Interesting Unchained Rogue builds

[Blue_Sky]

I apologize for posting again so soon. I have another inquiry.

A group I'm joining has a party comp of conjure wiz, melee cleric, and switch hit ranger. Seeing as the role left to be filled is rogue, I'm having a bit of a tough time making it reliable enough to contribute anything inside of combat. We're running the feat tax system from "The elephant in the room."

Any suggestions? I'm open to anything you guys got. Front line or ranged doesn't matter much to me. Point buy is 20, and it's not pfs. Only paizo.

[Blue_Sky]

I realized I dont have much in the way of what I'd like to aim for. Sneak Attack doesnt seem to be efficient since a d8 class has to get in melee in order to use it. Even then, sneak attack doesnt work on the majority of the nasties out there, so maybe there's an archetype that replaces it for something better? The skills are awesome, and I like being able to do everything outside of combat, but while inside, I'm a wizard without spells and a butter knife.

I have no idea what I'm doing. >.<

[Meirril]

The key to a melee rogue is as many attacks as possible, and having a reliable method to get flanking. So you really need to talk to the melee cleric.

Melee cleric isn't normally a big damage dealer. Usually its worth using the cleric's move to give you flanking. If the 2 of you are actually working as a team you delay your initive so the 2 of you are going back to back so the monster's actions can't disrupt your combination. Even if the cleric is a heavy hitter between his and your 5' step you should always have flanking.

So lets talk about building something effective. Unchained Rogue gets Dex to hit at first level. At 3rd level they get Dex to damage. Keep your strength at 10 and pump dex. Con and Int are also good stats to put some points in. If you like talking to NPCs put points in Charisma and take some skills. If not, leave it to someone else and put some points in Wis if you can afford to. A +1 to will save and perception is good. Don't push beyond 12 wis, its too expensive for the benefit.

For race anything that gives you a bonus to dex without making you useless otherwise. Don't chose a race that gives you a penalty to int. Rogue is a skill based class, keep at least 8 skill points. Charisma really is the only safe dump stat for a Rogue. You'll want strength to carry stuff.

Two weapon fighting is almost mandatory. This allows you to fight with 2 light weapons at a -2. Totally worth taking the -2 penalty to all of your attacks to swing twice. Not worth it to take a -4 penalty, the off hand needs to be a light weapon. You can also throw with both hands, so if you go all daggers you can weapon focus: dagger and get +1 to hit if you go melee or ranged.

While it is cheezy, there is the whole thing about worshiping Phrasma, and taking Deific Obedience to get a +2 bonus to daggers. I kind of hate this but its really desirable.

There are a lot of ways to push the build from there, but you also don't really need to. Instead of dumping a bunch of feats into making yourself a better fighter, you might consider putting some feats into being a better rogue. Skill focus on perception for instance. Personally I like picking up minor magic and a spell book, plus UMD to become a fake wizard/sorcerer.

One last consideration: Towards the end game 3/4 BAB classes like Rogue have a tough time keeping up with rising AC. Being able to hit Touch instead of normal AC helps a lot. If you build for it, you could be a two pistol wielding maniac that delivers ranged Sneak attacks. If you are starting at a high level say something and maybe I'll post a build or two to consider.

[Blue_Sky]

We're starting at level one, and seeing how far it will take us. Do you play a twf rogue like a gish, or what do you do with them?

[Heather 540]

If you don't care much about Sneak Attack, you can try the Phantom Thief archetype. You lose Sneak Attack, Trapfinding, Trap Sense, and Debilitating Injury. But you gain everything but Fly as a class skill, get more Skill Unlocks, and can take Combat Trick and Minor/Major Magic talents multiple times. You can also take Skill Focus multiple times as a talent.

Alternatively, you could also try a dip into Hunter and get an animal companion. That can help with flanking, which can help with getting sneak attacks. You will want the Boon Companion feat if you do this. And since you're using Elephant in the Room, you don't have to worry about taking Combat Expertise. That's a pre-req to Pack Flanking, which means that you and your animal companion are always flanking if adjacent or sharing a square. But your companion need the feat too, so it might not be viable if you don't have a way to share teamwork feats.

[avr]

There's plenty of interesting rogue archetypes. The phantom thief Heather mentions sacrifices all combat ability though, I don't recommend it. A dreamthief loses sneak attack for more interesting stuff for example.

What do you need out of the rogue exactly though? Sneaking and dealing with traps, or anything more, or is it just the rogue class name you wanted?

Edit: a TWF melee rogue is your classic glass cannon. A bit of set up to get flanks or however else you're getting sneak attack, but always, always, have an escape plan.

[Blue_Sky]

I'm looking for a skill monkey with trap finding and usefulness in melee. I don't really want spells. I just want something that can contribute in a meaningful way without giving up an arm and a leg.

[juantamad]

A lot of Archetypes replace Trapfinding and Trapsense, so I don't think you'd want any of those.

While you said you don't really want spells, a Counterfeit Mage gets the same bonuses as Trapfinding and Trapsense but can also apply that to Use Magic Device. Having a wand of Vanish seems pretty useful to me, or being able to sponge off your Wizard's scrolls. Having scrolls in general is like having Batman's utility belt.

Scout isn't bad, seeing how you get to deal Sneak attacks on a charge. Just hold your action and let your Cleric close in first, or your Wizard to summon monsters.

Underground Chemist lets you deal Sneak attacks with splash weapons- which can hit against one of your banes of Sneak attack, swarms.

Regardless you're going to be Dexterity focused. Maybe go Half-Elf with Ancestral Weapon and pick up an Elven Branched Spear so you can hit from a little further away?

[BadBird]

The issue for a stereotypical Rogue in combat isn't the hit die, it's the lack of inherent attack bonus, the lack of defense, and the fact that they have to set up Sneak Attack to do much damage.

Being a "Rogue" for traps and skills doesn't mean you have to be a pure-class Rogue. Rogues basically have a giant "multiclass me!" sign on them, and you can be a greatsword-wielding plate-wearing character and still have many Rogue levels for traps and skills. Weapon Master Fighter, Scarred Rager Barbarian, Urban Barbarian, Sacred Fist, Warpriest, Oracle, Druid even and more are all possible effective multiclass Rogue options. They can be agile, be heavy, use feints, use Ninja Tricks, use buffing and blinding spells, whatever.

Just as an example, a half-elf Rogue/Oracle can pick up spells to substantially increase skill and combat effectiveness, blind with a swift action, and turn invisible, while still taking at least enough Rogue for Sneak, skills, traps and Debilitating Injury.

[calagnar]

I highly recommend you look in to the Slayer class. For what you want it will be much easier to play. And it has the advantage of not having to use sneak attack as it's main damage. This is not to say the rogue class is bad, or you can't make a good rogue. This is based on that rogue need a experienced tactician behind them to work to there max capacity.

My suggestion is you make a switch hitting Slayer along side the ranger. That why you are complementing each other in combat and not in each others way. So you start out as range and end up in melee. This is much easier to pull off then it looks at first. You only need quick draw. Then to pick if your going to put most of your feet's in archery or melee combat. You may find that with two archers. Melee combat portion is very short. As you have done most of your damage at range.

Very short brake down on Slayer.
6 skill ranks a level
Full Base Attack Bonus
sneak attack damage
Slayer talents: You can pick up trapfinding, along with Ranger combat styles.

[Meirril]

So I've never build this before but I want to explore the idea of a blackpowder rogue.

The idea is to start with daggers but eventually work towards using pistols in melee combat. This kind of makes Point Blank Mastery really important. That means getting Weapon Specialization which is normally kind of hard as a rogue. But there is a race that can do it. The stats aren't ideal, but they work well enough.

So we start with a Ganzi with weaponplay as its racial trait.

Stats: Str 11 Dex 18 Con 12 (+2) Wis 12 Int 12 (-2) Cha 7 (+2)

Not exactly ideal rogue stats, but not really bad. Access to fighter feats is hopefully going to make up for the lack of a 20 dex. Class wise we're going pure Unchained Rogue with no Archetype.

Skill wise lets do this: Perception, Disable Device, UMD, KS: Religion, Acrobatics, Linguistics, stealth, swim.

Flee free to change up whatever you want to for skills, but speaking multiple languages is really good. Perception and disable device are kind of mandatory if you are doing the trap thing.

Level choices:
1: Two Weapon Fighting. You can use any martial weapon thanks to race. A Rapier and a Kukri in the off hand will give you a 18-20 crit in both hands. Carry daggers for throwing if you get to act first opponents should be flat footed.
2: Canny Observer (because we're a trap finder first, melee second)
3: Deidific Obedience: Pharasma, to get that sweet sweet +2 to hit with daggers. Also choose daggers for your Finess weapon. Now you're all daggers all the time. You can stop ranking KS: Religion.
4: Weapon Training: Weapon Focus(Dagger) [never spend gold on getting a better dagger. Just take what comes. Save cash for guns]
5: Weapon Specialization(Dagger)
6: Combat Trick: Point Blank Shot
7: Precise Shot
8: Firearm Training: Exotic Weapon(firearms) acquired! The grand betrayal happens now. Beg the group for enough downtime to retrain 3 feats. Retrain Weapon Focus and Specialization into Pistol, and Deidific Obedience into Point Blank Mastery. Take all of the cash you've saved up and buy 2 +1 shadowshooting reliable pistols. Drop reliable if you can't afford it. If you can afford it Shadowcrafted pistols are better. Remember that Pistols are one handed weapons, not light so you take a -4 to hit with them.
9+ go where your heart takes you.

[BadBird]

As well as Slayer, Urban Ranger offers Trapfinding and will mix with other interesting Ranger Archetypes like Wild Stalker and Guide. Even Sorcerer and Oracle can get Trapfinding through the Seeker Archetype.

[Blue_Sky]

Switch hitting slayer it is. I can make that work. Thank you.

[Greg.Everham]

There's a super hilarious rogue talent from Champions of Balance that allows you to turn the penalty for trying a combat maneuver and getting hit with an AoO into a bonus. I am currently playing a UC Rogue (Half-orc w/ the Skulking Slayer and Scout archetypes) that uses it. He's got 18 CON and 14 STR to power the CMB bonus. He basically saunters up to an enemy and openly tries to gouge their eyes, provoking an AoO, then hitting them with an absurdly high Dirty Trick check. Once their blind, he's got a dip into Unarmed Fighter to get Cloak and Dagger Style, so now removing a Dirty Trick's debuff provokes and he can apply another debuff from the Dirty Trick list or trip his opponent. 7th level he'll get Greater Dirty Trick and blind opponents for 1 round before they can remove the blindness. Which is enough to straight up kill them or debuff them multiple times over with all sorts of dirty tricks.

Is this a powerful build? Nah, not really. But it's got all sorts of hilarity and awesome built in.

[Slim Jim]

Vexing Dodgers can get flat out gross, especially if you also dip Swashbuckler[Mouser].

[pad300]

This isn't a rogue build, but it can find traps, has an ungodly high perception (1/2 Elf bonus + Skill focus + full trained skill + potentially alertness at later levels). After 3ed level, it can pull any skill in the game out it's butt (Soulbound Puppet > sage Figment familiar = lvl+8 or more in any skill), not to mention significant skills of it's own, and can hold it's own in a fight.

https://paizo.com/threads/rzs42bjm?Occultist-Build#1

[UnArcaneElection]

Some random thoughts:

Underground Chemist doesn't suffer anything other than the Armor Check Penalty and Maximum Dexterity Penalty from wearing Heavy Armor -- that is, wearing Heavy Armor doesn't hose anything like Evasion, because Underground Chemist trades that out. So if you get Heavy Armor Proficiency from a martial dip and can mitigate the Maximum Dexterity and Armor Check Penalty, go ahead and suit up. Meanwhile, Underground Chemist also makes VMC Alchemist (which is normally rather bad, but gives you Alchemist's Bombs at character level 7) actually good, by giving back the Intelligence to Damage on thrown splash weapons (at 2nd level) that VMC Alchemist lacks relative to real Alchemist, and also lets you do Sneak Attack damage with splash weapons (at 4th level), which includes Bombs (and before 7th level, you could use Acid Flasks, Alchemist's Fire, Tangleburn Bags, and Holy Water when applicable). And Underground Chemist DOESN'T trade out Trapfinding, Trap Sense, Uncanny Dodge, or Improved Uncanny Dodge. At 10th level, you get a couple of decent options to take Alchemist Discoveries in place of Rogue Talents.

If you are a Halfling, the Halfling Opportunist prestige class is available to you. While intermediate levels of this aren't great, if you go all the way to 5th level in this, you get to make all of your Attacks of Opportunity be Sneak Attacks. This gets better if you can use a Reach weapon (Elven Branched Spear would be good for the +2 to Attacks of Opportunity, but not being an Elf, you will need Exotic Weapon Proficiency to use one of these effectively). Halfling Opportunitst does have the disadvantage of being a 5 level 3/4 BAB prestige class, which means 2 levels of +0 BAB, but Pathfinder Unchained Fractional Base Bonuses mitigates this.

[Zoin]

If i may ask, why do you say you need to fill the "rogue role" ?
I joined a game where i was told to "fill the rogue role" not so long ago.
I never liked rogues in pathfinder, and hate them even more after playing one.
Fortunately, the rogue died, and played a wizard instead (teleportation school, worldseeker archetype).
The wizard is better than the rogue to fill in the "rogue role" (whatever that means). His invisible flying familiar is better at scouting than the rogue, and if you add divination spells, there is no match.
Not having trapfinding isnt an issue ... mount spell is 100% trap disarming by just having the summoned poney walk in front of the group and take the hits (plus it has loads of other uses). The wizard will have allmost the same number of skill points than the rogue, so will be as much a skill monkey as a rogue.
In combat, a rogue has no staying power, and you can't depend on it's damage. (Low AC, Hit points, hit bonus, static damage etc ...).
Really, i don't get what a rogue can bring to the group.

Your team has a conjuration wizard, so he could fill that spot easyly, and you could play a character that brings more to the group (i'd go with either a second archer or a barbarian if you don't want a caster, or a combat druid to bring in damage, staying power and lots of utility with 9th level spellcasting)

If you really really want to play a rogue, i'd look at the feats that enable you to stealth all the time (hellcat stealth, dampen presence) and utility rogue talents, and focus on scouting, and ranged combat (rogue melee is really that terrible)

If you want melee and trapfinding, you should try investigator. You'll be a better skillmonkey than a rogue (especially an empiricist) you can still dish damage like a rogue (need more preparation and tactics to pull it out) but will bring some nice utility with your alchemy.

Consider going level 1 rogue, then wizard 3, take "Accomplished sneak attacker" and go arcane trickster. You'll be 90% rogue/90% wizard, that's much much better than 100% rogue :) (but not even sure those 90% rogue are a match for the missing 10% wizard)

Sorry, because i know i hate when i ask for help to build a character and people start answering "do something else" but rogues (even unchained ones) are really one of the worst classes in the game, they feel good thematically, but are worst than lots of classes in what they are supposed to do best, and with less versatility than their "competitors".

[LordKailas]

It sounds like what you really are looking for is a character who can deal with traps. As others have said it doesn't have to be a rogue. Below is a listing of different classes and ways they can get trap finding.

Think about what kind of character you would like to play. Maybe rogue fits the bill. In any case once you've decided you can probably make one of the following options work.

Levels listed next to class/archetypes specify at what level that option will give you trap finding.

Base Classes

Spoiler:

Class: Any
Trait: Trap Finder

Class: Any
Bloodline: Skill Focus[disable device] + Imp. Eldritch Heritage[Kobold] + Exotic Weapon Proficiency Whip Feat or Heirloom Weapon(whip) Trait + Consortium Agent(1st)

Class: Alchemist
Archetype(s): Alchemical Trapper[Kobold](4th), Crypt Breaker(1st), Trap Breaker(2nd), Vault Breaker(1st)
Alchemical Trapper Replaces: Discovery(2nd & 4th)
Crypt Breaker Replaces: Bombs (reduced dmg), mutagen, Brew Potion
Trap Breaker Replaces: Poison abilities
Vault Breaker Replaces: Brew Potion, Throw Anything, Poison Use

Class: Bard
Archetype(s): Detective(2nd), Archaeologist(6th)
Detective Replaces: Bardic knowledge, well-versed, versatile performance, inspire courage, inspire greatness, inspire heroics
Archaeologist Replaces: Bardic Performance, well-versed, versatile performance

Class: Barbarian(3rd)
Prestige Class: Exotic Weapon Proficiency Whip Feat or Heirloom Weapon(whip) Trait + Consortium Agent(1st)

Class: Cleric
Domain: Jungle(3rd) + Exotic Weapon Proficiency Whip Feat or Heirloom Weapon(whip) Trait or Favored Weapon(whip)+ Consortium Agent(1st)

Class: Druid
Domain: Jungle(3rd) + Exotic Weapon Proficiency Whip Feat or Heirloom Weapon(whip) Trait + Consortium Agent(1st)

Class: Druid
Archetype(s): Nature Fang(4th)
Slayer Talent: Trapfinding
Nature Fang Replaces: Nature Sense, Wild Empathy, Woodland Stride, Wild Shape, Resist Nature’s Lure, Venom Immunity

Class: Investigator
1st Level Trapfinding

Class: Magus
Archetype(s): Spiderhawk(3rd) at the earliest
Spiderhawk Replaces: Saves, skills, weapons and armor, spells and cantrips, arcane pool, spell recall, improved spell recall, medium armor, bonus feats (11th & 15th), knowledge pool, heavy armor

Class: Ranger
Archetype(s): Trapper(1st), Urban Ranger(3rd)
Trapper Replaces: Spells
Urban Ranger Replaces: Favored terrain, endurance, woodland stride, camouflage, hide in plain sight

Class: Sorcerer
Bloodline: Kobold + Exotic Weapon Proficiency Whip Feat or Heirloom Weapon(whip) Trait + Consortium Agent

Class: Sorcerer
Archetype(s): Seeker(1st)
Replaces: Eschew Materials, Bloodline Power(3rd, 15th)

Class: Slayer
Slayer Talent: Trapfinding

Class: Oracle
Archetype(s): Seeker(1st)
Replaces: Class skills, Revelations (3rd lvl and 15th lvl)

Prestige Classes

Spoiler:

Class: Brother of the Seal(2nd)
Expected Base Class: Monk
Notable Pre-Reqs Imp. Unarmed Strike, Flurry of Blows

Class: Consortium Agent(1st)
Expected Base Class: Rogue
Notable Pre-reqs WP: Whip and Trap Sense or able to cast Detect Secret Doors

Class: Dark Delver(1st)
Expected Base Class: None
Notable Pre-reqs: Must have recovered an object of historical significance from an ancient ruin or similar historic location.

Class: Field Agent(3rd)
Expected Base Class: None
Notable Pre-reqs: Must be an active member of an adventuring society and own a wayfinder

Spells

Spoiler:

Spell: Aram Zey’s Focus aka Trapfinder’s Focus
Level: Alchemist(2nd), Bard(2nd), Sorc/Wizard(2nd)

I put this together in case I found myself in a similar situation where a group needed a trap finder. I could make a character that fills that role without limiting myself to just being a rogue.

[Blue_Sky]

Sorry guys, but again, I picked the slayer. I appreciate your effort though.

[666bender]

well.. here are a few:
Ranger 2 / UR X :
take the style that allow 2 claws.
it's better than 2 weapon fighitng...

if the party have a good front, use 2 whips to attack from afar .

i also like shot on the run with 1 shadow dancer level