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Proposed change: anyone can use dex to hit and damage with finesse weapons, but they take a -1 penalty to attack and damage rolls.
The decrease to attack rolls makes this an effective penalty at all levels. This gives reason to have high strength, while letting Dex based characters contribute a reasonable amount at all levels. This works out the same as the agile property in pf1, but with the new critical system the penalty is more punishing.
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Why not just make the classes do enough damage so that they don't need dex to damage to be effective? (its like what 1-6 damage per attack? since it pretty east to buff str to now probably more like 1-3 really) heck I'd just as soon give them a flat damage bonus over dex to damage. if they need it anyways.
Say make a fighter duelist build and have it have things to do that isn't just damaging is another way to go. parry build for example where a high dex equals a high ac and then they can parry and counter attack more.
Well the need some increase to damage, currently it doesn't scale well at all. At level 1 a rapier does 3.5 and a longsword 7.5 with a 16 in the stat, over double. At 20 that changes to 21 and 32, 50% more. I feel like the differences in average damage between Dex and str should be consistent between levels.
And it's not free to boost Str, if a character like a Bard needs to boost cha or int and their save stats theirs no room for str.
I would say put an alternative option in their somewhere if the gap is so great. I think however dex build doing about 25% less then a str build is probably ideal.
I didn't say free I said easier. Bard probably shouldn't be the most damaging melee character anyways.
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No likee the idea of dex to damage for all.
Strong disagree.
Also, it sounds to me like the item damage bonus is what you don't like. Deal with the root cause rather than suggest some bandaid fix.
Yeah I think a dex build should be possible but it should be a defensive build. Less damage for having a higher ac and mobility.
I will say that I believe it was Deadman did a pretty good job of convincing me when comparing finesse weapons with str powered weapons. The difference might be a little to high. but dex builds should be noticeably lower in damage then str.
Finessable weapons have lower damage dice, which is a very significant downside in this edition. There's no need for restrictions on dex-to-damage in the first place, since dex-based melee weapons are inferior to str-based ones.
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Personally I'd rather increase the finesse weapons die then give dex to damage. I'd prefer that compromise.
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I dont see the need for any compromise. Str based users are moving slower in their heavier armor, the are worse at ranged, they cant sneak very well, and they fail reflex saves more often.
Picking one over the other is a choice. If all you care about is melee DPR, make a strong guy. If you want to shoot far crap or sneak around, make a dex guy. Thats a meaningful choice.
The more people make crap the same, the worse the game gets. The more the stats lose their meaning.
I said this in another thread, but I would prefer the option via investment to finesse some weapons with higher damage dice than to have dex-to damage.
Like something like spear-dancing spiral letting me finesse a bo staff is going to add more damage in the long run than dex-to-damage.
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No way on higher damage die since with magic weapons that will make them the same as strength users damage wise with time but strength users will still be saddled with armor penalties and wont be able to hit the broad side of a barn at range. That is WORSE than dex to damage in how it screws up game balance over time.
Thats just a terrible idea.
Dex users do less damage in melee. Thats how it should be. They have other things they excel at that strength users do not.
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What if it's class specific? Monks can already get a d8 finesse attack with a single feat available at first level (wolf or tiger style) so somebody having a stance feat that lets them finesse a bigger weapon seems reasonable.
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Well, here's the thing, monks have to deal with handwraps of mighty fist which are in most ways worse than magic weapons and are invested. He also is very limited since he has to go into x stance (an action) and that closes him off from other stance benefits and manuevers of his class.
Giving that to other classes... Dunno, sounds hacky and open to abuse. Also, introduces the same imbalances. Similarly, if you turn around and put in some feat to let folks use str for aiming or sneaking or reflex saves or something, all you are doing is making classes the same and possibly opening the door to cheese.
I think folks would be better off embracing their weaknesses as well as their strengths. Recognize and appreciate difference because this feature envy just leads to a very homogenized game.
Dexterity to damage is finesies in 5e because most builds that use it are using weapons with lower damage dice and with the lack of static damage bonuses in 5e, a weapon's base damage is highly important, and for finesse, your options for non monks are blackjacks, daggers, scimitars, shortswords and rapiers and only the rapier does more than a d4 or d6. a single level in monk or the tavern brawler feat lets you use unarmed attacks as a light finesse weapon that deals 1d4 for non monks or for dexterity based characters who lack the wisdom to become monks.
Dexterity to damage is finesies in 5e because most builds that use it are using weapons with lower damage dice and with the lack of static damage bonuses in 5e, a weapon's base damage is highly important, and for finesse, your options for non monks are blackjacks, daggers, scimitars, shortswords and rapiers and only the rapier does more than a d4 or d6. a single level in monk or the tavern brawler feat lets you use unarmed attacks as a light finesse weapon that deals 1d4 for non monks or for dexterity based characters who lack the wisdom to become monks.Dex to damage is one of the most egregious design errors in 5th Ed (it already covers AC, Initiative, Ranged Attacks, one of the most common Saving Throws, Stealth...leave something for little old Str...), and with Feats, it is even worse; you know something is wrong when the most powerful Fighter build is a hand crossbow wielding lightly armoured guy.
Str, Int, and Cha are all easily dumped in 5th Ed, depending on your class, not good.
There is no Blackjack (sap) in 5th, though it's easy to add: 1d4 bludgeoning, finesse, light.
Houseruling out Dex to damage is one of the best things to happen to my 5th Ed action, oh, and grappling being a proficient Str check, none of this broken Athletics (Expertise) garbage - my 9th-level bard can pin Pit Fiends to the ground with impunity, yay!
the real issue with dex to melee damage isn't that it is dexterity based but rather that there is one finesse weapon that is outright better than any other melee one hander, talking about the rapier. if the rapier was just a cosmetic reskin of the shortsword, strength weapons would have the advantage of that d8.
the real issue with finesse weapons, is all of them deal 1d4 or 1d6 but there is one outlier that deals 1d8, which invalidates strength builds. just remove that one irksome outlier, and strength weapons get the advantage of a bigger damage die. because the problem with finesse builds is that they all use the rapier, because the rapier is that one outlier.
if you really need to, you could increase the damage of non-finesse weapons by an additional damage die in addition to removing the rapier.
plus, expertise can literally be gained with feats in 5e. there is literally an expertise feat for every skill you could learn.
plus, expertise can literally be gained with feats in 5e. there is literally an expertise feat for every skill you could learn.So, what does that have to do with grappling being tied to Athletics (potential Expertise) and how easily abused it is?
And these Feats, they are not in the PHB or any other 5th Ed books, would these be UA stuff?
they are UA stuff. there is also Prodigy in Xanathar's Guide which can be taken by any human character and any partially human character. considering that monsters at the higher challenge ratings have a higher strength cap than players. who cares if the bard takes expertise in Athletics to mitigate thier Poor Strength? a dragon or giant doesn't need expertise to have comparable Athletics to a level appropriate high strength expertise bard, except nobody builds strength bards for one reason, lack of medium or heavy armor on a class whose best melee weapon is the rapier.
remove the rapier and increase the size of strength weapons by one die size, and strength weapons will be fine. sure, a bard may be able to pin a balor, but not a dragon or giant. varied foes are important. in fact, try forcing that bard to roll some strength saving throws. there are many that will take out a weak PC fr several rounds.
balors are spellcasting monsters. not mega melee threats.
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You guys are not selling 5th to me at all.
You guys are not selling 5th to me at all.
the Advantage of 5th is How Hackable it is. it has fewer moving parts than Pathfinder, and s less minmaxy than Pathfinder 1e. just gives your characters the desired +1 weapons for thier build, both melee and ranged, and they should be fine. 5th has smaller bonuses making even a 16 important. lot alone a 12, yo can also train skills by spending a number of downtime weeks equal to 10 minus your intelligence moodier. or 5 to 15 weeks.
a bard may be able to pin a balor,Not possible, Balors are huge, but they can pin a Pit Fiend; at 9th level, easily, which is superbly lame.
Welcome to the 5th Ed Multiverse, where Bards and Rogues are the best wrestlers.
actually, human blooded barbarians with the prodigy feat and athletics as thier expertise choice are the best wrestlers before breaking out unearthed arcana, which gives expertise to anyone who takes a feat, a relevent +1 to the skill's key stat, and a utility ability appropriate the skill.
so a barbarian takes the Athlete Feat gains
+1 Strength
Expertise in Athletics
Doubled Carry Capacity that stacks with bear totem, allowing a 20 strength human barbarian to carry 1,200 pounds without being staggered.
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Dex to damage is the mean to have an house cat slaughter an adventurer.
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PF2 has dealt with this better, no tabby-cat, the Bobcat is Small, still deals quite a bit of damage, though.
Bobcats routinely hunt deer in some places, so this is appropriate.
And cats not killing people has more to do with temperament than capability. A cat that suddenly gained human intellect (or was possessed by a demon or something equally weird) could easily murder people by ripping their throats out from surprise.
I mean, large house cats are easily into the bobcat size range...bobcats average 15 lbs, and as mentioned they've been known to hunt deer. House Cats just have zero inclination to do anything of the kind.
A person I knew had this old mean snaggle toothed cat. I slept over and awoke to its paw on my throat and humbly begged for my life. I have no doubt that cat could have killed me right there.
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STR is not a dump stat on 5e at all. In fact, sans the medium armor master feat (and in 5e feats are tough to come by) dex builds will always be 1 less than heavy armor (assuming +5 dex which you could only get by level 8 tops. Before that the str based puts on full plate and has even more armor than you). With medium armor master you are on par with full plate mail. Also, high STR lets you move at full speed in heavier armors.
Free dex to damage with finesse weapons opens the door to dozens of fantasy character archetypes. It was one of the best decisions in 5e and fits with simplifying the system.
For Pathfinder, I was ecstatic when they started to include dex to damage options but still feel as a whole the system would’ve benefitted from a single generic feat that let you have dex to damage with finesse weapons.
One of my problems with PF2e is being shoe horned into weapon style based off class. Being a dex based paladin, fighter, rogue, ranger, any class should be a viable option. Dex to damage should just be a given with the finesse property.
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you still blow Str out of the water (Initiative, Saving Throw, Ranged Attacks, Finesse Weapon Attacks, Stealth). With feats (Crossbow Expert and Sharpshooter), it's over with.
Sharpshooter and crossbow don’t apply to melee. The debate is whether to allow DEX to melee damage. Regardless they are outclassed by polearm master and greatweapon master with the new errata.
Dex melee users don’t get access to any melee damage oriented feats. Unlike str which gets access to Great Weapon Master and Polearm Master. Both of which increase melee damage drastically.
Str is a saving throw. Arguably more important than dex since dex normally mitigates hp damage while str helps ability.
So for 5e:
Str= More damage, 1–2more AC (at lower levels chain shirt provides more than light armor), better carrying capacity, feats that improve damage/damage reduction (heavy armor master)
Dex= Better initiative, ranged utility, better skills, access to feats for ranged utility/ better skills
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As for Str to melee damage, that is pretty lame, too, as your rapier and shield wielding, light armoured Dexadin is superior to the longsword and shield wielding, plate wearing Paladin.
I’m not sure where you are factoring this. Prior to level 8, the STR paladin will have 2-3 higher AC. At level 8 he will have 1 extra AC permanently. If the DEX paladin at level 12 picks up medium armor master, now after over half his career, he is at the same AC. Meanwhile, the STR paladin could’ve selected Sentinel for more damage, Defensive Duelist for essentially massive AC (it acts as a metagame deterrent for GMs not to attack you in the first place, similar to parry riposte of PFS swashbuckler), or heavy armor master for 3/slashing,piercing,bludgeoning. This is also assuming the DEX paladin stayed single class as multiclassing would keep him behind for more levels.
So yes with one-handed weapons DEX is on par with STR in terms of attack and damage. However, as an overall combatant you won’t be as good. And sorry I meant no offense but I spell out all the feats for those who aren’t familiar with 5e.
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If we were polling for opinions I'd come out strongly on the "Nah" side of things.
Dex to Damage on Finesse Weapons/Attacks is too much, DEX is already doing too much work on its own adding to: to Hit with Ranged and Finesse Attacks, Armor Class, Skills, & Reflex Saves.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, doing this would only result in a dramatic and permanent shift in how PCs Stats are weighed for almost every Class.