Why does attacking break invis?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


I always figured it was something along the lines of, it's an illusion spell, and attacking someone breaks their suspension of disbelief or the like. I.E if you heard an invisible person's footsteps you could brush it off as some other sound (such as someone hammering in the distance) or just your imagination, whereas if someone stabs you in the back its kind of hard to ignore or rationalize it away.


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The real answer is game balance. The existence of the spell greater invisibility proves that it's not because the person is interacting with the spell. Honestly, I'm having a hard time thinking of a reason that isn't at least slightly meta for why invisibility works the way it does. I could play a harp or release a latch and it won't break invisibility. However, twanging a bow string (as the result of firing an arrow at someone) or pulling the trigger on a crossbow suddenly breaks it. It breaks it for everyone too, not just my target, even if my attack completely misses and goes flying out of the room through an open window, causing harm to no one.

Edit: To add even further insult. The "harp" I'm playing could even just be a tuned bow string and it won't break invisibility.


Yeah, the answer is meta. It's for game balance.

By the time people get access to greater invisibility, others can reliable get access to means to defeat invisibility.


To answer why greater invisibility doesn't work that way I would just say: because its higher level. Which may sound like a cop out but isn't any differen't than answering "why does meteor swarm do more damage than magic missile?" with "it's higher level".


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To maintain invisibility and conceal your presence, you must keep a tranquil spirit. Anger, violence; these tear apart the delicate veil that hides you from the world.


Does constant or permanent invisibility also break on attack?


doomman47 wrote:
Does constant or permanent invisibility also break on attack?

RAW, Invisibility can only be made permanent on objects, not creatures.

I believe if a creature had constant invisibility as a spell-like it would break on an attack.


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doomman47 wrote:
Does constant or permanent invisibility also break on attack?

The Invisible Stalker has permanent natural invisibility which does not break on an attack.

The Will-o’-wisp has at-will invisibility that breaks on an attack; they can go invisible again as a Move Action.

Every case is different, since there's no routine way to get 'constant invisibility'.


The invisible stalker effectively has permanent Greater Invisibility, while the Will-o-wisp effectively has regular invisibility at will.

And that because they're monsters, and monster abilities are balanced around different things than PCs are.


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Yqatuba wrote:
To answer why greater invisibility doesn't work that way I would just say: because its higher level. Which may sound like a cop out but isn't any differen't than answering "why does meteor swarm do more damage than magic missile?" with "it's higher level".

Then there's your answer; attacking ends invisibility because it's lower-level than the spell that lets you stay invisible while attacking.


So, against my better judgment, I have to ask: Does breaking wind break invisibility?


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UnArcaneElection wrote:

So, against my better judgment, I have to ask: Does breaking wind break invisibility?

Depends on if it's weaponized.


Anguish wrote:
UnArcaneElection wrote:

So, against my better judgment, I have to ask: Does breaking wind break invisibility?

Depends on if it's weaponized.

I think it depends less on if it's weaponized and more if it's a defensive response or an intentional attack.


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UnArcaneElection wrote:

So, against my better judgment, I have to ask: Does breaking wind break invisibility?

Only if it involves a saving throw.


thorin001 wrote:
UnArcaneElection wrote:

So, against my better judgment, I have to ask: Does breaking wind break invisibility?

Only if it involves a saving throw.

What if the target is immune to poison effects?


back in the days forgotten realms fantasy books (specifically the dark elf books) were written with the rules in mind. there is an excuse there why invisibility breaks when you attack in that you need some minor concentration to keep up the invisibility which end when you attack (or die in one book's case). greater invisibility just continue since it has more power so one doesn't need that concentration thingy.


Which is a horrible reasoning since you can cast invisibility on other people and it's their actions which break it, not the casters.

Concentration is typically a thing for the person who cast the spell, not the target. Regardless of whether or not the benefit from it.


why would it have to be the caster who concentrate? fly for example also need you to somewhat concentrate to use even if some1 else cast it on you.
there are a lot of spells that leave the target with some control over the spell effect. the fact some spells need a standard action to concentrate on them doesn't mean that that is the only way it can happen.


Why would the person who can't cast magic have anything to do with concentrating on the magic?

Concentration, at least from a mechanical standpoint is definitely not something that someone who didn't cast the spell would do.

And as for fly specifically, it's supposed to be like walking.

So it requires as much "concentration" as walking does. But also, if you couldn't "concentrate" the spell effect wouldn't end.

The concentration angle just doesn't make sense to me.


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Because magic.


Because level 3-4 characters have very limited options vs. invisible creatures, but level 7-8 characters have a lot more options (hence Greater Invis being a 4th lvl spell).


I've answered it in my games by saying that the Invisibility magic simply passes light through your otherwise solid body, but if you move too quickly, that light begins to bend, causing color shifting and reflections, refractions, and other visual artifacts that outline you well enough that everyone can see you.

For reference, see the old Arnold Schwarzenegger movie Predator and see how its invisibility gets all janky when it moves too fast.

Jogging or even running don't quite exceed the threshold, but rapid hand and foot movements such as attacks do.

Greater Invisibility is a, well, greater version that lacks this limitation.

It's not a perfect answer. It doesn't explain why casting Bull's Strength on myself doesn't break invisibility, but casting fireball on my enemy does. I rationalize that with an assumption that the symbolic gestures are just more rapid with offensive spells. Like the difference between using sign language "quietly" or using it to "shout".

That usually mollifies most questions about it, but not all. The rest, I fall back on "because magic".

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