Spoilers on Update 1.5 from the Twitch Stream

[Tridus]

Midnightoker wrote:

1 minute and 40 seconds per combatant to act is break neck speed.

Even in PF1 and 3.5/3.0 where I had a thorough system mastery (I was definitely the "rules lawyer" kid growing up) never did we achieve such fast speeds.

If anyone else has experienced this type of speed, and they can actually point to what exactly in the rules allowed them to achieve it, I'd be all ears.

I have. My second playtest Cleric in Sombrefell Hall typically had very fast turns. At that point I knew what he could do, what those things did, and usually what I wanted to do on my turn before it came around, because I was playing as a healer/support caster. I had turns that were literally under 60 seconds, because it was "Move, Channel Heal, roll (and for Heal I already have the 7d8 ready), Raise Shield, Done."

That wasn't always the case. If I had to look up a spell it could take longer if I couldn't find it before my turn. If I was doing AoE it took a LOT longer because the DM had to roll multiple saves and record damage on multiple enemies on top of every player that was affected. If the group was discussing what to do it could take hugely longer, of course. But group interaction I don't tend to count as turn time in the same way.

I can do similar speeds in PF1 for relatively simple turns, but if I start using Quicken spells and weird high level stuff, that gets slow quickly. The playtest absolutely can support fast turns in my experience, but it requires you to not need to go to the book for anything and that level of system mastery just isn't in place yet.

Quote:

As far as I can tell though, the consensus from others does not seem to be nearly as quick combat.

The other players at my table vary a fair bit in turn speed. I was on the fast end. I started getting bored occasionally because I'd have a 50 second turn and then wait 10 minutes to do anything again. Some of that is unavoidable due to cognitive differences amongst the players, as some players find it really challenging to determine what they want to do in advance of their turn while others (like me) find it easier and engaging to do so.

In terms of possible speed, I'll absolutely back up Dire Ursus's numbers as being entirely doable from my first hand experience. :)

[Midnightoker]

Dire Ursus wrote:

I don't think anyone said that the game runs faster than PF1? I would hate that because I find PF1 combat WAY too fast.

Again I think it depends, but it seems speed is a hard variable to define.

To me, 6 rounds is a lot

[DM_aka_Dudemeister]

How are we defining speed here?

Because 6 rounds could take an hour, or it could take 20 minutes, or in a particularly complicated battle, it could take 3 hours plus a snack-break in Pathfinder 1E, especially once you get past level 11+.

[Dire Ursus]

DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

How are we defining speed here?

Because 6 rounds could take an hour, or it could take 20 minutes, or in a particularly complicated battle, it could take 3 hours plus a snack-break in Pathfinder 1E, especially once you get past level 11+.

This is all definitely true. All I was trying to say is last session it felt like we hit a sweet spot for encounter length for a sub-boss creature. It went 6 rounds and took about 1 hour 15 mins and I didn't even have to change anything about the encounter. Which would be unheard of in 1e.

[PossibleCabbage]

I care a lot about "total minutes of real time spent doing combat" and not at all about "how many rounds combat is" except as it affects the former.

So I would rather play a 10 round combat where each round takes 5 minutes than a 3 round combat where each round takes 20 minutes.

[Edge93]

Dire Ursus wrote:

I feel like people who have combats that are taking a real long time might just have unprepared GMs. You really need to take some time before each session to understand how each enemy works. Many creatures have unique abilities, effects, and reactions so I can definitely see how GMs will get hung up during combat if they come unprepared.

Players too need to understand how their character works and shouldn't be flipping to look at their feats and stuff, but my group is pretty good about that. Our first session rounds were definitely a bit longer but that's to be expected when we were all noobs with the system.

Yeah, as a GM I have a bit of this. I've been taking more time to really study up the enemies and it's helped but we're still taking like 2 hours per 5-round-ish combat. I'm taking it up a degree on my studying for the next Heroes of Undarin session (They've made it through 4 fights with VERY little resource expenditure, I'm actually quite impressed with their progress and hopeful it will continue), we will see if it makes a difference.

I think my big delay is that I second guess myself so freaking much and don't just trust my memory even though I know I have the best head for numbers at our table generally. Like fighting the Babaus in fight 3, I knew their AC, their accuracy, their HP, their spell roll modifier, but I kept checking my stupid index cards to make sure. I'd have probably saved at least 15-20 minutes if I'd cut that out. XD So I'm trying to memorize the AC, saves, accuracy, and DCs for all the foes they might face next time, along with their tactics. Going alright so far, I think I'll have them down in time. XD

[Mangar]

ChibiNyan wrote:

EDIT: I realize boosting them too much will create a "Rocket Tag" effect. But that is the consequence of having so few slots. If something can only be used once or twice a day, people expect it to be REALLY GOOD. Expectations lower when its more abundant, like the old Spell Points. Also they should be compared with how Martial damage has changed for new edition, and let me tell you that it's probably improved, not weakened along with spells.

Not sure if I missed any useful discussion on this point, but it seems damage spells in the playtest are fairly well balanced on a per-action model. Rather than bump the numbers higher, I'd prefer see the per-day restriction go the way of barbarian rage rounds.

Maybe even follow it so completely that spellcasters must wait a number of actions equal to the spell level they just cast before using a non-cantrip again. With the typical 10 round duration on the longer combat buffs, losing a few rounds to cooldown (not going to sugar coat this) will make the over-buff playstyle ineffective.
I haven't thought out this model much past the time it took to post it, so I'm sure someone can crunch numbers can come up with better details.

[Cyouni]

Vic Ferrari wrote:

Midnightoker wrote:

Dire Ursus wrote:

I'm really surprised that people find 6 rounds of combat ridiculous... It was an hour long fight for us. It was definitely not longer than 10 minutes a round. And like I said that was a perfect length for a sub-boss. Not every single encounter. I don't think a couple of goblin mooks should last 6 rounds obviously, and they haven't in our experience.

So if it was an hour long that means:

- Each round took on average 10 minutes

- Each actor in that round (if we assume a party of 4) with your dragon and giant took less than 2 minutes to act in full

Now I'm not going to ask how you managed to have 4 PC's and 2 Monsters all act in less than 2 minutes (including all rolls, saves, movements, etc.) or dispute the fact that it happened.

What I am going to say is that I have never experienced this in any table top game what so ever.

1 minute and 40 seconds per combatant to act is break neck speed.

Even in PF1 and 3.5/3.0 where I had a thorough system mastery (I was definitely the "rules lawyer" kid growing up) never did we achieve such fast speeds.

If anyone else has experienced this type of speed, and they can actually point to what exactly in the rules allowed them to achieve it, I'd be all ears.

Yeah, as usual, you get some pretty fishy claims when a new edition rolls out, take them with a giant grain of salt.

Eh, my group did the last four combats of Sombrefell Hall in four hours (around 4-5 rounds for each combat, plus stuff in between), plus a 20-30 minute break in the middle. And my group's definitely not the fastest - oftentimes it takes a few times of me calling them for them to realize their turn's come up.

[HWalsh]

Vic Ferrari wrote:

Cyouni wrote:

Vic Ferrari wrote:

Midnightoker wrote:

Dire Ursus wrote:

I'm really surprised that people find 6 rounds of combat ridiculous... It was an hour long fight for us. It was definitely not longer than 10 minutes a round. And like I said that was a perfect length for a sub-boss. Not every single encounter. I don't think a couple of goblin mooks should last 6 rounds obviously, and they haven't in our experience.

So if it was an hour long that means:

- Each round took on average 10 minutes

- Each actor in that round (if we assume a party of 4) with your dragon and giant took less than 2 minutes to act in full

Now I'm not going to ask how you managed to have 4 PC's and 2 Monsters all act in less than 2 minutes (including all rolls, saves, movements, etc.) or dispute the fact that it happened.

What I am going to say is that I have never experienced this in any table top game what so ever.

1 minute and 40 seconds per combatant to act is break neck speed.

Even in PF1 and 3.5/3.0 where I had a thorough system mastery (I was definitely the "rules lawyer" kid growing up) never did we achieve such fast speeds.

If anyone else has experienced this type of speed, and they can actually point to what exactly in the rules allowed them to achieve it, I'd be all ears.

Yeah, as usual, you get some pretty fishy claims when a new edition rolls out, take them with a giant grain of salt.

Eh, my group did the last four combats of Sombrefell Hall in four hours (around 4-5 rounds for each combat, plus stuff in between), plus a 20-30 minute break in the middle. And my group's definitely not the fastest - oftentimes it takes a few times of me calling them for them to realize their turn's come up.

*breaks out snowstorm salt-shaker*

Do I need to twitch stream my every other Thursday PF2 group to PROVE to you that combat isn't slow once the group gets into a groove?

[Deadmanwalking]

In terms of combat, my group takes a little longer than the short numbers listed, I think...but we've gotten through every adventure in two four hour sessions at most (or thereabouts). Given the number of encounters per adventure, and the fact that we spend at least 1/3 of that time outside of combat, I think that caps our combats at an hour and a half at most, for the very longest of them (Chapter 4 was definitely about seven hours of play over two sessions, with 4 fights and a fair amount of non-fight stuff...that's between an hour and an hour and a half per fight).

A fair amount of that is down to most rounds people spend at least one action doing something unrolled (casting a buff spell or moving, for example), often two. One or two rolls per person per turn just don't take that long.

Rounds where people attack three times or do something else involving a lot of rolling take longer, obviously, but those are the exception rather than the rule for many characters in many fights.

Of course, I don't think any of the fights in that chapter went more than 7 rounds (you can measure by Barbarian Rage)...but I do think all went 4 or more (again, Rage is indicative).

[Dire Ursus]

Vic Ferrari wrote:

Midnightoker wrote:

Dire Ursus wrote:

I'm really surprised that people find 6 rounds of combat ridiculous... It was an hour long fight for us. It was definitely not longer than 10 minutes a round. And like I said that was a perfect length for a sub-boss. Not every single encounter. I don't think a couple of goblin mooks should last 6 rounds obviously, and they haven't in our experience.

So if it was an hour long that means:

- Each round took on average 10 minutes

- Each actor in that round (if we assume a party of 4) with your dragon and giant took less than 2 minutes to act in full

Now I'm not going to ask how you managed to have 4 PC's and 2 Monsters all act in less than 2 minutes (including all rolls, saves, movements, etc.) or dispute the fact that it happened.

What I am going to say is that I have never experienced this in any table top game what so ever.

1 minute and 40 seconds per combatant to act is break neck speed.

Even in PF1 and 3.5/3.0 where I had a thorough system mastery (I was definitely the "rules lawyer" kid growing up) never did we achieve such fast speeds.

If anyone else has experienced this type of speed, and they can actually point to what exactly in the rules allowed them to achieve it, I'd be all ears.

Yeah, as usual, you get some pretty fishy claims when a new edition rolls out, take them with a giant grain of salt.

Yeah. A 6 round combat taking 1 hour 15 minutes. SO DAMN FISHY.

[magnuskn]

Dire Ursus wrote:

I feel like people who have combats that are taking a real long time might just have unprepared GMs. You really need to take some time before each session to understand how each enemy works. Many creatures have unique abilities, effects, and reactions so I can definitely see how GMs will get hung up during combat if they come unprepared.

Players too need to understand how their character works and shouldn't be flipping to look at their feats and stuff, but my group is pretty good about that. Our first session rounds were definitely a bit longer but that's to be expected when we were all noobs with the system.

I'm pretty quick with my group, but I still need to juggle three rulebooks and stacks of monster sheets on my knees, while keeping attention on everybody. My guys in the Tuesday/Thursday group are luckily all quite experienced, but even they have problems keeping track of how many bonuses they are stacking after buffs (I can't count the times when players discovered that they forgot to add a +1 or even several of them to their attacks). Still, if you get to higher levels and the terrain isn't perfectly polite to the players, things start to take their time. As I said, the final boss fight for the last AP took 10 rounds, which went to three hours of play, just because everybody had a lot going on.

And these are the optimal conditions. If you got one person who suffers from recurring option paralysis and doesn't choose their action during the other people's turns, fights can double in length. And often those people are your personal friends, so you are not going to weigh the option of kicking them out of the group.