So one of the primary complaints I see about Mystics (which I play and do consistent research on, so I see this complaint a lot!) is that they are completely 100% absolutely useless in Space Battles, which are meant to be a consistent aspect of most Starfinder campaigns, and are actually really cool and fun in my opinion, for everyone but me!
So I'm interested in hearing other people's input on ways to remind everyone that this is a universe with magic, and don't you think, as everything else in the universe evolved and adapted to technology and space travel, that magic would have as well?? Technomancer spell lists certainly seem to think so, so why are there no spells that affect ship to ship combat?!
Just thinking about all the cool things they could do with this is dizzying, which makes it even crazier that the existence of magic simply ceases at the edge of a space battle, and resumes after it is over. Two ways to approach this spring to mind immediately, and I'm definitely looking for more fun ideas, and hoping some of them get some traction with Paizo so spellcasters can stop being flies on the wall of every cool space battle!
1. Spells meant for Ship to Ship Combat: Definitely the easiest and simplest solution, and adds the additional tactical level of having to decide how much of your spell list you want dedicated to space combat, as well as which spells to prepare when you're starting the day approaching a planet, but may end it actually dirtside!
2. Ship equipment that benefits from Magic: How about a device that lets you sacrifice a spell slot to boost the shields, or supercharge the engines? "Enemies approaching on radar, Mystic, get to the Arcanomatrix and boost our weapons systems!" This again introduces the tactical aspect of your casters deciding how much of the days resources they want to sacrifice to assist in the battle, which I think is way more fun than the current option as a Mystic, which is "Well, I can be a mediocre gunner, or I could just sleep through this and hope it pans out!"
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IMO it looks as though the space combat system was written separately from the rest of the system, either by someone else or in an extreme hurry at the end. It works very differently and has the rule about no effect from the rest of the system working there unless specified, which means only BAB, skill ranks and ability modifiers carry over by default. With the FAQratta later 'any class feature that grants bonuses to or allows rerolls with the relevant skill applies'. For more you need homebrew.
Ascalaphus had some good ideas but I didn't hear that they carried that on any further.
You do your argument little good by starting with ridiculous hyperbole.
Meta, I'm sorry you misunderstood what I was writing, but as you can see if you re-read carefully, I wasn't making that statement, I was pointing out that it was a common statement I see on the forums! If you read a bit further down in my post, you'll see my personal feelings on the matter in the "Well I guess I can be a sub-par gunner or just sleep through the fight" line, which accurately represents my feelings on a Mystic's role in a ship to ship battle.
This also assumes a group of 4 - 5 people with a relatively well balanced party, where its safe to assume you're going to have an INT based character who is much better for Computers/Engineering, and a Dex based character who is much better for piloting and gunnery.
Now there's a decent argument that a Mystic could make an okay captain, though I feel charisma based characters make massively more sense for the role, and will excel to a far greater degree (we have a Lashuntan Solarian who is a substantially better captain than my Shirren Mystic on paper, and RP-wise), but I digress.
The real point of the post is discussing the role of the Arcane (or lack thereof) in space battles, and what ideas are out there for bringing ship-to-ship battles into a universe with magic, rather than having them feel like you paused Starfinder to boot up Star Wars!
I apologize again that you misunderstood what I wrote, but I'd love to hear any constructive ideas you have that go to the purpose of the post!
Maybe they wanted the base system to be learned before throwing too many options out there to confuse people?
Overlord and Mindbreaker Mystics make decent captains. There’s an Intimidate boosting augmentation.
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The ship combat system is build, so that every character can fill any role. By design it specifically deny any "This role is for class X".
Forcing this with a "spellcaster only" role now wouldn't be counter-productive.
I agree that there should be some "mythic starship" options, but I would tie them to the ability to cast spells.
In my home game I use different ship types which embraces different skills.
Tech Ships use the standard rules(Pilot, Engineering, Computer)
Biotech ships use: Pilot, Medicine, Life Science
Mage ships use: Pilot, Mysticism, Sense Motive
(each type also has two benefits and one drawback (like the bio ships from the pact worlds book)).
I can think of similar ship modules, which allows every players to use "mythic" power if he e.g. invest in the mysticism skill.
One such module could be a "scrying chamber", where a player can do a ritual which gives him a short look into the future (easier DC for one action on the ship, re-role a check etc.) or the ability to alter the space-time to boost the AC of your ship for a few rounds.
The important part for me would be that this new crew actions aren't bound to any class, so that every character, if he invest in the appropriate skill/feat etc. can do it.
Also keep in mind that the Drift, and by it also the space travel in some sort, is the realm of Triune who is a little bit "anti-magic" (no magic entry or exit for the drift)
There are now mystical systems upgrades available in the Azlanti empire, and as a boon that appears for Organized Play. Ask your GM if you can have a mystical systems upgrade to allow you to use wisdom and mysticism for gunnery in lieu of piloting and dex.
Hmm
That's a start.
Mystical
Source Starfinder #7: The Reach of Empire pg. 49
When attempting a gunnery check with a mystical weapon, which is a hybrid device, a gunner can use ranks in Mysticism in place of her base attack bonus or ranks in Piloting, and her Wisdom modifier in place of her Dexterity modifier.
Aeon Caster (light weapon)
Type: Direct-Fire
Range: Medium
Damage: 3d4
PCU: 10
Cost (in BP): 7
Heavy Aeon Caster (heavy weapon)
Type: Direct-Fire
Range: Medium
Damage: 6d6
PCU: 20
Cost (in BP): 15
But they both also come with: Restricted (Imperial Fleet - Azlanti Star Empire)
The Drone special property is pretty interesting as well, but for high INT characters.
Too bad those came out as an exclusive to the AP and the Azlanti Star Empire - the rest of the galaxy will have to wait for the Starfinder Shipyard book, or hijack some azlanti tech.
These are some great options, I'm considering buying that book now, though it's the next one that has all the good biohacker races.
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So I'm interested in hearing other people's input on ways to remind everyone that this is a universe with magic, and don't you think, as everything else in the universe evolved and adapted to technology and space travel, that magic would have as well?? Technomancer spell lists certainly seem to think so, so why are there no spells that affect ship to ship combat?!
A core rulebook can only have so many pages.
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I think the problem is that the Starship rules in general don't have a lot of connectivity with player options. There are very few skills, feats, (character scale) items, class options, and spells in general that interact with the Starship rules, anywhere. This isn't just a Magic problem. Like others have said in the thread there's a deliberate design choice to make sure that you don't need to be X Class to be best-in-class at Y Starship Role, so that explains part of it, for sure. Still, though, it'd be neat to see feats, items, augmentations, etc., that give you a boost in Starship combat.
Off the top of my head, I can think of only one feat (Sky Jockey) that does anything with starships. I may be missing some though....definitely reply if there are others?
For example, what about, like, a Far Shot Feat to lessen range penalties in space combat. Or a brain augmentation to give you "ship-system telepathy" that lets you once a day assume two starship roles at once for a round. Or a conjuration spell to summon a big ol' asteroid in the middle of a space fight to create something to maneuver around or block line of sight. Or, heck, dive right into that class fantasy and let solarians have a fancy zenith power to create a black hole in the middle of a dogfight!
Of course, the fact that there's relatively little interaction across the board (as opposed to just for Magical stuff) means that a "Starfinder Aramadas" book is just ripe to be made :)
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There are now mystical systems upgrades available in the Azlanti empire, and as a boon that appears for Organized Play. Ask your GM if you can have a mystical systems upgrade to allow you to use wisdom and mysticism for gunnery in lieu of piloting and dex.
Hmm
That's a start.
Mystical
Source Starfinder #7: The Reach of Empire pg. 49
When attempting a gunnery check with a mystical weapon, which is a hybrid device, a gunner can use ranks in Mysticism in place of her base attack bonus or ranks in Piloting, and her Wisdom modifier in place of her Dexterity modifier.But they both also come with: Restricted (Imperial Fleet - Azlanti Star Empire)
The Drone special property is pretty interesting as well, but for high INT characters.
Too bad those came out as an exclusive to the AP and the Azlanti Star Empire - the rest of the galaxy will have to wait for the Starfinder Shipyard book, or hijack some azlanti tech.
These are some great options, I'm considering buying that book now, though it's the next one that has all the good biohacker races.
That's why I suggested that the OP check with their GM. If you're not in Organized Play, i think having a mystical systems upgrade is perfectly reasonable in a home game. I offered it to my players in Dead Suns if they wanted it. I do want to see it become a more prevalent option.
Hmm
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Simple answer.
Starship combat was an after-thought system. I mean, it's designed with FIVE roles in mind, but the core system assumes 4 player characters, as well as the APs. On top of that there's the BPs system that has nothing to do with money somehow, just a very loose abstraction to prevent players from using their money to get stronger over having a starship. The lack of spells, feats and other nice stuff is just the least glaring hole in the whole thing.
To me, I think Starfinder would've benefited more from having no space combat at all in the CRB and a lot of what should've been on the CRB, but was left for the armory, would be more beneficial. That way, they could release a full book focused solely on space combat with a system that's actually well integrated instead of being just a mini-game that breaks a lot of world-consistency for the sake of avoiding mechanical exploits.
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Lightning, I definitely sympathize on the 5 roles / 4 Player conundrum, we're having the same issue in our campaign (4 players), and our GM is sticking to RAW so we just have to operate without a Captain, as ironically that role is the least painful to have to do without in actual gameplay. I really wish they had just allowed RAW for the "captain" role to be filled by any other crew member, especially since all of the captain "actions" are just talking, could we really not have allowed for the Pilot to be able to speak and pull a joy-stick at the same time?
Anyway, I definitely agree that I hope there's a splatbook for ships relatively soon that opens up the Azlanti systems to more general use, as well as adds some additional roles for magic in the ship-to-ship aspect of the game. Its too late for my Mystic (I've already just accepted the lack of caster support in space combat and devoted WAY more resources to Piloting/Dexterity than I ever wanted to, and more than makes sense for my character from an RP standpoint, but I don't want to be an anchor in every space battle we get into so eff me right?) but it would be great if this didn't keep happening to every other player out there who was willing to be the party healer/support/cc caster, only to find out they forgot that role existed when they designed space combat.
I understand about not wanting to have a class requirement or "best in slot" for ship roles so to speak, but having an arcane caster available dirtside gives a party options that an all mundane party simply doesn't have, that's just how it is, and that's always been fine, so why should that be stripped out of the ship-to-ship aspect?
Well the game only has like five total hard covers, barely ten APs, and no dedicated Companion or Campaign line. Did you think that everything in the entire game was going to have options for everything in one year? Didn't it take them like fifteen years to bring psychic classes to Pathfinder?
Well lets say we give the space wizards a spell that affects spaceship combat. It either teleports a missile through a black hole or is a blast so powerful it rips open starship hulls.
... then what prevents the wizard from doing that in combat with a gun or to a small building?
Because it's a spell that affects spaceship combat? Much like you can't used spaceship guns on regular targets?
that gets a little hard to justify on a building.
Though spells that enhance spaceships or the space wizards ability to do spaceship jobs would probably be better. If they could boost a spaceship weapon's damage or accuracy, that could easily be effective and apply just as well to regular combat.
But would be kind of eating the envoy an operatives lunch.
Well lets say we give the space wizards a spell that affects spaceship combat. It either teleports a missile through a black hole or is a blast so powerful it rips open starship hulls.... then what prevents the wizard from doing that in combat with a gun or to a small building?
Yeah. Starship scale spells would be a problem.
I do like the idea of weapons, shields, countermeasures, and other various starship equipment that is either powered by spell slots, or controlled through mysticism checks, or both.
For example: Spell Shields that are recharged by spell slots. Pouring the power of a spell slot into it recharges slot level x10 shield points. Probably only want to use those in an emergency or at some point where you aren't expecting to need to cast spells for a while.
Something like that.
Well lets say we give the space wizards a spell that affects spaceship combat. It either teleports a missile through a black hole or is a blast so powerful it rips open starship hulls.... then what prevents the wizard from doing that in combat with a gun or to a small building?
Simple answer. The spell takes a LONG time to cast. What about 1 min casting time? This solves the problem, right? Because Starship combat rounds last a lot longer than 6 seconds. Simple. In fact, I would even prefer it to be like that because you could use it in normal combat but only with a very well made set up.
Sit on a mountain and blow up a building with the bad guy in it from 12 miles out isnthe kind of firepower youd need to be relevant in starship combat
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I would make it take up an expansion Bay and work very similar to Ritual Magic. That would justify being able to cast spells on ships and not being able to cast them outside of them.
Just give the spells straight to the starship, instead of the characters.
You could just give the starship scale spell an alternate effect when used in regular combat. If the spell is a projectile attack that can effectively damage a starship's hull, the alternate effect could deal normal damage with an additional effect, like giving it a line weapon quality, for example, to represent its ability to pierce through tough objects. Spells that can destroy starship walls already exist, such as disintegrate, but lack the range necessary to participate in starship combat.
For the sake of balance, a starship scale projectile shouldn't be sniping things from miles away. Remember, the game has stats for vehicles such as assault fighters, massive hover tanks, and even flying battle cruisers that are larger than most skyscrapers, as well as a small selection of "ground monsters" that do participate in starship combat, and none of them can do this. So there's no reason to say this can't apply to a starship scale spell that's in the form of a projectile in normal combat. If it's going to be overpowered, that's because of the sheer versatility of the spell, not because it can damage a starship's hull or because of an unnecessary desire to give it an ungodly range.
Maybe the Target line just says Target: 1 Starship . problem solved.
Maybe the Target line just says Target: 1 Starship . problem solved.
I'd buy that in a spell gem, but never choose it as a known spell.
Maybe the Target line just says Target: 1 Starship . problem solved.
Nah, you'd need line of sight and effect, so you'd need to be outside the ship...
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I like the idea of "magic starship bays" as a standalone thing, so that magical starship combat doesn't have to be class-locked. But it could also be something that you'd require as a focus component for some spells.
And yeah, maybe you could also put a room like that in a truck. It's the future, destroying buildings isn't as out of bounds.
I've gotten some raised eyebrows for suggesting we fix some "problems" in the AP with our starship weapons, but the argument often boils down to "the book says you're supposed to keep ground combat and starship combat separate so you're doing badwrongfun". Or things like "yeah it makes total sense from the PCs point of view but it makes things easier than the writer wanted so you just can't".
Making starship level spells dependent on there actually being a starship involved seems like a decent begin of balancing them. By the time they're deploying starship spells against surface targets, they could also be deploying the ship's main cannons against those surface targets.
Luckily for everyone involved the wonderful creators of this game we play actually listen and care that we have fun playing the game so I'm not too worried about Starships not being addressed eventually with expanded options. I have voiced my concerns with the battles as well and I think that the base system has solid fundamentals it just needs more options and flamboyance.