Ancestry Feats, am I understanding this right?!


Ancestries & Backgrounds


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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

So, I'm just now diving into the playtest, and I'm having a hard time understanding a couple things.

Am I correct, that with the current rules, I can't essentially play what would have been a standard dwarf in previous editions because each separate racial ability that has been the norm, is now an ancestry feat?

Am I also correct in that a first level 'human' with a 'half elf' or 'half orc' ancestral feat, basically pays a feat tax and can't actually buy any of the racial traits at first level?

Maybe it's because it's late, maybe it's because I've been drinking, but I can't find anything saying otherwise, and if that's the case, I think I'm done with new Pathfinder before it's even begun.


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yep, you are correct. half-races are feat taxed and every ancestry, despite what devs said before the playtest came out, was nerfed to be unrecognizable.


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This is true RIGHT NOW but in a month? Who knows. If you want to make the playtest better PLAY IT and TAKE THE SURVEYS. They've already changed (and are going to change) 3-4 major things in the game. They are obviously listening and changing things to make a game that people want to play. Many people have already talked about Ancestry and how it was underwhelming, or just plain bad, compared to last edition. They will make changes.

If you were planning on PLAYTESTING don't run away at the first sign of trouble. That doesn't help anyone.

Scarab Sages

I think that races feels better overall. Most feats are more thematic than a lot of racial traits in PF1 (for my tastes at least). But underwhelming.

And the fact that you pick Ancestry Feats as you level up bother me.

I would prefer something like "pick 3 Ancestries Feats at level 1" and make it so that these feats auto scale like cantrip does.
I think it would be better.


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I don't see getting +5 speed and lowlight vision from a single feat (if only more ancestry feats were that good) as much of a burden, but to each their own.


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Devil of Roses wrote:

So, I'm just now diving into the playtest, and I'm having a hard time understanding a couple things.

Am I correct, that with the current rules, I can't essentially play what would have been a standard dwarf in previous editions because each separate racial ability that has been the norm, is now an ancestry feat?

Am I also correct in that a first level 'human' with a 'half elf' or 'half orc' ancestral feat, basically pays a feat tax and can't actually buy any of the racial traits at first level?

Maybe it's because it's late, maybe it's because I've been drinking, but I can't find anything saying otherwise, and if that's the case, I think I'm done with new Pathfinder before it's even begun.

1. Sort of. It's more complicated than before since a lot of the racial features would've been inapplicable to a lot of characters anyway.

2. No. They receive the Half-Elf or Half-Orc feat which allows them to select 2 of 4 minor benefits (take languages, Low-Light Vision doesn't actually work in PF2). This is easily comparable to the benefits of most Ancestry Feats other characters will be selecting.


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I think Paizo's 2 biggest blunders with ancestries has been:

1) Spreading them out so far apart that it just feels strange taking years of a character's life to learn aspects of their own culture they grew up in.

2) Calling them feats at all. Most everyone that has ever played most TTRPGs is mentally predisposed to think of a feat as a precious commodity. So having to "spend" a "feat" to learn something you should have learned simply by being a member of your culture leaves a bad taste in mouth. And it is only compounded by the fact that in the 1e you got most of these things for free.

But hey! The new v1.2 character sheet lets you gain an extra 1st level ancestry feat. Yay, I guess?


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
LordVanya wrote:

I think Paizo's 2 biggest blunders with ancestries has been:

1) Spreading them out so far apart that it just feels strange taking years of a character's life to learn aspects of their own culture they grew up in.

2) Calling them feats at all. Most everyone that has ever played most TTRPGs is mentally predisposed to think of a feat as a precious commodity. So having to "spend" a "feat" to learn something you should have learned simply by being a member of your culture leaves a bad taste in mouth. And it is only compounded by the fact that in the 1e you got most of these things for free.

But hey! The new v1.2 character sheet lets you gain an extra 1st level ancestry feat. Yay, I guess?

Agree with point 1.

For point 2, we should get used to this change, as "feat" now seems to mean "selectable character option".

For the character sheet, I wonder whether we might be getting a preview of a planned change? I do not recall seeing any mention of a second ancestry feat in the errata.


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I mean, in PF1 if you told me I could trade 90% of the things Dwarves get for a +2 bonus to strength, I would have been pretty pleased.


David knott 242 wrote:
LordVanya wrote:

I think Paizo's 2 biggest blunders with ancestries has been:

1) Spreading them out so far apart that it just feels strange taking years of a character's life to learn aspects of their own culture they grew up in.

2) Calling them feats at all. Most everyone that has ever played most TTRPGs is mentally predisposed to think of a feat as a precious commodity. So having to "spend" a "feat" to learn something you should have learned simply by being a member of your culture leaves a bad taste in mouth. And it is only compounded by the fact that in the 1e you got most of these things for free.

But hey! The new v1.2 character sheet lets you gain an extra 1st level ancestry feat. Yay, I guess?

Agree with point 1.

For point 2, we should get used to this change, as "feat" now seems to mean "selectable character option".

For the character sheet, I wonder whether we might be getting a preview of a planned change? I do not recall seeing any mention of a second ancestry feat in the errata.

I hope not. Only two feats will not be enough, specially if they're keeping the current heritage feats that will be necessary to distinguish one ancestry for another that everyone will want to pick over very situational weak bonuses.


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Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Two ancestry feats would be a definite improvement over just one, though.


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David knott 242 wrote:

For the character sheet, I wonder whether we might be getting a preview of a planned change? I do not recall seeing any mention of a second ancestry feat in the errata.

I think it's just giving a space for the potential extra Ancestry Feat from the Ancestral Paragon general feat. Although I think they had hinted in the past that they're strongly looking at giving an extra ancestry feat at first level, and possibly reworking ancestries in general.


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LordVanya wrote:
I think Paizo's 2 biggest blunders with ancestries has been:

For me, it's moving away from race [an actual set of abilities] to ancestry [just an access point for feats] and changing 1/2 races into feats [just an access point for MORE/DIFFERENT feats].


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graystone wrote:
LordVanya wrote:
I think Paizo's 2 biggest blunders with ancestries has been:
For me, it's moving away from race [an actual set of abilities] to ancestry [just an access point for feats] and changing 1/2 races into feats [just an access point for MORE/DIFFERENT feats].

Yeah, the Half Ancestries should be a free option, not a feat.

As for the use of feat in the nomenclature, I really think we shouldn't get used to it. I think Paizo should give us a really good and sensible reason to call them that.
Too many of the name changes seem arbitrary and/or counter-intuitive.
Ex- All snares are traps, not all traps are snares.


I do think that characters should get 2 ancestry feats at 1st level, and should get, say, a new ancestry feat every 2 thereafter. That would require each ancestry have a larger number of feats to choose from, but you know that a year or two after v2 releases, too few ancestry feats to choose from won't be a problem.


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I get elfier and elfier as I level up makes NO sense. I was raised in a culture, ancestry, race or whatever you want to call it. It is counter-intuitive that as I leave that culture and go out into the world I become a more recognizable member of that culture.


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LordVanya wrote:
As for the use of feat in the nomenclature, I really think we shouldn't get used to it.

Myself, I have no issue with racial feats. What I dislike is stripping everything off a race [the equivalent of many 'feats] and letting you buy them back painfully slow.

I'd rather see races be a set of base abilities and feats and you have the opportunity to switch out the default feats for other feats at 1st [like alternate racial trait] and then let PC's buy others as they level if they wish.


LordVanya wrote:
1) Spreading them out so far apart that it just feels strange taking years of a character's life to learn aspects of their own culture they grew up in.

I think this would be less of a problem if the starting ancestral traits were stronger. It's also, to your point, true that it doesn't make much sense to become more Dwarf or more Human as one levels up. But it does make sense as a player accessible alternative to Templates and Level Adjustment. It also allows ancestries like Tengu to eventually go from Gliding to Flying. (Or Half Dragon to gain flying, for that matter.) But it definitely needs some work as Tengu gaining real flight at, say, level 15 would still be much stronger than any of the current ancestral options.


Mulgar wrote:

I get elfier and elfier as I level up makes NO sense. I was raised in a culture, ancestry, race or whatever you want to call it. It is counter-intuitive that as I leave that culture and go out into the world I become a more recognizable member of that culture.

Update 1.4 will come with changes for all ancestries.

Logan Banner specifically said that players would not be given "more options" at level 1 but rather just "more" from their choice of ancestry.

I assume (and hope) that the core defining aspects of a race will now show at level 1 and ancestry feats will just be cherry on top from now on.

This might help alleviate part of the feeling that you start out as less than an elf than you are at level 15.

You are an elf, and you have some natural gifts because of it. You get those at level 1.
As you advance in levels, you also develop specific techniques which you had not previously mastered but were trained in whislt you were still young.

At least I hope that's how it plays out. :o


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I think the concept of getting "elfier" as you level is silly, but I do not mind the concept of getting access to traits and abilities that are only found in great elves of legend would be pretty neat. That's what I thought we were being sold, actually.

Any old dwarf is tough and has an affinity for stone and earth, but some rare dwarves have formed a deeper bond with the earth through their experience and can actually perceive the world around them through their feet.

Basically Aasimar feat tree from PF1e would be where I would start with Ancestries.


graystone wrote:
LordVanya wrote:
As for the use of feat in the nomenclature, I really think we shouldn't get used to it.

Myself, I have no issue with racial feats. What I dislike is stripping everything off a race [the equivalent of many 'feats] and letting you buy them back painfully slow.

I'd rather see races be a set of base abilities and feats and you have the opportunity to switch out the default feats for other feats at 1st [like alternate racial trait] and then let PC's buy others as they level if they wish.

ran·som

/ˈransəm/
verb
1. obtain the release of (a prisoner) by making a payment demanded.


dnoisette wrote:
Mulgar wrote:

I get elfier and elfier as I level up makes NO sense. I was raised in a culture, ancestry, race or whatever you want to call it. It is counter-intuitive that as I leave that culture and go out into the world I become a more recognizable member of that culture.

Update 1.4 will come with changes for all ancestries.

Logan Banner specifically said that players would not be given "more options" at level 1 but rather just "more" from their choice of ancestry.

I assume (and hope) that the core defining aspects of a race will now show at level 1 and ancestry feats will just be cherry on top from now on.

This might help alleviate part of the feeling that you start out as less than an elf than you are at level 15.

You are an elf, and you have some natural gifts because of it. You get those at level 1.
As you advance in levels, you also develop specific techniques which you had not previously mastered but were trained in whislt you were still young.

At least I hope that's how it plays out. :o

That may be a damn good start to rectifying the situation.

Personally, I think if they take the same approach with this as they did with Resonance and consumables (use is free, Resonance boosts effect) then it will be far more satisfying and not feel like we've been ripped off.


David knott 242 wrote:

For the character sheet, I wonder whether we might be getting a preview of a planned change? I do not recall seeing any mention of a second ancestry feat in the errata.

Maybe that where you list your Heritage?


WatersLethe wrote:

I think the concept of getting "elfier" as you level is silly, but I do not mind the concept of getting access to traits and abilities that are only found in great elves of legend would be pretty neat. That's what I thought we were being sold, actually.

Any old dwarf is tough and has an affinity for stone and earth, but some rare dwarves have formed a deeper bond with the earth through their experience and can actually perceive the world around them through their feet.

Basically Aasimar feat tree from PF1e would be where I would start with Ancestries.

Don't think of it as "getting elfier". Think of it as "remaining consistently elfy".

In PF1 (and SF), race makes a significant difference at low levels by virtue of the fact that, usually, you have more stuff written on your character sheet from your race than you do from your class (assuming you didn't choose human). As you level, race makes less and less of a difference until the elf fighter and the dwarf fighter are the same in all but flavor. Eventually, my bonuses rolls and my list of feats is so high, being an elf no longer factors in meaningfully.

PF2 gives you a baseline of difference, and makes sure that baseline of difference is maintained. The the elf figher maintains their ratio of "elfy" to "fightery" while the dwarf fighter maintains his ratio of "dwarfy" to "fightery". I like this, because I don't want my character's ancestry to become a fluff note down the line; it should stay a meaningful choice.

Is it meaningful enough at 1st level? Maybe, maybe not. I think it's enough, but I would not say no to have, say, 2 feats at 1st level instead, or its equivalent.


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That's how I see it. A 10th level Elven Fighter will be more powerful both in their essence and chosen job. You don't stop being yourself just because you have a focus. Nobody complain an 18th level Dragon is more Dragon-y than a 8th level Hatchling. I think people see these levels as "solely Fighter levels etc, which IMHO partly comes from training on 3.x multiclassing paradigm. But IMHO that isn't best approach, you are 10th level Elf character, and each level you have your Class and other training to focus on, but you're fundamentally a 10th Level Elf.


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Quandary wrote:
That's how I see it. A 10th level Elven Fighter will be more powerful both in their essence and chosen job. You don't stop being yourself just because you have a focus. Nobody complain an 18th level Dragon is more Dragon-y than a 8th level Hatchling. I think people see these levels as "solely Fighter levels etc, which IMHO partly comes from training on 3.x multiclassing paradigm. But IMHO that isn't best approach, you are 10th level Elf character, and each level you have your Class and other training to focus on, but you're fundamentally a 10th Level Elf.

The 18th level dragon is not "more dragon-y" than the 8th level one, it is just more powerful. It did not have to wait to get a breath weapon, resistance to its element, resistance to sleep, fangs and claws, etc.


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Quandary wrote:
Nobody complain an 18th level Dragon is more Dragon-y than a 8th level Hatchling.

There lore has dragon gain power because of aging: they gain HD from passing time and gain power and abilities from THAT. A fighter can't sit around and wait for power up's but have to work for levels so it's pretty much apples and oranges IMO.

A dragon gets HD from being more dragon-y not the other way around. :P

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

It reminds me of the old 3rd edition racial paragon classes being made core.

I like having bits and pieces of various ancestral choices I can choose because I don't like racial monoliths in my fantasy, but at the same time I do like being able to jump straight into the fantasy of a character.

PF1E's alternate racial features was the closest implementation to my ideal version.


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Big Lemon wrote:
WatersLethe wrote:

I think the concept of getting "elfier" as you level is silly, but I do not mind the concept of getting access to traits and abilities that are only found in great elves of legend would be pretty neat. That's what I thought we were being sold, actually.

Any old dwarf is tough and has an affinity for stone and earth, but some rare dwarves have formed a deeper bond with the earth through their experience and can actually perceive the world around them through their feet.

Basically Aasimar feat tree from PF1e would be where I would start with Ancestries.

Don't think of it as "getting elfier". Think of it as "remaining consistently elfy".

In PF1 (and SF), race makes a significant difference at low levels by virtue of the fact that, usually, you have more stuff written on your character sheet from your race than you do from your class (assuming you didn't choose human). As you level, race makes less and less of a difference until the elf fighter and the dwarf fighter are the same in all but flavor. Eventually, my bonuses rolls and my list of feats is so high, being an elf no longer factors in meaningfully.

PF2 gives you a baseline of difference, and makes sure that baseline of difference is maintained. The the elf figher maintains their ratio of "elfy" to "fightery" while the dwarf fighter maintains his ratio of "dwarfy" to "fightery". I like this, because I don't want my character's ancestry to become a fluff note down the line; it should stay a meaningful choice.

Is it meaningful enough at 1st level? Maybe, maybe not. I think it's enough, but I would not say no to have, say, 2 feats at 1st level instead, or its equivalent.

Being of Spanish ancestry doesn't make me a better programmer, training to be a programmer makes me a better programmer.

The way 1e set up races was perfectly in line with reality.

When you are inexperienced and untrained you rely on your natural talents and predispositions.

Training and experience should overshadow your ancestry.
And if you are smart, you train in order to take advantage of your natural talents instead of trying to match up 1:1 to someone else of similar training.


DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:
It reminds me of the old 3rd edition racial paragon classes being made core.

It's also an alternative to Level Adjustment that opens the door to some fun Ancestries (Minotaur, Centaur, etc).


The Once and Future Kai wrote:
DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:
It reminds me of the old 3rd edition racial paragon classes being made core.
It's also an alternative to Level Adjustment that opens the door to some fun Ancestries (Minotaur, Centaur, etc).

I'd have gone with half dragon myself. But sure.


Draco18s wrote:
The Once and Future Kai wrote:
DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:
It reminds me of the old 3rd edition racial paragon classes being made core.
It's also an alternative to Level Adjustment that opens the door to some fun Ancestries (Minotaur, Centaur, etc).
I'd have gone with half dragon myself. But sure.

1/2 medusa, harpy, cyclops... I can think of a lot of fun 1/2 races. ;)

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