Legendary in Light Armor

[kaisc006]

Sorry I can’t seem to find a way to become legendary or master in light armor? It appears the fighter is class locked to heavy armor, a problem I’d like to address in a different thread, so I figured the rogue would get boosts to light armor but don’t see anything?

[Draco18s]

Yeah. This is one of the things I don't like about TEML: for non-skills, it may not be possibly to get to legendary, no matter who you are.

[Dasrak]

There are currently no classes who are legendary in light armor. To be honest, if they did introduce a way to get legendary proficiency in light armor they'd probably need to buff heavy armor. Right now the only thing keeping heavy armor attractive at higher levels is that you get a superior proficiency modifier with it, allowing for higher AC.

We'll see what Paizo does with armor types in the final version; I got the feeling there was widespread dissatisfaction with the way heavy armor worked, so it may be balanced differently in the final version anyways.

[Draco18s]

Dasrak wrote:

There are currently no classes who are legendary in light armor. To be honest, if they did introduce a way to get legendary proficiency in light armor they'd probably need to buff heavy armor.

Which they should. Leaving out legendary advancement is misleading. Why can't anyone on the entire world ever be a master or legendary in leather armor? Its just silly.

But yes, heavy armor needs a buff, even ignoring this discrepancy.

[kaisc006]

I’m honestly surprised this wasn’t brought up earlier.... Huge game breaker to believe there are no legendary armor users and it appears only trained people in light armor no experts / masters in the world?

Wasn’t the whole defense of the terms legendary/ master / expert, in a d20 game where those names make no sense (numbers represent skill), was that the gate you from using certain abilities. So there are no master / expert light armor abilities?

I understand the math doesn’t allow it but quite frankly then they need to fix the math.

[Ediwir]

There are actually no ways to get expert in light armour either. Same for medium.

The whole armour system is balanced around the concept that heavy armour is terrible BUT has proficiency increases that MAY be worth suffering through it IF you are one of the two classes that get shoved into it.

[Blave]

Ediwir wrote:

There are actually no ways to get expert in light armour either. Same for medium.

Not that it really changes anything, but fighters become experts in medium armor at level 17. Paladins become Expert in both light and medium at level 13 and even Master in both at 17.

[Siro]

Yeah, noticed the whole Light/ Medium prof problems when making a more Dex based Fighter today. And like kasic006, from a world building standpoint, it really does not make sense that no one in the world can be masters of the light and medium armor, yet Heavy armor {which is also suppose to be the harder armor to get trained in} you can become a master or even a legend. Maybe {if your are a bit desperate to solve this dilemma) you can say because Light and Medium armors are easier to get trained in/ more user friendly, that there really isn't any room for improvement once knowing how to use it, but that is a really big reach.

From a gameplay standpoint, I agree with Ediwir that Heavy armor is pretty bad, and it being the only armor you can get higher prof in is its saving grace. Which I think is not the greatest design, as you prevent other armors from normal progression, while at the same time making Heavy Armor only useable for two classes, which themselves may have had to given up other abilities to do so/ have tied class abilities to them, limiting certain builds.

Personally, I would like prof progression to Light and Medium, but at the same time giving Heavy a buff. Perhaps heavy armor(s) gains a trait that gives the wear some sort of physical damage resistance along with AC, and/or ways to modify it. {say being able to put spikes on it, so those that attack the wearer with unarmed attacks are also dealt a little damage, as well to those whom are engaged with the person wearing it in a grapple.... As you can see I want an 'Iron Maidan' build that hugs people to death.)Of course, there is always those balancing issues...

---Edit----

You are right Blave, on both accounts. Good catch.

[WatersLethe]

I'm becoming more convinced that we need a "Defense" proficiency rather than Unarmored, Light, Medium, and Heavy.

If everyone has a defense proficiency, we don't need to have weirdness where putting a Wizard in armor removes their level to AC and we no longer have to stick to the weird idea that paladins and fighters only get really good with heavy armor, even if they're dex based.

Then Light, Medium, and Heavy armors can compete with each other based on their features and certain classes can get bonuses or have requirements as necessary to support any flavor needs, like monks needing to be unarmed for certain class features or wizards getting a bonus to using mage armor.

Most of the time all the armors are coming out to be right around the same AC anyway, so there's not a huge balance issue. A huge portion of AC is coming directly from level, which can be flavored however you like so it's not like a specific armor type changes that.

I think it's just cleaner all around than having it be such a big deal to put on metal armor as opposed to cloth, even though in reality cloth can be just as or more restrictive.

[Tectorman]

WatersLethe wrote:

I'm becoming more convinced that we need a "Defense" proficiency rather than Unarmored, Light, Medium, and Heavy.

If everyone has a defense proficiency, we don't need to have weirdness where putting a Wizard in armor removes their level to AC and we no longer have to stick to the weird idea that paladins and fighters only get really good with heavy armor, even if they're dex based.

Then Light, Medium, and Heavy armors can compete with each other based on their features and certain classes can get bonuses or have requirements as necessary to support any flavor needs, like monks needing to be unarmed for certain class features or wizards getting a bonus to using mage armor.

Most of the time all the armors are coming out to be right around the same AC anyway, so there's not a huge balance issue. A huge portion of AC is coming directly from level, which can be flavored however you like so it's not like a specific armor type changes that.

I think it's just cleaner all around than having it be such a big deal to put on metal armor as opposed to cloth, even though in reality cloth can be just as or more restrictive.

And it would let characters like Red Sonja, Tarzan, and John Carter go around without armor as depicted while still being to defend themselves without having to wait for so-called niche feats to come out or MCing Monk when it otherwise isn't thematic.

That said, I don't have my hopes up.

[Unicore]

The playtest did not do a good enough job explaining what proficiency is (as this universal thing that can apply to specific things like trained skills and nebulous aspects of character growth like saving throws), and what it means to advance it. Conceptually it makes sense that Legendary training in anything should be possible for at least 1 character class, but proficiency for armor is not actually a thing that exists in the game beyond a number bonus to AC. Because of that, Light Armor is the better armor for everyone with a dex of 16 or higher up until fighters and paladins get master proficiency and reductions to the Armor check Penalty. In fact, Dex-based fighters are still better off with light armor because they will only be a couple points behind in AC in exchange for vastly improved mobility. (the new stretched proficiency modifiers have changed this from when I played a Dex fighter, so the difference may have grown too far now).

So while conceptually Legendary Light Armor proficiency makes sense, it doesn't fit in the game numerically. If Heavy Armor gets an AC boost, to make legendary Light Armor Proficiency possible, then either attack rolls have to go up too, or else people are really going to get sour about running into enemies in heavy armor and with a shield that are going to be almost impossible to hit with any multiple attack penalty and combats will start to drag out longer.

I think a lot of the issues people are seeing conceptually with proficiency stem from the fact that the game has to accommodate a 5 to 7 point bonus difference in attributes. They have already brought the item bonus down to a 3 probably, but stretching the proficiency bonuses out makes legendary armor proficiency a massive +4 over Expert (which is what will be average for most characters). The net result of making Legendary Armor Proficiency to one or two classes is going to either be making them impossible to hit, or making everyone else incredibly squishy.

Maybe they will allow master light armor proficiency, but it is hard to see balancing Legendary light Armor Proficiency with Heavy Armor proficiency and Unarmored proficiency for monks.

[PossibleCabbage]

So I feel like armor needs another pass after the playtest, since the reason heavy armor is the only kind of armor you can get legendary in is because without a higher proficiency bonus there's no reason to use heavy armor save for "character concept" and "I can't afford dex" (but considering we increase saves 4 at a time, increase the 3 which correspond to saves seems a popular choice.)

Since if fighters could get legendary light armor proficiency, most fighters are going to increase Str, Dex, Con, and Wis every 5 levels and wear light armor. Without an extra increase in proficiency, scale mail is just better than full plate by the time you can get 18 dex.

So the whole thing needs a redesign- specifically so that heavy armor is not by design punitive (speed reduction, ACP, and things like clumsy and noisy to boot) so we need to prop it up with the proficiencies we hand out.

[Draco18s]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

So the whole thing needs a redesign- specifically so that heavy armor is not by design punitive (speed reduction, ACP, and things like clumsy and noisy to boot) so we need to prop it up with the proficiencies we hand out.

Exactly. I've played heavy-armor characters in 3.5. Not sure once done one in pathfinder, but I think that's been because of my (a) few characters played total and (b) interest in wider, more interesting mechanics. Eg I played an ifrit wishcrafter one game because it was unique. I ended up not liking it because, "you guys haven't wished 'that thing is on fire' in like ever, come on team!" So things like the reliance on other people remembering how my character works didn't work out.

But sure, if I played a fighter again (almost did, but I had other reservations about the game and then moved) I'd probably still consider heavy armor. I even had a concept once for a character that fought with two tower shields.

Then I had a friend in college make a character that wore Mountain Plate: armor so heavy even making it out of mithril doesn't reduce it to medium. He used it to great effect.

PF2? No one wants heavy armor. Sure, my paladin had it, but I had to be half-elf to make the character even function. I wanted to be half orc.

[Edge93]

Draco18s wrote:

PossibleCabbage wrote:

So the whole thing needs a redesign- specifically so that heavy armor is not by design punitive (speed reduction, ACP, and things like clumsy and noisy to boot) so we need to prop it up with the proficiencies we hand out.

Exactly. I've played heavy-armor characters in 3.5. Not sure once done one in pathfinder, but I think that's been because of my (a) few characters played total and (b) interest in wider, more interesting mechanics. Eg I played an ifrit wishcrafter one game because it was unique. I ended up not liking it because, "you guys haven't wished 'that thing is on fire' in like ever, come on team!" So things like the reliance on other people remembering how my character works didn't work out.

But sure, if I played a fighter again (almost did, but I had other reservations about the game and then moved) I'd probably still consider heavy armor. I even had a concept once for a character that fought with two tower shields.

Then I had a friend in college make a character that wore Mountain Plate: armor so heavy even making it out of mithril doesn't reduce it to medium. He used it to great effect.

PF2? No one wants heavy armor. Sure, my paladin had it, but I had to be half-elf to make the character even function. I wanted to be half orc.

Half-Orc with the Adopted Ancestry feat would be able to get to the same movement speed as a halfelf FWIW. Though the flavor is a bit weird, Half-Orc adopted by Elves. Doubt it's impossible though.

[Shango]

What about allowing master and legendary in light and medium armor, but giving heavy armor a Damage Resistance benefit vs physical weapons at legendary? The DR could be equal to the amount the heavy armor provides to AC. That way there would be plenty of incentive for anyone who qualifies to wear it