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Why does Twin Take down state this:
The second Strike takes a –2 circumstance penalty if the weapon doesn’t have the agile trait.
I mean, if the second strike is already subject to MAP, is that penalty needed? Is this a typo of something held over from Double Slice?
Should be removed right?
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My guess was that there would be some break point where twin takedown got better with two d8 weapons over a d8 and a d6 agile, which it does do at high levels in some corner cases where you get a +4 weapon before you get Masterful Hunter, but since that's such a corner case, (as the treasure table assumes you get that +4 weapon at about the same time as you get Masterful Hunter, and the expected damage benefit is still less than 1 point), it does still seem odd. Especially since, at least to me, if there's any class to dual wield non-agile weapons, it's the ranger.
I'd be fine getting rid of that -2 circumstance penalty, were this not the playtest, as it might be a misprint, but even if it's not it's probably a miscalibration. My gut says it's the latter, as with higher to-hit numbers, which the designers seem to be accounting for, the values are a little higher, in some cases, for the non-agile dual wield, but it's still close enough, that I don't think it's worth the penalty, as any gains in fighting multiple lower level monsters are lost when fighting a big-bad.
I don't think it should use the current MAP at all. I am fine with that and it works well. I am talking about the -2 penalty for non light offhand attack being unnecessary since it already uses MAP.
If anything, double slice is op and needs a nerf, especially in the hands of a rogue.
I completely agree with it being flawed right now. You are looking at a -7 penalty on that second attack. Compare it to the fighter's double slice, which is worded in a way that indicates both of your attacks in that activity use your current multiple attack penalty. I think Twin Takedown should operate the same way, it should use the current MAP for both attacks. Hoping there will be further updates to this feat.Why does Twin Take down state this:
The second Strike takes a –2 circumstance penalty if the weapon doesn’t have the agile trait.I mean, if the second strike is already subject to MAP, is that penalty needed? Is this a typo of something held over from Double Slice?
Should be removed right?
Twin Takedown isn't comparable to Double Slice at all. Now what they used to have, Double Slice, was comparable to Double Slice, but Twin Takedown (and the other feat added at the same time, Hunted Shot) are more like a Monk's Flurry. Applying MAP to the second hit was intentional, as the goal was to make an action that interacted with Hunted Target's (now the Flurry Hunter's Edge) MAP reduction. Considering neither Flurry nor Hunted Shot has that extra penalty though, I'd imagine it's probably an accident.
the goal was to make an action that interacted with Hunted Target's MAP reduction
Which, to be frank, is a trash feature and the interaction in this manner (instead of Double Slice) is awful.
I wish they'd made Hunt Target better instead of making other feats worse by adding a reliance on Hunt Target.
(Also: multiclass ranges don't get MAP reduction. Aint that a pretty penny? And oh yeah, all those feats that the MC ranger can take that utilize Hunt Target? Once per day until the MC ranger hits 6th and takes the Targetted Hunter feat).
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Seems to me that twice takedown is designed to be a third attack, as opposed to double slice that is designed to be a first attack and as such it seems perfectly fine to me. It's definitely not as good as double slice though if that's the complaint.I wouldn't call it a straight downgrade.
For action intensive classes/abilities it is far better than double slice.
Being able to cast a spell and double attack, being able to move, do something (like a pally), and still double attack, and etc
That and even if your turn is Double Slice->Strike vs Twin Takedown->Strike->Strike, assuming flurry hunter's edge and maybe a longsword and shortsword setup, you are essentially trading one attack at full for an attack at -3 and an attack at -6. On the low accuracy side, that means Twin Takedown is better unless you needed a natural 13 to hit on the full bonus attack (it's equal at that point, and only worse if you needed a natural 14 on the full bonus attack). It might seem that there is a niche where Double Slice is better because of crits, so let's cherry-pick the best-case in that range for Double Slice: if Double Slice's shortsword attack hits on a 7 (so crits on a 17) and Twin Takedown's two attacks thus both only crit on a 20 due to hitting on 10 and 13. Even then, Twin Takedown is better on average (21/18 of the damage).
Other than in edge cases, it's pretty much a strict upgrade even if you had the actions available to Double Slice. And in the cases you mention, even more so. Especially good if you need to consistently command a companion too.
That and even if your turn is Double Slice->Strike vs Twin Takedown->Strike->Strike, assuming flurry hunter's edge and maybe a longsword and shortsword setup, you are essentially trading one attack at full for an attack at -3 and an attack at -6.
You're not wrong here, Mark.
On the low accuracy side, that means Twin Takedown is better unless you needed a natural 13 to hit on the full bonus attack (it's equal at that point, and only worse if you needed a natural 14 on the full bonus attack).
Natural-13 isn't...ouside the realm of possibility on a first attack. Certainly not common, but I wouldn't call it rare either.
It might seem that there is a niche where Double Slice is better because of crits, so let's cherry-pick the best-case in that range for Double Slice: if Double Slice's shortsword attack hits on a 7 (so crits on a 17) and Twin Takedown's two attacks thus both only crit on a 20 due to hitting on 10 and 13. Even then, Twin Takedown is better on average (21/18 of the damage).
Need to work this math out for myself, BBIAB.
(+1 weapons, +13 to hit, target AC 20)
DS+S with longsword/shortsword/shortsword with a -4 MAP is 27.6 damage average (spread of 15.18)
TT+S+S with longsword/shortsword/shortsword/shortsword with a -3 MAP is 30.6 damage average (spread 16.23)
Note: lower spread values are better, as it means that the bell curve is pointier (more results clustered near the average).
Of course, that's spending all three actions attacking. If we've only got 2 actions, then:
DS only: 23.4 (spread 13.4)
TT+S only: 25.2 (spread 14.5)
How about 1 action?
Strike only: 12.6 (spread 10.2)
TT only: 19.8 (spread 12.5)
This, is, of course, assuming the Flurry path. If we drop Flurry, the numbers change:
(for reference, double strike's numbers:)
DS+S: 27.6 (spread 15.18)
DS: 23.4 (spread 13.4)
S: 12.6 (spread 10.2)
TT+S+S: 27.6 (spread 16.0)
TT+S: 23.4 (spread 14.4)
TT: 19.2 (spread 12.6)
So even with the same average at greater than 1 action available means Double Strike comes out ahead (if only just) due to the narrower spread, as it roughly correlates to a lower probability of rolling an outlier value (and as the long-tail on the high ranges is less important than the glob of below-average results with measurable probabilities of occurring, narrow spread is good).
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I ran some other numbers (TT+S/DS vs AC 16 and AC 26). Twin Takedown succeeds against lower AC targets more than DS does, whereas against higher AC targets they're virtually dead-even (TT had flurry). Against very high AC targets (AC 30), Double Slice pulls ahead (5.9 / 6.5).
so let's cherry-pick the best-case for Double Slice
So, your cherry-pick was actually the better-case for Twin Takedown.
May I suggest using T-Roll? And have some prebuilt formulas for doing DPR checks.
Some things I've noticed:
1. Deadly and Fatal aren't worth the decrease in die-size (except against very VERY low AC targets where you're more likely to crit than anything, and even then the DPR increase is less than your DPR decrease in the average case).
2. One-handed weapons (1d8 main, 1d6 offhand) aren't damage-comparable to two-handed weapons (you can still only hit 3 times with 3 actions, baring certain features like Twin Takedown). Single strike with a d12 weapon: 16.3 (13.4). Two strikes? 25.2 (17.5), better than DS. Three strikes? 29.7 (16.2), a mere 1 DPR less than TT+S+S (with flurry).
3. Losing points on the to-hit is never worth it, I don't care what special ability or die size is (e.g. TT, DS: the -2 for not being agile hurts more than the die size reduction). Single strike at -2 with a d12 weapon: 12.6 (12.2), on par with a +0 attack with a long sword! That's two die sizes lower!
4. More of a side-point, but locking Ranger abilities behind Hunt Target means Multiclass Rangers can't effectively use some of their feats (max 1 enemy per day, meaning 1 fight)
5. The above means no one will ever Multiclass for Ranger, as they can't pick up Furry for the MAP reduction and need to spend 3 feats to actually use Twin Takedown or Hunted Shot: Ranger dedication, Basic Ranger Trick, and Targeted Hunter. The first one gives them nothing dedication to another class could not also give. The third one is useless without the second (because Hunt Target itself does duckall) and the second can't be used more than once a day without the third. That's a HUGE investment for a near-zero increase in flexibility or power.
So, your cherry-pick was actually the better-case for Twin Takedown.
As I mentioned, it is cherrypicking the best case possible for Double Slice in the high-accuracy band where Double Slice is getting extra crits and Twin Takedown is not. This still isn't better than the ultra-low accuracy band, but it was an add-on analysis in case anyone was curious whether there was a point where the extra crits turn it around for Double Slice (and there isn't).
As I mentioned, it is cherrypicking the best case possible for Double Slice in the high-accuracy band where Double Slice is getting extra crits and Twin Takedown is not. This still isn't better than the ultra-low accuracy band, but it was an add-on analysis in case anyone was curious whether there was a point where the extra crits turn it around for Double Slice (and there isn't).
Gotcha. Ambiguous wording.
(I still encourage everyone to do deep statistical analysis for themselves).
As I mentioned, it is cherrypicking the best case possible for Double Slice in the high-accuracy band where Double Slice is getting extra crits and Twin Takedown is not. This still isn't better than the ultra-low accuracy band, but it was an add-on analysis in case anyone was curious whether there was a point where the extra crits turn it around for Double Slice (and there isn't).Gotcha. Ambiguous wording.
(I still encourage everyone to do deep statistical analysis for themselves).
No worries. Statistical analysis is a good thing in my book. It isn't the whole story (player psychology is pretty huge and sometimes defies statistical analysis), but it can help!