I just participated in an epic 5th level Pathfinder combat. We PCs were badly outnumbered if not outmatched. One PC unexpectedly distinguished herself. Whoda thunk that a CLERIC would deal big damage and so thoroughly command a battlefield?
This cleric distinguished herself by slaying more than half the foes, inflicting huge damage, and still finding time to save gravely wounded allies.
I watched (from my sniper nest) this character ambush a small horde of dangerous foes and crush them.
First the cleric swiftly enlarged to double size, threatening most of the battlefield with a longspear. Then the cleric channeled negative energy in a variant channel Earth-effect that harmed everyone on the field and made the whole field difficult terrain. The friendly fire damage stung but I took solace knowing that every foe on the field took the same amount of damage. The cleric had already distributed potions of Featherstep, a buff that lets one ignore difficult terrain, to allies.
The large cleric then dished out numerous AoOs, which usually hit for about 25 damage each. Enemies struggled in difficult terrain to close the gap while the cleric, wearing Featherstep Slippers, danced about and nimbly avoided them. Each round enemies would try to close with the large cleric and she would slay a few with monstrous AoOs. She'd then slip away, without AoOs, before the survivors could harm her much. She'd then channel again. The last survivors tried to flee.
I noticed that this cleric never attacked on her round, yet caused more hp damage than the rest of the party combined. After killing most of the enemies, and considerable friendly fire, she then channeled positive energy to heal the entire party, which was quite badly banged up by now.
I was struck by how this cleric massively out-damaged all the other PCs, even the Summoner and the Bloodrager Barbarian Combat Monster named Minmax. The negative energy channel rolls were extremely lucky, all 5s and 6s. All told, in a battle against 25 foes, this 5th level cleric caused at least 400+ hp damage over a 6 round combat. While still finding time to heal allies in combat. Twice.
Is this common? Have other people encountered this sort of killer-cleric that can so decisely stomp difficult combat encounters. Is this sort of refined tactical movement a common thing in your games? It seemed a simple build, with feats like Combat Reflexes, Power Attack, and a couple channel feats. The only thing I've ever seen come close is Dazing Fireballs from a spell-shaper.
Last AP I ran there was a Evangelist Cleric of Groetus who used Destruction domain and a 2 handed flail to great effect. His AC was trash but he managed to handle bard buffs and was top DPS for the entire campaign. About half the rounds he used his Aura of Destruction (which auto confirms crits) he would score a x3 crit.
There was another cleric in the party that was better at healing. but that left the destruction cleric to focus more on doing damage. Through most of the campaign most people forgot he could heal.
It sounds to me like the cleric has about a dozen feats, and stats are likely abnormally high to be pulling off large numbers of AoOs plus large amounts of damage per AoO plus have the stats to cast cleric spells plus have enough channels. I'm also not sure how the cleric channels both negative and positive, but there's likely a way... it's just a question of option costs, and how many options have been stacked.
Still, this is the upper-edge of possible with a carefully crafted character who was prepared for the circumstance, and optimized for it.
Sounds like high str and dex.
Multiple AoO means they had to have the feat Combat Reflexes.
Average 25 damage a hit likely means Power Attack. And a few buffs. With a 26 str (20 start, enlarged and bull's strength cast) power attack, and a +1 weapon is 2d6+16 per hit.
Is this common? Have other people encountered this sort of killer-cleric that can so decisely stomp difficult combat encounters. Is this sort of refined tactical movement a common thing in your games? It seemed a simple build, with feats like Combat Reflexes, Power Attack, and a couple channel feats. The only thing I've ever seen come close is Dazing Fireballs from a spell-shaper.
Oh, sure. When classes capable of going 'nova' and by being specifically built towards AoO against large groups, these things can happen. One way to balance it is to treat the enemy commanders as intelligent tacticians and send in waves with long enough of a pause so that short term buffs wear off, and you can wear the characters down. One thing I was wondering is where was the artillery support for the enemies? The cleric might have been built for melee and AoO, but few of them can handle arrows so well.
Not a standard build to be doing all that at lvl 5 with only an Enlarge person buff and some channeling. Maybe with other buffs going. But sounds like multiple good to great stats. Not sure how they are getting good damage with variant channel either, 3d6 halved plus effect. Then with feat to channel a d6 positive is not alot of healing. But pretty sure if this cleric is as tough as claimed, the other characters should be coming into power soon.
Sounds like a misunderstanding on how Variant Channel works. If they make the save, they don't treat it as difficult terrain at all. They also only ever take half damage regardless of whether or not they made the save. At level 5, we're talking 3d6/2. Or more likely, a Positive Channeler with Versatile Channel so 3d6/2 to heal, and 2d6/2 for damage.
Swift action Enlarge sounds like Growth subdomain and probably only for 5-6 rounds per day (3+wis). It looks like the only Neutral (on the good-evil axis) deity that I can find with both Growth and Earth domains is Fandarra, the Blood Mother. But it does exist, so nothing too strange going on there.
Feat-wise, we're talking at least Versatile Channel and Combat Reflexes. To get to average damage on a Longspear we probably also need to throw in Power Attack. Since DC is very important, they also probably want Improved Channel. Since they would have needed High Str and Dex and moderate Wis, Cha for the saving throw on the channel should have been lowish. Probably around 13-15, barring rolling for stats and getting four 18s.
To get six rounds of growth a day, six rounds of channel energy a day, three attacks of opportunity a round, and an average of 25 damage powerattacking with a +1 long spear, it looks like you need at least a base of 16 Cha, 16 Wis, 16 Dex, and 28 Str. That’s takes a fair bit of luck on your rolls. And that allows you to function for six rounds each day.
Cast the spell as a swift action? Enlarging comes with a -2 Dex which means 1 less AoO. Enlarge also isn't on the Cleric list, so Strength Domain. But still swift casting at 5th? Or was the achieved some other way? EDIT: Gah... missed Growth Domain. :(
Hubert D'Amberville wrote:
threatening most of the battlefield with a longspear.
Standard Reach cleric so far
Hubert D'Amberville wrote:
Then the cleric channeled negative energy in a variant channel Earth-effect that harmed everyone on the field and made the whole field difficult terrain.
This cleric can also channel positive energy though? That's possible, but it's not usual.
Hubert D'Amberville wrote:
The friendly fire damage stung but I took solace knowing that every foe on the field took the same amount of damage.
No Selective Channeling Feat then
Hubert D'Amberville wrote:
The cleric had already distributed potions of Featherstep, a buff that lets one ignore difficult terrain, to allies.
Distributed implies they were crafted... Brew Potion from somewhere?
Hubert D'Amberville wrote:
The large cleric then dished out numerous AoOs, which usually hit for about 25 damage each.
Definitely possible if there is a high Strength score involved. But again, Dex penalty from Enlarge.
Hubert D'Amberville wrote:
Enemies struggled in difficult terrain to close the gap while the cleric, wearing Featherstep Slippers, danced about and nimbly avoided them. Each round enemies would try to close with the large cleric and she would slay a few with monstrous AoOs. She'd then slip away, without AoOs, before the survivors could harm her much. She'd then channel again.
Channeled 4 times then? 5 if that casting was Swift and the first one was on round 1, then another at the end of combat? Reach clerics normally make use of Summon Monster to deal more damage, not channeling, but obviously the terrain makes that less effective. So a pretty good Charisma here as well, at least a 14 or higher depending on how many channels were actually used.
Hubert D'Amberville wrote:
The last survivors tried to flee.
I noticed that this cleric never attacked on her round, yet caused more hp damage than the rest of the party combined. After killing most of the enemies, and considerable friendly fire, she then channeled positive energy to heal the entire party, which was quite badly banged up by now.
Your 400 damage claim is probably reasonable. 7 or so damage (all 5s) per target on each channel (EDIT: unless saved against, and then it is 3 or 4). Even if 100 of the damage was channeling, that's 300 from AoO which implies roughly 12 attacks across 5 rounds... not many if a decent Dex is indeed at play. If you were outnumbered, they had probably 3 HD at best for an average 13 hit points. If it was an above APL encounter, maybe 22 hit points, so each target is probably dropping from a single attack even without the channeling and that lines up with killing half the enemy.
A fireball from a Wizard would have done around 17 per target (425 total before saves, more if optimized a bit) and maybe hit all of them, wiping the entire field in two castings probably, but then there is the Will vs Reflex save discussion.
EDIT: This is less about the build being good and more about the circumstances and action economy. A Come and Get Me Barbarian built for AoO would probably shine in this moment as well, without the difficult terrain. Or any AoE caster prepared and in position to exploit the target rich environment. If this Cleric was built with Channeling instead of Summoning, I'd consider it a notch below the Summoning variant, as that is far more broadly useful than damage + difficult terrain, particularly in the later portion of the game when flight and teleporting become far more common. Cleric got to shine, good on them... it'll be someone elses turn next time. Just don't fall into the trap of comparing characters on damage alone... Bards, Wizards, and Sorcerers will make you regret it when they neuter an entire encounter is a couple of actions.
Assuming 16s in both strength and dexterity, Enlarging alters them to 18 and 14 respectively, the latter being enough for 3 AoOs per round. In a roll-your-smokes game, a starting 18 becomes a 20 which is then a 26 after Enlarge and Bull Strength. 2d6+9+1 plus another half-dozen elsewhere gets him to 25. Feats? Not much needed aside from Combat Reflexes.
"Reach clerics", and reach builds in general, kick butt, which is why it's surprising to me that so few players run them.
(For real mass carnage, share the teamwork feat Paired Opportunists among a group armed with Fortuitous polearms.)
Great comments! Here's a follow up. I got a look at the character sheet and reviewed the action with other players and GM. Here's more info:
* Character is point buy neutral human Cleric of Fandarra. Extra credit to Firebug, who figured out Fandarra. Game was not PFS but PC was built PFS legal. Only Traits and Variant Channeling are outside Core Rules. The 5th level party has no arcane full caster, thus no Fireballs.
STR 16+2 DEX 14 CON 12 INT10 WIS 14 CHA 12
Feats: Combat Reflexes (H), Versatile Channel (1st), Power Attack (3rd), Extra Channel (5th).
Traits: Fate's Favored & Temple Guard
Variant Channel is an archetype of Cleric
Details for anyone interested:
One domain was Growth but neither domain was used at all in that fight. The PC instead enlarged pre-combat with a Potion of Enlarge Person. I was wrong about that in my 1st description because that PC did often do a 1 round swift action enlarge. Just not in that fight.
Negative Variant Channeling (Earth ): wrote:
Earth: Heal—Creatures gain a DR 1/adamantine until the end of your next turn. This DR improves by 1 at 5th level and every 5 levels thereafter. This does not allow recipients to overcome DR/adamantine with their own attacks. Harm—All squares in the area are treated as difficult terrain for 1 minute.
The Cleric chose to channel primarily Positive energy. That's 3d6 positive channel at 5th level. Versatile Channel feat allows 2d6 negative channel damage at 5th level. The Variant Channeling archetype causes an effect (difficult terrain) and inflicts a flat 50% of normal damage, no save. Thus this cleric's negative channel to harm living inflicts 1d6 damage to all within 30', no saving throw.
The ambush in a crowded army camp allowed the cleric to channel negative energy twice to harm , rolling a 6 and a 5, affecting 22 creatures (counting 2 allies). That's 22x11 = 242 hp channel damage. That was 220 hp to foes and 22 hp to allies. @Darkbridger: Correct, no Selective Channel.
The Cleric player politely left a record of exactly which buffs were active. They were Defending Bone, Enlarge Person, Bless, Divine Favor for +2 +2 (see Fate's Favored trait), Bull's Strength (+2 +3), Protection from Evil, and +2 bardsong. Buffs gave +7 to hit and +7 damage with DR5/bludgeoning.
Cleric got only 2 AoOs (-2 DEX for Large) per round. They struck at roughly +14 to hit for 2D6+18 damage. So average 25 HP damage per hit. We tried to count and are pretty sure the cleric scored 8 hits over 6 rounds of combat. Only one attack missed, on a natural 1. Some hits were surely overkill, but not every hit killed a foe. So roughly 8 hits x 25 hp each = 200 hp inflicted with longspear, all with AoOs.
The foes were ambushed but there was not a surprise round. The cleric scored two kills with AoOs before even getting to act on Round 1 (Combat Reflexes!). Foes did try to concentrate missile fire on the spear-wielding giant but other PCs suppressed them and the Defending Bone buff stopped a lot. This was definitely a team effort. The cleric did take some damage from missile fire.
At one point six foes moved adjacent to the cleric while others fired missile weapons, but they all died before they could inflict much damage. There was a lot of acrobatic movement to avoid AoOs on both sides. The GM was tactically sharp and played the foes as intelligent and tactically savvy.
The cleric then moved and Channeled Positive to heal (mostly) allies twice for about 20 hp total. That brought most of the party, including the cleric, back up to full health. Several dying foes were revived, and got up to continue to fight, but it made no difference.
So the cleric spent 4 rounds channeling, two negative to harm and two positive to heal. There was considerable friendly fire and even more hostile healing. Not sure what cleric did on 5th and 6th round, but by then enemy morale had broken and the survivors were either trying to save themselves or fighting to the death. Two Extra Channels were not used, and cleric still had ample resources left after this fight.
Total damage seemed to be about 200 hp inflicted with longspear attacks, another 220 damage to foes with negative channeling, and 22 hp friendly fire damage. So about 420 damage to foes over 6 rounds. That's actual combat 70 DPS at 5th level.
@Darkbridger: Yes, this seems to be a pretty standard well-optimized reach cleric. Potions of Featherstep were purchased at standard rates. The situation was perfect to maximize this character's effectiveness. This PC has done well in most other fights, but this one was exceptional. It's clearly a very strong build. I, too, don't know why we don't see it more often.
The Variant Channeling archetype causes an effect (difficult terrain) and inflicts a flat 50% of normal damage, no save. Thus this cleric's negative channel to harm living inflicts 1d6 damage to all within 30', no saving throw.
From my reading of Variant Channel, this is incorrect. There is always a save. However, the damage is not reduced on a save. If they make the save they are not affected by the additional (penalty or) effect from variant channel. Since it says effect (and you also clearly refer to the difficult terrain as an effect), I would argue that they ignore the difficult terrain if they save. However, what happens to creatures that weren't in the channel when it happened is up to the GM.
Variant Channeling wrote:
A variant channeling either modifies positive channeled energy when used to heal or modifies negative energy when used to harm. When using positive energy to heal, affected creatures gain only half the normal amount of healing but also receive a specific beneficial effect. When channeling negative energy to harm, affected creatures take only half the normal damage but take an additional penalty or harmful effect; a successful saving throw negates the additional penalty or effect but does not reduce the damage any further. Creatures that would normally ignore the effect of a particular channel (such as undead with respect to a positive energy channel used to heal) ignore the variant effect of that channel.
Earth Variant Channel wrote:
Earth: Heal: Creatures gain a DR 1/adamantine until the end of your next turn. This DR improves by 1 at 5th level and every 5 levels thereafter. This does not allow recipients to overcome DR/adamantine with their own attacks. Harm: All squares in the area are treated as difficult terrain for 1 minute.
420 damage vs 20(+?) enemies is really not that impressive. You can get that just by casting Stone Call 3 times for 2d6 damage each, no save no SR. And at a 40' radius and a 150' casting distance (that also creates difficult terrain) you will likely hit everything channel does and more. Granted, the cleric also healed a bit, but an reasonably optimized Fireball could probably do 420 damage round 1 even if it didn't hit all the enemies.
Fireball:
Say, Human Wizard Evoker 5, the two traits to reduce Metamagic cost, Empowered, Spell Focus, Varisan Tatoo, Spell Specialization, Bloatmage Initiate for 9d6*1.5 +2 ~= 49.25 damage per target, DC 19 or so. Since the creatures were probably individually CR 2 or less if Reflex is their good save their bonus should be 6ish. So assuming only 1/4 of the enemies save for half, the Wizard only has to hit 10 targets to do 430 average damage.
@firebug. Right! It seems like a GM could interpret variant Earth channel as affecting either the target or the actual ground squares. Our gm chose to treat it like a mini Stone call, with an actual visible effect on the ground that fades after one minute. Another gm could reasonably interpret it as only affecting the living target and only after they fail a save. Both might be tactically useful, but in different ways.
Is anyone aware of an official ruling on this? Or even guidance towards which interpretation is more RAW or RAI? It's my understanding that variant channeling did not get much play testing.
Finally, I'd like to make a general comment on the various clerics I've seen in game. I've seen many clerics built and played in a way that's drastically less effective. This is the most combat effective cleric I've ever seen.
Forevermore, when I see someone trying to optimize a battle cleric using, say, guided hand, or building a healbot & trying to maximize healing ability, or trying to build a melee cleric without using reach, I'll have to suppress an impulse to inwardly groan. I know it's rude and inappropriate to say,"you're doing it wrong", but I'll forever after have a hard time not thinking it.
I am playing a reach cleric evangelist, so I too have similar buffs up. It is great, except, we never see much combat where there is a lot of AoOs. :-(
Do note that 5th level, Defending Bone only prevents 25 points of damage. With that many enemies trying to pincushion him, this limit might be reached.
This sacred oil, infused with aromatic spices and distilled holy water, may be applied to a creature while casting a harmless divine spell with a range of touch, increasing the casting time to a full-round action but also increasing the caster’s effective caster level by +1 for that spell.
Applied to Divine Favor at 5th makes it effectively 6th, getting you that extra +1.
