not]
03 Fighter2 [Feat: Weapon Focus:Waveblade], Piranha Strike or Power Attack
04 Brawler2 [Feat: Weapon Specialization:Waveblade][Brawler's Flurry]Goodies list:
* Acrobatics, Escape Artist, Perception added to class skills.
* flurry with close and/or monk weapons regardless of heavy armor or dexterity
* per monk, make all your attacks with only one weapon while flurrying.
* per monk, full STR damage to all attacks during a flurryDamage: 2x [1d6+1(magic)+(STR)+2(WSpec)+(2, if PS or PA)]
A straight fighter at this point will be similar, but with Two Weapon Fighting (and the dexterity required to meet it by 4th), higher expenses (since he actually needs to use two weapons), and lower damage (lack of full strength bonus on off-hand attack sans Double Slice, lack of mutagen, usage of shield as off-hand weapon with poor crit-range). He also won't be able to pull any qualified-for combat feat out of thin air as a move-action four times per day.
05 Fighter3 [Armor Training+1], FEAT(g)
06 Fighter4 [Feat: Lunge]
07 Fighter5 [Weapon Training +1], FEAT(g)Most would consider fighter a front-loaded class due to early feats; it's actually an end-loaded class because it takes awhile for Weapon Training bonuses to accumulate, and for you to acquire the WBL to afford good gear. Essentially, there's no need to race Weapon Training until you're picking up Gloves of Dueling coincident.
08 Fighter6 [FEAT(c)
09...
Brawlers get profiency with the close weapon group, so if you take Brawler at 1st level you can skip EWP Waveblade.
With this kind of build, I like to dip a level of Bloodrager (Kyton bloodline). Beside the moral bonus to str and con you get auto sickened with no save on a critical hit.
Brawlers get profiency with the close weapon group, so if you take Brawler at 1st level you can skip EWP Waveblade.Good catch. (My damage was also understated because Piranha or PA is contributing +4 instead of +2 at BAB4.)
With this kind of build, I like to dip a level of Bloodrager (Kyton bloodline). Beside the moral bonus to str and con you get auto sickened with no save on a critical hit.
I considered including a rager into the stack, but wanted to keep the comparison versus a straight-class simple. (I'm always a little leery of putting Bloodrager into a home-game build, particularly Id Rager or other flavoring a little too on-the-nose (like evil-dripping Kyton) regardless of the character's alignment, because it's a blunt announcement to the GM that you intend to cakewalk unless he really ups the ante to accommodate your presence. Even if not, however, it makes the build more glass-cannony by lowering AC, which is counter to the purpose of S&B. A better rage dip might be my old fav, Savage Technologist, which increases AC (at least Touch-AC anyway), and which doesn't eventually requires a feat spend on Raging Vitality. The Bloodrager does gain some arcane item use, so there's that.)