Hey oh guys,
i've read most of the posts about "Tanks" in Pathfinder, understanding that tanking isn't only about HP, AC or so, but also about saving throws, enabling rerolls for your party and even buffing/healing/taking damage (life link, shield others stuff) for them (damage output is also a point to "get enemies aggro").
So, that said, i'm trying to brainstorm like a crazy since i need to create a new character starting from level one and i would create something considering this:
-HP>AC (keeping it decent), because you want the enemy to be able hitting you (#aggro, done also using roleplay anyway)
-Rerolls>Buffs, because i prioritize giving my party opportunities where the GM can't act too much on (a new dice roll for a failed save on a determined and clear DC is more "controlled by the players" than a +X AC that the GM could pass with a natural 20)
-Without sacrifice too much Social skills and CHA(both could be changed with "ways to do X with Y with other stats")
I hope for advices and tips!! Thanks fellas!!
Thanks for your advice.
Anyway i'm not looking in something that allow me rerolls, but more that can allows others getting rerolls.
Reach could be something interesting in a build for me, but mainly for AoO, i feel that things like Trip or such maneuvers become useless in late game (flying opponents or immune ones) but maybe i'm just wrong?
Weirdly, a Mesmerist (d8 HP and light armor) combined with any tough ally makes the best tank vs a single opponent. You stare at your opponent, use
the Disorientation bold stare (applies stare penalty to their to-hit against everyone, so minus 2-3, or 4 with a mesmerizing tattoo), and the Meek Facade mesmerist trick on your tough ally (when the ally misses an enemy with an attack, including an iterative, that targeted enemy MUST attack only the ally with the trick implanted for the next round, and the ally gets a +2 dodge bonus, which scales, added to their AC). So a mesmerist working with an ally can force one opponent to attack only their tough ally, and make him very hard to hit.
There are various archetypes to make this work better - the Vexing Trickster can load up on tricks to make this work more than one round, as can the Chart Caster. A Vexing Trickster also gets Combat Expertise, so they can hurt their attack and boost their defense if they want to trigger this themselves, and with a Mesmerist's Mask worn they apply an additional -2 to the stare targets to hit. And since you can have a Mirror Image up, it can get pretty silly for lockdown potential, a midlevel Vexing Trickster can probably lock down a melee monster for three rounds without taking too many hits.
If you want to be a tanky-type with ally rerolls, I'd suggest Hexcrafter Magus and pick up Fortune Hex at lvl 4 and get Cackle as an Extra Hex at lvl 5 and you're golden. At level 8, you get Accursed Strike, allowing you to apply any spell with the [Curse] descriptor into your Spellstrike even if it isn't a touch spell (so Bestow Curse becomes a pretty attractive spell). You're going to be really action starved in combat because you'll be using your Move Actions for Cackle, so pick up a Cackling Hag's Blouse so you can do it as a Swift Action twice per day if you get into a pinch.
I'd also recommend getting Power Attack and Cornugon Smash and put ranks in the Intimidate Skill, and then put a +1 Cruel enchantment on your weapon. This causes the Shaken/Sicken combo for -4 att, saves, skills, abil checks, and -2 dmg, in addition to whatever curse you put on them.
Even though you're not like a true "tank" who can absorb a lot of damage on yourself per se, instead you "tank" by mitigating tons of damage off your allies through offensive debuffing and extra rerolls :)
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Kitsune Spirit Guide Oracle of Pharasma.
Take the Wrecking Mysticism curse, trade all your bonus mystery spells for extra kitsune tails.
Take the Life mystery, picking up Channel Energy here along with anything else you want.
Take the Life Spirit wandering spirit, picking up the Life Link hex and gaining a second pool of Channel Energy at 7th level, plus gaining all your bonus mystery spells back at 4th level as spirit magic spells (the lists are identical).
Take Fateful Channel at 7th level, granting everyone you heal the ability to reroll a single attack roll, skill check, or saving throw of their choice within a number of rounds equal to your Charisma bonus.
The build's got solid charisma with it being their primary casting stat, gobs of hit points, 12+ channel energy per day from 7th level along with free rerolls, and can also overcharge hit points if you pick up Spirit Boost. You also get full access to the Cleric spell list, which has all kinds of awesome on there. A great method is to combine this build with liberal use of Summon Monster spells to create temporary allies and use them to grant flanking, absorb hits, and generally ruin your GM's day.
Thanks to everyone, i'm really appreciating all this help!
Anyway, my bad, i didn't point out that Occult/Psychic and stuff is denied.
The magus route is one of those i was considering but, worth saying, we already have a witch in the party, so are those debuff stacking/really worth?
For what concerns the samurai route, i'm reading this now because i don't know the class.
I want to provide some other informations:
-The campaign is mostly located in a town
-Healing and buff/debuff are covered
Interesting to me are:
- Reach build or some battlefield control (reach is the best one imho)
- Social skills/Cha (i heard about some stuff like intimidating use in combat)
- Arcane magic (if possible would be great, mostly used for roleplay reasons)
I would love to put myself in condition to get AoO, maybe pushing enemies (is that possible?) out-range with some maneuver or stopping their movement.
And what are you doing when you wait the enemy to come closer? That's what spells are for (i would like some kind of "passive" spells that force enemies to get closer, like some kind of barrier or maybe could work with some kind of fog stuff)
Thanks to everyone, i'm really appreciating all this help!
Anyway, my bad, i didn't point out that Occult/Psychic and stuff is denied.
The magus route is one of those i was considering but, worth saying, we already have a witch in the party, so are those debuff stacking/really worth?
For what concerns the samurai route, i'm reading this now because i don't know the class.
I want to provide some other informations:
-The campaign is mostly located in a town
-Healing and buff/debuff are coveredInteresting to me are:
- Reach build or some battlefield control (reach is the best one imho)
- Social skills/Cha (i heard about some stuff like intimidating use in combat)
- Arcane magic (if possible would be great, mostly used for roleplay reasons)
Since you already have a Witch in the party, she can cover the ally reroll portion of things so that you don't need to. I think that if you're both going for a Hexing class, you'll lose some versatility in your group if you specifically pick a class to get Fortune when someone else can easily get it. Anywho, you might consider a Fighter1/Wiz5/EldKnight10, Fighter1/Sorc6/EldKnight10, or a Magus7/EldKnight10 build instead.
Personally, I prefer the Wizard route to getting Eldritch Knight prereq's because it happens 1 level faster and Wizards pwn in general. A Spellstriking Eldritch Knight is nothing to sneeze at either though-- you just won't have access to the lvl 9 spells in the late game. Sorc would synergize well with going the Intimidate route because of the high Charisma. So it's up to you and your playstyle really.
Power Attack/Cornugon Smash/Intimidate/CruelEnchant is a really cheap and efficient way of debuffing, and every enemy you kill gives you 5 temp HP from the Cruel Enchant, which will make you very survivable. Your allies will love you for giving enemies a -4 to att/saves every time you successfully Intimidate on a Power Attack. This debuffing route only costs you 1 feat (Cornugon Smash), 1 maxed skill (Intimidate), and a +1 level enchant (Cruel) to make it all happen. I say it only costs you 1 feat because you *should* already get Power Attack/Piranha Strike/Deadly Aim regardless of any build you do.
About Kitsune i've some questions (nice build anyway and thanks for the help!!):
- Why Kitsune exactly?
- I love Life link, but are those healing-stuff needed? I mainly got that role covered already, if there's a way to grant rerolls without healing i'm fine anyway (maybe even earlier than 7th level)
- Which weapon am i using and with which feat "route"?
If you do end up going the F1/W5/EK10 build, you'll definitely want to start the game with the Trait Magical Knack so you don't lose the 2 Caster Levels in Wizard from getting a level in Fighter and the missing +1 spellcasting level from the first level in EK.
You might also consider doing Slim Jim's trick by getting Additional Trait as a Feat, and then picking Magical Lineage/Wayang Spellhunter. You can't retrain Traits, but you can retrain Feats for a bit of coin-- so if you get Magical Lineage/Wayang Spellhunter with the Feat Additional Traits, you can retrain it into whichever spell you'd like to be casting with MM feats for lower spell slots.
Thank you guys.
I would love to put myself in condition to get AoO, maybe pushing enemies (is that possible?) out-range with some maneuver or stopping their movement.
And what are you doing when you wait the enemy to come closer? That's what spells are for (i would like some kind of "passive" spells that force enemies to get closer, like some kind of barrier or maybe could work with some kind of fog stuff)
I found Bullrush, exactly what i was looking for. Now i have some doubts because seems that combat maneuvers are limited to your size vs the opponent size. How can you overcome this limit(or which class/ability let you get closer to)?
Maybe you could try something like this?
.
Human 25pt buy
Str 18 (16+2)
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 16
Wis 10
Cha 8
Traits: Magical Knack (Wizard), Reactionary
lvl1-F1: Feat: Power Attack, Human BF: Additional Traits (Magical Lineage/Wayang Spellhunter, choose Burning Hands), Fighter BF: Improved Initiative
lvl2-W1: Arcane Bond: Arctic Hare Familiar (+4 Initiative), School: Divination/Foresight
lvl3-W2: Feat: Empower Spell (Empowered Burning Hands is lvl 1 spell slot)
lvl4-W3: +1 Int
lvl5-W4: Feat: Intimidating Prowess
lvl6-W5: Wizard BF: Heighten Spell
lvl7-EK1: Feat: Preferred Spell: Fireball, EK BF: Cornugon Smash (get Cruel Enchant now)
lvl8-EK2: +1 Int
lvl9-EK3: Dazing Spell (retrain Magical Lineage/Wayang Spellhunter to Fireball-- now you have Dazing Fireballs as 4th lvl spell slot that can cause AoE 3 round Daze, and you never have to prepare Fireball because you can trash utility spells to cast it spontaneously with any MM feats you have :D)
lvl10-EK4:
lvl11-EK5: Spell Penetration, EK BF: Any combat feat
lvl12-EK6: +1 Int
lvl13-EK7: Preferred Spell: Firesnake (now you can cast Firesnake spontaneously as well :D)
lvl14-EK8:
lvl15-EK9: Spell Perfection: Firesnake (Dazing Firesnake is 5th lvl spell slot :D), EK BF: Any combat feat
lvl16-EK10: +1 Int (EK: Spell Critical! <-- so good)
lvl17-W6: Greater Spell Penetration
lvl18-W7:
lvl19-W8: Piercing Spell or Maximize Spell
lvl20-W9: +1 Int
Why Divination? Because of Forewarned, but mostly for Prescience (bolded below). With your Witch ally giving you Fortune, it would be Rerolls all day erry-day.
DivinationDivination Arcane School
Diviners are masters of remote viewing, prophecies, and using magic to explore the world.
Forewarned (Su)
You can always act in the surprise round even if you fail to make a Perception roll to notice a foe, but you are still considered flat-footed until you take an action. In addition, you receive a bonus on initiative checks equal to 1/2 your wizard level (minimum +1). At 20th level, anytime you roll initiative, assume the roll resulted in a natural 20.
ForesightPrescience (Su)
At the beginning of your turn, you may, as a free action, roll a single d20. At any point before your next turn, you may use the result of this roll as the result of any d20 roll you are required to make. If you do not use the d20 result before your next turn, it is lost. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Intelligence modifier.
Foretell (Su)
At 8th level, you can utter a prediction of the immediate future. While your foretelling is in effect, you emit a 30-foot aura of fortune that aids your allies or hinders your enemies, as chosen by you at the time of prediction. If you choose to aid, you and your allies gain a +2 luck bonus on ability checks, attack rolls, caster level checks, saving throws, and skill checks. If you choose to hinder, your enemies take a –2 penalty on those rolls instead. You can use this ability for a number of rounds per day equal to your wizard level. These rounds do not need to be consecutive.
Thanks.
The problem is i'm not looking into granting myself rerolls, but mainly the party, but as someone said that role is probably covered by the witch (at least for what concerns hexes, the oracle stuff is still a valid option).
I'm wondering, as a wizard, are you running some kind of armour? Because i'm mainly staying in the center of the battlefield most of the encounters.
I took a look at the samurai, and i loved it. Asked my GM with a message and seems he isn't allowing any "oriental" class type (Ninja, Samurai, Geisha Bard..) :(
Thanks.
The problem is i'm not looking into granting myself rerolls, but mainly the party, but as someone said that role is probably covered by the witch (at least for what concerns hexes, the oracle stuff is still a valid option).
I'm wondering, as a wizard, are you running some kind of armour? Because i'm mainly staying in the center of the battlefield most of the encounters.I took a look at the samurai, and i loved it. Asked my GM with a message and seems he isn't allowing any "oriental" class type (Ninja, Samurai, Geisha Bard..) :(
Yeah, I think doubling up on Fortune Hex would be wasteful because now you have two party members Cackling and the Witch really ought to be doing that instead of you, imo. Action Economy is everything in this game. If you’re truly married to that style of character, you could go Hexcrafter Magus8/Eldritch Knight 10?
As a wizard, you can get mithril armor/buckler to lessen your spell failure, or rely on dex and use Mage Armor and Shield spells to boost AC.
As a matter of curiosity, what’s the rest of your party besides you?
As said i still don't know the classes, i just know what their role will be: 1healer, 1buffer, 1debuffer and a melee/half melee + me
Well, I think that if you want to be a "reroll" tank with a reach weapon and Arcane Spells, Hexcrafter Magus8/EK10 is probably your best bet. The two primary downsides I see with this are: firstly, you're investing 8 levels into a class (with lesser Arcane spellcasting prowess than a Wizard) for a feature that another party member gets for *comparatively* free; it just costs her a Hex and she's probably already going to get it anyway; and secondly, you'll have two people using Move Actions every round to Cackle (this severely limits your own movement and ability to get full-attack actions). The main upside to having a second party member with Fortune is that each party member can have Fortune twice a day now. But, as a Hexcrafter8/EK10 with Accursed Strike, your party's debuffing potential will be absolutely insane. Your GM will flip the table once you start using Bestow Curse, Empowered Enervation, and Maximized/Empowered Touch of Idiocy in your Spellstrikes, not to mention the Shaken/Sicken combo.
In a cost/benefit analysis, I personally think you'd be better off with the utility of a Fighter/Wizard/EK. You can still do a metric crapton of battlefield control if you prepare Wall/Pit/Cloud spells and wreck faces with a reach weapon when they get close. And Wizards debuff quite well anyway. You can still do Bestow Curse, Enervation, and Touch of Idiocy as a Wizard; it just won't happen as part of a Spellstrike, so the full debuffing potential of your group won't manifest as quickly.
About Kitsune i've some questions (nice build anyway and thanks for the help!!):
- Why Kitsune exactly?
- I love Life link, but are those healing-stuff needed? I mainly got that role covered already, if there's a way to grant rerolls without healing i'm fine anyway (maybe even earlier than 7th level)
- Which weapon am i using and with which feat "route"?
In my opinion, there really isn't such a thing as 'too much healing,' since action economy is a thing, and even another healing character will likely appreciate support and a second set of resource pools to extend your group's daily ability to survive encounters.
The reason you pick Kitsune is due to gaining the bonus spells from Life Spirit at level 4, which is a duplicate of the Life Mystery Oracle list of bonus spells. It's essentially a wasted class feature. However, if you take the Wrecking Mysticism curse, you instead trade those mystery spells for bonus tails, gaining a spell-like ability every second level, and then you get all those bonus spells back for free at level 4. Now technically, nothing says you must be a kitsune in the curse to gain the bonus tails, but most GMs will rule that you need to be that race to use that feat, so it helps you lock in the bonus, no argument. It's not a bad base race for the class anyhow, with bonuses in all the right areas, and their Favored Class Bonus even gives you any one weapon proficiency feat, including exotic stuff, per four levels.
Feats would probably be along the lines of:
1st: Fey Foundling
3rd: Selective Channel
5th: Quick Channel
7th: Fateful Channel
9th: Spell Focus (Conjuration)
11th: Augment Summoning
13th: Spell Penetration
15th: Greater Spell Penetration
Your tactic in combat is to keep Life Link up, supporting with a reach weapon or summoned creatures, and popping out Channel Energy when needed to top off your allies and yourself. By 7th level, you probably open combat with a Prayer, followed by a Quick Channel as a move action, then spend the next round as a full round action to cast Summon Monster III for a celestial leopard or lantern archon.
Thanks again for your suggestions guys!
Well, now seems that things have changed a bit from when i wrote the first post, so lets make the point:
-Rerolls are probably covered by the witch (i forgot that the only class i was aware of is that the debuffer was looking into creating a witch)
-Healing is already covered as Buffs are (that being said by the GM)
So now, i would be able to focus on Battlefield Control, mainly from a melee perspective.
I love Bull Rush (at least the idea of it, i've never played that maneuver).
I love also the idea of being a small lil guy on a wolf or such (i always wanted to play one), but i guess, even if being smaller (as a mount and PC) could help in a setting like this (GM said we're gonna be mainly in towns), size matters for maneuvers and such stuff right?
Something that makes me curious is the Orc Ram (Reach, available with no feat if Half Orc).. is there something viable with this weapon?