If a creature has both Pounce and Awesome Charge.
should they be able to:
A) Charge a target, carry out a Pounce sequence of attacks, and then perform an Awesome Blow for free?
or
B) Either (Charge and perform an Awesome Blow) OR (Charge and Pounce)
thanks in advance.
Awesome Charge (Combat)
When you charge, you can send your opponent flying.
Prerequisite(s): Str 25, Awesome Blow, Improved Bull Rush, Power Attack.
Benefit(s): When you hit your opponent with a charge attack, you can attempt an awesome blow combat maneuver against that opponent as a free action.
Pounce (Ex)
When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can make a full attack (including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability).
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Well, Awesome Charge does say its a free action that you can do when you hit with a charge. Its a separate action that uses up a free action, so it has nothing to do with the charge itself, other than the charge is required beforehand to use it.
For Pounce, charge normally only does 1 attack. Pounce makes the charge into a full attack, so its still a charge.
By my observation, they should be able to work together as they are 2 separate actions.
ok, so the Awesome Charge allows an Awesome Blow as a free action made in addition to the charge action. And the Charge itself grants a single attack, while Pounce grants a full attack instead when a charge is carried out.
so a normal use of Awesome Charge then be that the creature charges it's target and makes a single attack, and in addition to this they carry out an awesome blow maneuver?
So then a creature with Pounce would charge it's target, carry out the full attack, and then in addition to this carry out an awesome blow attack as a free action.
Every one your your attacks is an attack made after a charge, i.e. a "charge attack"*. Every attack that lands triggers awesome charge, so you could theoretically make an awesome blow (including full weapon damage again if it lands) with every one of your attacks. In practise, unless the target is against a barrier, it will be out of your reach after the first one.
*) Proof: The Cudgeler Style feat triggers on a charge attack, but explicitly states that it only applies to the first one if you make multiple. Similarily, the reprints for Mammoth Hide changed the wording so that it's only on the first charge attack.
Every one your your attacks is an attack made after a charge, i.e. a "charge attack"*. Every attack that lands triggers awesome charge, so you could theoretically make an awesome blow (including full weapon damage again if it lands) with every one of your attacks. In practise, unless the target is against a barrier, it will be out of your reach after the first one.
*) Proof: The Cudgeler Style feat triggers on a charge attack, but explicitly states that it only applies to the first one if you make multiple. Similarily, the reprints for Mammoth Hide changed the wording so that it's only on the first charge attack.
My understanding of the definition of Charge comes from the gamemastering entry. It's very specific about it being a full round action, with specific movement requirements and also specific permitted attacking.
the cudgler style and the mammoth hide magic item have those language stipulations because there are exceptions to the standard single attack of the charge action. Normally a charge only permits one attack. Pounce is an ability/feat that permits a creature to carry out a full attack instead of a single attack when the creature charges. The cudgler style and the mammoth hide items do not themselves grant additional attacks on a charge action, they just stipulate that they only take effect on the first successful attack of a charge action in case a creature can make more than one attack on a charge action.
Charge
Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action. Charging, however, carries tight restrictions on how you can move.
Movement During a Charge
You must move before your attack, not after. You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent. If you move a distance equal to your speed or less, you can also draw a weapon during a charge attack if your base attack bonus is at least +1.
You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). You must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can’t charge. If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can’t charge. Helpless creatures don’t stop a charge.
If you don’t have line of sight to the opponent at the start of your turn, you can’t charge that opponent.
You can’t take a 5-foot step in the same round as a charge.
If you are able to take only a standard action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed) and you cannot draw a weapon unless you possess the Quick Draw feat. You can’t use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action on your turn.
Attacking on a Charge
After moving, you may make a single melee attack. You get a +2 bonus on the attack roll and take a –2 penalty to your AC until the start of your next turn.
A charging character gets a +2 bonus on combat maneuver attack rolls made to bull rush an opponent.
Even if you have extra attacks, such as from having a high enough base attack bonus or from using multiple weapons, you only get to make one attack during a charge.
Lances and Charge Attacks: A lance deals double damage if employed by a mounted character in a charge.
Weapons Readied against a Charge: Spears, tridents, and other weapons with the brace feature deal double damage when readied (set) and used against a charging character.
Pounce (Ex)
When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can make a full attack (including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability).
Format: pounce; Location: Special Attacks.
Yeah Pounce is pretty broken, there are a lot of things that break the game with Pounce.
And yes from the way I read it they work as Fox Soul said (and everyone else concurs).
Now Imagine the Spirited Charge feat with Pounce (it's tried and tested and works just as brokenly as you think).
Pretty sure Spirited Charge is only meant to apply to your first attack, as with the Lance bonus.
A mounted charge is a charge made by you and your mount. During a mounted charge, you deal double damage with your first melee attack made with a lance or with any weapon if you have Spirited Charge (or a similar effect), or you deal triple damage with a lance and Spirited Charge.
As it says "first melee attack", Pounce wouldn't let you circumvent this ruling.
With a creature that does not have Pounce, but they have Awesome Charge: They do a Charge action. They make the required movement, they reach the target and attack. They succeed and hit the target with the single attack. This initiates a single free action Awesome Blow maneuver. The check is made and the single Awesome Blow succeeds, the target takes slam damage, is knocked back away and prone.
If the creature has both Pounce and Awesome Charge. They make the required movement towards a target, they initiate a Pounce's full attack. Would the sequence for the Pounce + Awesome Charge work like this?
1. roll all attacks for the full round of attacks from the pounce. After that full round of attacks, if any of those attacks hit the target, then follow with a single free Awesome Blow attempt. If the single free action Awesome Blow maneuver succeeds, roll slam damage, knock the target back and prone.
or
2. roll each attack one at a time for the Pounce. On the first successful hit, interrupt the Pounce attack sequence and initiate the single free action Awesome Blow maneuver. If the single free action Awesome Blow succeeds, then the target takes slam damage, knockback, and prone and the Pounce full attack is ended.
This gets a bit more complicated when you consider the difference between natural weapons attacks and manufactured/unarmed attacks.
All natural weapon attacks happen simultaneously. So if you attack with nothing but natural weapon attacks, you should roll all of them and then determine if you hit with an awesome blow from any of those attacks. Once one works if the target is out of reach, you can't land another awesome blow.
With manufactured weapons/unarmed strikes you check for each swing. If you hit, you have to either take the free awesome blow immediately or let it go before you move on to the next strike. If you knock the target out of your reach, you can't continue hitting that opponent. If this wasn't a charge, you could switch to a different opponent within reach. But since it is a charge, all of your attacks must go to the creature you charged so additional iterative attacks would be wasted if it was knocked out of reach.
oh, so with a Pounce + Awesome Blow, if it's a unarmed strike or manufactured weapon as soon as one attack hits, you would take the single free action Awesome Blow. If that single awesome blow succeeds, the target is knocked back, presumably, ending the Pounce.
If a Pounce + Awesome Blow is with a natural weapon, all attacks are made simultaneously. If any hit then a free action Awesome Blow is made.
Do you mean that there can be multiple free action Awesome Blow attempts as part of a Awesome Charge + Pounce?
The way I read Awesome Charge is that there's only a single free action Awesome Blow. I read it as the 'charge attack' being one thing, whether it's a pounce or a single attack.
Awesome Charge (Combat)
When you charge, you can send your opponent flying.
Prerequisite(s): Str 25, Awesome Blow, Improved Bull Rush, Power Attack.
Benefit(s): When you hit your opponent with a charge attack, you can attempt an awesome blow combat maneuver against that opponent as a free action.
if it misses, the rest of the Pounce attacks are made but do not grant any more free Awesome Blows.
Why not? The descriptions of Cudgeler Style, Mammoth Hide et al. show that every attack is considered a "charge attack", and thus triggers the "When you hit your opponent with a charge attack" part of Awesome Charge.
All natural weapon attacks happen simultaneously.
Where does it say that?
if it misses, the rest of the Pounce attacks are made but do not grant any more free Awesome Blows.Why not? The descriptions of Cudgeler Style, Mammoth Hide et al. show that every attack is considered a "charge attack", and thus triggers the "When you hit your opponent with a charge attack" part of Awesome Charge.
All natural weapon attacks happen simultaneously.Where does it say that?
Cudgeler Style (Combat, Style)
You have learned how to rush your foe and deliver an incapacitating blow.
Prerequisite(s): Bludgeoner.
Benefit: When you hit with a charge attack to deal nonlethal damage while using this style, your weapon deals damage as if it were one size category larger than it actually is. If you have the ability to make more than one attack on a charge, this increase applies only to your first attack.
how does the Cudgeler Style dictate that Awesome Charge procs an Awesome Blow on every hit?
All natural weapon attacks happen simultaneously.Where does it say that?
Haven't seen any RAW support, unfortunately.
But it's basically the idea behind why Pounce exist at all. A Tiger charges and slashes its prey while biting down on it at the same time.Manufactured weapon pounces are inherently illogical because it's not like you can ready your three iteratives of a greathammer while running towards your opponent. This FAQ implies you would only get the +2 charging bonus on your first [Manufactured Weapon] attack, as the others "doesn't have the benefit of the charge’s momentum".
A charge is usually a movement followed by one attack.
Awesome Charge is a free action after the attack, following the movement of the charge.
Pounce is a full attack following the movement of the charge.
Awesome Charge is a free action after the full attack, following the movement of the charge.
What genius would ever argue that Awesome Charge activated on the first hit of a full attack? Why would you want that? And where is it written to make you think that?
Awesome Charge is a free action after the attack on a charge. It doesn't care if it's a single attack or a full attack, just after the charge attack or pounce is resolved, burn a free action to attempt an Awesome Blow.
You don't get an Awesome Blow/ Charge attempt with every attack on a pounce, you don't get to dictate where this Awesome Blow/ Charge free attempt happens... it happens at the end, after the attack(s) is/are resolved.
Haven't seen any RAW support, unfortunately.
But it's basically the idea behind why Pounce exist at all. A Tiger charges and slashes its prey while biting down on it at the same time.
Charge doesn't make any sense half the time, anyway - how the hell do you transfer momentum to a bite? The real fun part starts when you realize that the ability is called "pounce", but if you have to jump (let's say difficult terrain in the squares surroundin the enemy), you can't use it!
In practise, pounce is an ability that Paizo gave more and more PCs (sometimes in modified form, e.g. Avenger Vigilante's Mad Rush) because it's a fairly easy fix to the broken combat system.
Awesome Charge is a free action after the full attack, following the movement of the charge.
Awesome Charge doesn't trigger on the resolved action, it triggers on the successful attack ("hit"), basdically the roll.
Awesome Charge is a free action after the attack on a charge. It doesn't care if it's a single attack or a full attack
This is not correct. I have shown that every attack in a pounce qualifies as a "charge attack". You have not shown otherwise.
How does the Cudgeler Style dictate that Awesome Charge procs an Awesome Blow on every hit?You have learned how to rush your foe and deliver an incapacitating blow.
Prerequisite(s): Bludgeoner.
Benefit: When you hit with a charge attack to deal nonlethal damage while using this style, your weapon deals damage as if it were one size category larger than it actually is. If you have the ability to make more than one attack on a charge, this increase applies only to your first attack.
When you charge, you can send your opponent flying.
Prerequisite(s): Str 25, Awesome Blow, Improved Bull Rush, Power Attack.
Benefit(s): When you hit your opponent with a charge attack, you can attempt an awesome blow combat maneuver against that opponent as a free action.Bolded relevant portions.
Each attack you make when pouncing is a charge attack, therefore with each attack you can choose to initiate an awesome blow if you hit, or choose not to. This is because unlike cudgeler style, awesome charge doesn't have the first charge attack clause.
Nothing in the quoted rules changes the general rule that attacks are resolved sequentially.
the way I read "a charge attack" to mean either 1. the single attack of a normal charge or 2. the entire pounce sequence being considered a single unit (bite claw claw)=(a charge attack)
after 1 or 2, if any hit, then the attacker qualifies for a free action awesome blow as per awesome charge.
I'm not reading "a charge attack" to mean that there are multiple charge attacks in a charge.
without pounce the sequence would be (movement)->(1 attack)->(1 awesome blow maneuver)
with pounce I would interpret it to be (movement)->(pounce sequence (bite claw claw))->(1 awesome blow maneuver)
for example the term "full attack" referring possibly to multiple hit attempts is still a singular attack.
the awesome charge feat entry does not make exceptions for multiple hits on a charge. The cudgeler style and the mammoth hide armor do make exceptions and they stipulate that only one effect is granted.
for example the term "full attack" referring possibly to multiple hit attempts is still a singular attack.
Are you literally saying that making multiple attacks is a singular attack?
I don't even... I have no words to say here that wouldn't get me banned.
several things can be defined as a single whole unit yes
"full attack" is how the wording is, not full attacks
I'd imagine the logic behind awesome charge and pounce is that the free action awesome blow only is attempted once as it's similar to the logic behind the rules for charging with a lance with pounce.
when the awesome blow is successful it deals slam damage and knockback and knocked prone. how many times can a charging creature utilize that momentum to carry out an awesome blow? I would say once.
the stipulation that cudgel style and mammoth hide is that they apply their effect once.
it looks like the awesome charge writeup failed to consider pounce or similar abilities with iterative attacks.
The description for full attack in the CRB says it's multiple attacks. It's one action, but multiple attacks. Does Awesome Charge check for an action? No, it checks for hits, e.g. successful attack rolls.
Seriously, your argument is utterly nonsensical. You even admit that the writer "failed to consider pounce", so why do you even repeat your broken argument again and again?
I can see the logic behind the idea. Are you making a charge attack action? Yes.
There is no "charge attack action". The action is called charge, the 'charge attack' is but a part of the charge.
THe thing is that Awesome Charge doesn't trigger on a 'successful charge' or something, but on a hit. A hit is a successful attack roll, not a successful attack-roll-including action. AC limits it to attacks made as part of a charge, but every attack made as part of a pounce is part of the charge.To avoid misunderstandings, I do agree that Awesome Charge was never intended to be triggered byevery attack in a pounce/other full-attack-charge; and I probably wouldn't allow a player to use it that way (I'd implement a one/round limitation). But there's a difference between RAW and RAILT™ (rules-as-I'd-like-them).
all those other examples of things that proc on a charge would only proc once. the mammoth hide magic item only does it's damage once. the cudgel style feat only applies once. a lance only does extra damage once despite the attacker having pounce.
I would argue the momentum in an Awesome Charge is only applied once to a single Awesome Blow free action.
it doesn't make sense to do the charge movement, attack with all the pounce attacks, and each time a claw or bite hits, roll multiple awesome blow attempts.
you say I have flawed logic yet you agree with me.
A charge is usually a movement followed by one attack.
Awesome Charge is a free action after the attack, following the movement of the charge.
Pounce is a full attack following the movement of the charge.
Awesome Charge is a free action after the full attack, following the movement of the charge.
What genius would ever argue that Awesome Charge activated on the first hit of a full attack? Why would you want that? And where is it written to make you think that?
Awesome Charge is a free action after the attack on a charge. It doesn't care if it's a single attack or a full attack, just after the charge attack or pounce is resolved, burn a free action to attempt an Awesome Blow.
You don't get an Awesome Blow/ Charge attempt with every attack on a pounce, you don't get to dictate where this Awesome Blow/ Charge free attempt happens... it happens at the end, after the attack(s) is/are resolved.
Awesome Charge is a free action after the attack, following the movement of the charge.
Awesome charge doesn't care about the movement. It triggers on any hit that comes from a "charge attack". Awesome charge doesn't say anything about "successful charge", or a "resolved charge" - it triggers on a hit. The rules for what a hit is are these: "If your result equals or beats the target’s Armor Class, you hit and deal damage" CRB pg. 178
Now, the only ambiguous thing is what's a "charge attack"? There is not actual definition, but if a full attack made after a charge does count as a single "charge attack", than the wording for Cudgeler Style, Barracuda Slam, Arbalest Cloak, Invoke Primal Power and the (two) wording change(s) for Mammoth Hide make no sense. Therefore, we can deduct that every attack in a pounce/etc. counts as a full attack.
Furthermore, if you care to read the section for "full attack" in the CRB, it constantly refers to individual attacks*; it's made clear that every single attack in a full attack gets resolved seperately.
Everything in the game that triggers on "attacks" triggers individually for every attack in a full attack, why should something triggering on "charge attack" work differently?
*) E.G. "You do not need to specify the targets of your attacks ahead of time. You can see how the earlier attacks turn out before assigning the later ones." CRB pg. 187
Awesome Charge is a free action after the full attack, following the movement of the charge.
Prove it. Gives us something tangible to support this argument. Because right now, I have quoted some rules that at least strongly suggest that (other Paizo writers think that) my interpretation is correct, while you have posted nothing to support your argument.
so how would a pounce + awesome charge play out?
Personally, I read it as you're able to make an Awesome Blow whenever you successfully hit with an attack made during a charge. So if you have Pounce, theoretically your first attack could trigger the free action Awesome Blow, but I dunno if you'd want that because your opponent would move 10ft and you wouldn't get to finish your Pounce attacks. Although RAW, it might seem that you’re going to get 4 Awesome Blows if you hit with 4 attacks as part a Pounce, but that seems silly because you’d knock your opponent away after the first hit. /shrug
So I'd go with an RAI approach; if I had a PC with Pounce/Awesome Charge, the Charge would happen, all the attacks from Pounce would occur, and then you'd get an Awesome Blow attempt as a free action if you hit with any of the attacks, and then your turn is over.
So I'd go with an RAI approach; if I had a PC with Pounce/Awesome Charge, the Charge would happen, all the attacks from Pounce would occur, and then you'd get an Awesome Blow attempt as a free action if you hit with any of the attacks, and then your turn is over.
I strongly disagree that that's the RAI. Quite frankly, I think the authror just didn't consider pounce, so there is not actual RAI solution. You might not have realized it, but most of the time, your solution actually makes Awesome Charge+Pounce significantly stronger!
RAW: Every time you hit with one of the pounce attacks, you have a choice to either take the free action Awesome Blow attempt, or let it pass. Unless the target is with it's back against a wall et al, it will be out of reach after a successful maneuver, so you'd probably want to only attempt it on the last attack. If that one misses, you're out of luck.
As a GM, I'd probably make an "you can only attempt the free action Awesome Blow once per round, period" houserule. So with a target not against a wall, nothing changes, with a target against a wall, the first hit will trigger (and with the damage from what's de facto another attack, and the target being prone, it will probably not survive the full attack, anyway, if the check succeeds).
I mean as far as houserules go, Awesome Blow is usually only going to come up at all on an antagonist, since AFAIK its prerequisites are fairly prohibitive for PCs, so it's already in the GM's court as a basic assumption. And for pounce, it's usually going to make a pounce LESS dangerous (I'd rather be prone than dead); as a GM, I've used it specifically to mitigate a creature's damage-dealing ability while making them look powerful. If a PC DOES have it, even if they have someone pinned right to a wall, it's doing less overall than being specced fully into shieldbashing does in that situation, while still having a pretty steep buy in.
Anyway, RAW seems to pretty clearly allow you to make the check after each attack in a pounce.
Manufactured weapon pounces are inherently illogical because it's not like you can ready your three iteratives of a greathammer while running towards your opponent.
I know everyone has different levels of anime they're willing to accept, but for my money, I've tended to narrate it as something like Kenshin's Kuzu Ryu Sen (or any number of similar things in shonen comics). Yeah, it still doesn't make a lot of physical sense, but it's D&D so physics can take a hike.
Awesome Blow is usually only going to come up at all on an antagonist, since AFAIK its prerequisites are fairly prohibitive for PCs
Actually, no, at least not RAW. Nothing in the rules say you need to permanently fulfill the feat's prereqs, indeed, it was explicitly stated (durign the ACG playtest) that Brawler's Flurry's temporarily granted TWF do count for prerequisite.
A Bloodrager with the Abyssal bloodline easily qualifies for (and reliably activate) Awesome Blow at 4th level (with a starting strength of at least 18). An Alchemist could actually qualify at 1st level (19 starting strength+Mutagen+Enlarge Person extract), but would run out of feats; a human one could still have Awesome Charge at 5th level without retraining, as could a Sorcerer/Wizard, or a Cleric with the strength domain. More realistic choices would be WS Druids, Shifters, and some Barbarians like Beastkin Berserker.
More concrete, I had planned to take the feats on an Eidolon (taking Awesome Charge at 9th level, a level after the Large evolution), but abandoned that idea when I realized that the damage output was already crazy high.
even if they have someone pinned right to a wall, it's doing less overall than being specced fully into shieldbashing does in that situation
How?
Awesome blow does the damage of an attack (slam as written, but cross referencing with the Brawler ability, I'd use the damage of the triggering attack when using Awesome Charge), so every charge attack deals double damage plus 1d6 if both attack roll and CM check succeed.