Goblin Song vs Intimidate

[Atalius]

Is there more to the Goblin Song ability? "If ur successful, target takes -1 conditional penalty to perception checks and will saves for 1 round". I am aware with expert and legendary the number of people you can affect increases, I was wondering if the penalty increases to -2 to will saves or anything later on?

Just from what I've read Intimidate seems much better, is that an accurate statement?

[Edge93]

At it's base it's not necessarily better than Demoralize, though it works on things immune to fear. It's main perks are as follows:

Uses Performance instead of Intimidate

Later levels it effects multiple foes, very nice for a single action ability.

On a crit success, rather than getting a stronger debuff you get a longer one. This can be nice since fear fades quickly.

The main downside is that it effects less things than fear does, but it has its perks to where it can be very worthwhile if you build for it. Especially that multi-target.

[Dasrak]

Keep in mind there's nothing stopping you from doing both. While it's true they don't stack, the penalty from goblin song makes intimidate more likely to work in the first place.

[Atalius]

In regards to Intimidate, frightened states:

Frightened
You’re gripped by fear and struggle to control your Nerves. The frightened condition always includes a value. You take a conditional penalty equal to this value to your checks and saving throws. Unless specified otherwise, at the end of each of your turns, the value of
your frightened condition decreases by 1.

What exactly are "checks"? Would Armor Class take a penalty also?

[Edge93]

"Checks" is a catch-all term referring to any attack roll, skill check, or saving throw. And Frightened and Sick do penalize AC also, I son't recall the exact language but the FAQ in the errata explains that when something penalizes checks as a whole it also penalize AC and also your DCs, so it even makes your spells and such easier to resist if you are debuffed.

Relevant text from the FAQ in the errata:
~~~
Do conditions that penalize my checks also penalize my DCs? Yes. Any condition that imposes a penalty on all your checks also applies to your DCs. For example, frightened causes you to take a conditional penalty to your checks, so your AC would take the penalty as well. In this case, specifying “and saves” caused undue confusion—we’ll keep this in mind to ensure the wording of all such conditions will be clearer in the final text.
~~~

(End FAQ text)
And by extension Sick also penalizes your AC and DCs since it too penalizes all checks.

[Atalius]

Awesome reply thanks Edge. Do you know what a -1 penalty to perception will do to an enemy? Does it do anything of significance?

[Edge93]

Atalius wrote:

Awesome reply thanks Edge. Do you know what a -1 penalty to perception will do to an enemy? Does it do anything of significance?

It pretty much only helps if you have an ally that uses Stealth or Feint. Those are the only in-combat things I can think of that go against Perception.

Oh, and Stealth Spell, if a caster is trying to conceal casting in combat for some reason, it hurts the chance of the enemy to notice.

[Alchemic_Genius]

While not the most devastating thing, I can imagine goblin song would be nice for bards looking to soften up will saves for a mass targeted will save attack. I do wish the intensity got a bump from a crit though.

[Atalius]

What's the benefit of using Performance instead of Intimidate for Goblin Song? They are both Charisma based skills?

[Edge93]

Yes, but if you are a character that was already going to be using performance but wan't interested in Intimidation this is a minor perk. Just means one less skill you have to focus on.

It was less of a straight advantage and more of a hey, some characters will be cool with this.

[Atalius]

Ah yes I see. What else would you recommend Performance for? If I'm going to be using Goblin Song frequently should I pump up my Performance to expert then master?

[Edge93]

If you're going to be using Goblin Song then yeah, I'd definitely say go up to Master ASAP. Possibly Legendary but that's less important, going from 2 to 4 targets is more useful than 4 to 8.

As for Performance, it's mostly a Roleplay/out of combat skill, so its uses really depend on your character. Unless you are a Bard, then you should be absolutely maxing Performance, as several class features tie to it.

[Atalius]

Thanks! I'm a Goblin Wizard, the other characters in my party have Intimidate already. I figure Goblin Song to soften up the enemy before our Cleric casts a Fear spell might be an order.