Hello -
To begin, I am not sure how wands and metamagic feats interact. I assume that you cannot use metamagic with a wand normally, though I believe there is a feat or class feature that allows that (it escapes me exactly what). However, if the Magical Lineage trait and a +1 Metamagic Feat are combined, would it be possible to apply a metamagic feat to a spell cast from a wand if the effective level increase was +0? How would that even work? Thanks for reading.
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Metamagic Feats wrote: The modifications made by these feats only apply to spells cast directly by the feat user. A spellcaster can’t use a metamagic feat to alter a spell being cast from a wand, scroll, or other device.
You CAN craft a wand WITH the metamagic already effectively increasing the cost, but my question is how is calculated if the caster who is creating the wand has traits/feats such as magical lineage at the moment of the creation.
I think obviously that the caster level of the wand cant be lower that the needed to cast the spell.
The creator isn't casting the spells, the wand/item is. The wand doesn't have traits or feats or classes. It can't benefit from anything that isn't specified in the creation section except for things allowed by other abilities.
idk about that. 'extended light spell' for example is a 1st level spell (normally) if one is to make a wand with that spell to be cast ,counting level 1 spell crafting cost. it should be able to cast extended light.
if you have an ability to lower the metamegic level increase so it would still be a level 0 spell it would be an extended light spell of level 0. for crafting costs and dispelling etc.
it is already allowed to cast the spell at higher caster level and make it cost more. where does it say you can't cast it with metamagic when you make the item?
of course since it's a costume item gm approval is needed.
MetaRox wrote: You CAN craft a wand WITH the metamagic already effectively increasing the cost, but my question is how is calculated if the caster who is creating the wand has traits/feats such as magical lineage at the moment of the creation.
I think obviously that the caster level of the wand cant be lower that the needed to cast the spell.
Several questions in this thread.
#1) Can you apply meta-magic feats to spells cast from wands, scrolls, etc.
- No [Players Handbook page 113: Effects of Metamagic feats on a Spell] "A spellcaster can't use a metamagic feat to alter a spell being cast from a wand, scroll, or other magic device" Blahpers is correct.
#2) Can you craft wands that have the meta-magic feat applied.
-- Yes [Player's handbook pg 113 Magic Items and Metamagic spells] "with the right metamagic feat you can store a metamagic version of a spell in a scroll, potion, or wand. Level limits apply to the spell's higher spell slot"
#3) What is the minimum caster level of an wand, scroll, using a metamagic feat.
[Players Handbook page 208: Caster Level] "you can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough to cast the spell in question." ie the caster level must grant a spell slot of the total spell level after adding metagamic feats.
Extended light: caster level 1: Level 1 spell slot (0 base + 1 metamagic)
Extended Mage Armor: CL 3 (Level 2 spell slot (1 base + 1 metamagic)
#4) how does Magical Lineage Apply. This is not as clear cut. My interpretation would be based on the spell slot need by that particular caster.
Extended Light: Magical lineage caster level is still 1. Caster level <1 does not have 0 level spell slots.
Extended Mage Armor: CL 1 (Level 1 spell slot (1 base + 0 metamagic)
I think this is confirmed on pages 551 & 552 when it states the act of working on[insert object here] triggers the prepared spell.
zza ni wrote: idk about that. 'extended light spell' for example is a 1st level spell (normally) if one is to make a wand with that spell to be cast ,counting level 1 spell crafting cost. it should be able to cast extended light.
if you have an ability to lower the metamegic level increase so it would still be a level 0 spell it would be an extended light spell of level 0. for crafting costs and dispelling etc.
it is already allowed to cast the spell at higher caster level and make it cost more. where does it say you can't cast it with metamagic when you make the item?
of course since it's a costume item gm approval is needed.
You have that trait. Your character. The item you are creating does not have that trait. It doesn't have traits at all. It doesn't have feats either. You modify the spells that the item is casting if you add a metamagic feat to it, not you are casting. And you aren't adding a feat to the item, you are modifying the spell it is casting.
with metamagic you take the worse option, which is no level lowering for item crafting.
Meirril wrote: zza ni wrote: idk about that. 'extended light spell' for example is a 1st level spell (normally) if one is to make a wand with that spell to be cast ,counting level 1 spell crafting cost. it should be able to cast extended light.
if you have an ability to lower the metamegic level increase so it would still be a level 0 spell it would be an extended light spell of level 0. for crafting costs and dispelling etc.
it is already allowed to cast the spell at higher caster level and make it cost more. where does it say you can't cast it with metamagic when you make the item?
of course since it's a costume item gm approval is needed.
You have that trait. Your character. The item you are creating does not have that trait. It doesn't have traits at all. It doesn't have feats either. You modify the spells that the item is casting if you add a metamagic feat to it, not you are casting. And you aren't adding a feat to the item, you are modifying the spell it is casting. look at it this way. a bard using a spell that for bards is 2nd level but for wizrds is 3rd level (many such spells exist). make a wand out of that spell. for crafting and all thigns that spell is cast at his level (for dispelling etc) even if some1 else uses that wand beause the spell is from his spell list. (was a thing with summoners and their lower level of spells) same here for that spellcaster an extanded specific spell is one lower then for anyone else.(anyone else casting extanded light is 1st level spell for him is 0) so making that wand take that into acount. you insist that the feat is only for the cser. i agree, but that doesn't change the fact that for making the item he need to acst that spell as he cast it . and the cost is set for his spellcasting ability. not the 'general' wand made by anyone else. all in all it ill go the same way for a speciic metamagic cast with lowered cost and a bard casing a spell with lowered lvel for bards list.
zza ni wrote:
look at it this way. a bard using a spell that for bards is 2nd level but for wizrds is 3rd level (many such spells exist). make a wand out of that spell. for crafting and all thigns that spell is cast at his level (for dispelling etc) even if some1 else uses that wand beause the spell is from his spell list. (was a thing with summoners and their lower level of spells) same here for that spellcaster an extanded specific spell is one lower then for anyone else.(anyone else casting extanded light is 1st level spell for him is 0) so making that wand take that into acount. you insist that the feat is only for the cser. i agree, but that doesn't change the fact that for making the item he need to acst that spell as he cast it . and the cost is set for his spellcasting ability. not the 'general' wand made by anyone else. all in all it ill go the same way for a speciic metamagic cast with lowered cost and a bard casing a spell with lowered lvel for bards list.
Determining the spell level is described in the Create Wand Feat. Adding additional specifics about the caster isn't. If it was, then each wand would note what the Int/Wis/Cha of the creator was because when the creator casts the spell the DC is based on spell level + stat. Items get no such bonus from their creator's abilities. So why should you apply Traits and Feats that the rules don't support if you aren't going to apply stats the rules don't support?
For that matter, you can make Wands do things you can't do. You can create magic items that have a higher CL than you have. So even as a 5th level caster with craft wand you can make a CL 9 Wand of Magic Missile if you know Magic Missile. Why? Because its allowed by the rules, not because of your casting ability. The only reason you need to know Magic Missile is because you're creating a spell completion item and the rules say you need to. If it was some other class of item it you could skip that by raising the DC by 5.
Meirril wrote: zza ni wrote:
For that matter, you can make Wands do things you can't do. You can create magic items that have a higher CL than you have. So even as a 5th level caster with craft wand you can make a CL 9 Wand of Magic Missile if you know Magic Missile. Why? Because its allowed by the rules, not because of your casting ability. The only reason you need to know Magic Missile is because you're creating a spell completion item and the rules say you need to. If it was some other class of item it you could skip that by raising the DC by 5. I disagree. There is nothing I see in the rules that allow you to set the caster level of any item with a caster level higher than your own. Players Handbook page 549 [2nd paragraph] "two primary factors are the caster level of the creator and the level of the spell put into the item. A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the spell" Since is spells out that you can set a caster level lower, but does not say you can set it higher than your own the implication is that you cannot set the caster level higher than your own.
It does say that your can ignore prerequisites (requirements) like caster level by increasing the DC of the spellcraft check, but with rare exception (and magic arms and armor), caster level is not a prerequisite. Instead it is an inherent property of the item when created, and cannot exceed your own caster level.
I really, really hate this whole bit about creating magic items that are more powerful than yourself, but its allowed.
Take a look at the sidebar under Magic Item Creation. That messy FAQ gets dragged out every time this topic comes up.
Or you could read through this entire thread I posted about this subject. I basically had to answer my own question, and I was not happy with the answer.
So while I really dislike that you can make things far above your CL, the apparent answer is not only is it allowed, its intended.
Meirril wrote: I really, really hate this whole bit about creating magic items that are more powerful than yourself, but its allowed.
Take a look at the sidebar under Magic Item Creation. That messy FAQ gets dragged out every time this topic comes up.
Or you could read through this entire thread I posted about this subject. I basically had to answer my own question, and I was not happy with the answer.
So while I really dislike that you can make things far above your CL, the apparent answer is not only is it allowed, its intended.
For the record, I have read both of those at length.
There a couple of points we agree on. The FAQ and RAW indicate that the caster level in the description of items is not actually a requirement. This is merely a description, does not trigger the +5 spellcraft check, etc. This is the only section that the FAQ actually addresses, and is complete with only the first sentence: "Though the listed Caster Level for a pearl of power is 17th, that caster level is not part of the Requirements listing for that item." The rest is RAI example of what would reasonably be the requirement.
There are specific parts that I don't interpret the same way as you.
#1) this part from the FAQ: "He can set the caster level to whatever he wants (assuming he can meet the crafting DC), though the pearl’s caster level has no effect on its powers (other than its ability to resist dispel magic)."
This clearly states that you set the caster level when crafting the item, and is in harmony with the RAW even before the FAQ.
The caster level in wonderous item descriptions is a description of what it usually is when found bought etc. For wonderous items, weapons, armor, rings, caster level of the item is usually not important as it does not factor into cost, time to make, or effectiveness. The only two areas impacted by caster level for these types of items are: how it interacts with dispel magic, and the difficulty of the spellcraft check to craft it.
For spell trigger, use activated or spell completion items (wands, potions, staves, scroll), the caster level is critical and is set by the crafter when making the item. Changing the caster level drastically affects the cost and effectiveness. Wand: 375 * spell level * caster level. Changes range, damage dealt , duration, etc. Rules as written clearly state you can set this below your own caster level.
#2) You could read the FAQ, and apply this phrase: "He can set the caster level to whatever he wants", very literally and say you can set it to anything you want even above your own caster level for any item you make anywhere. I would think that level of change would be errata not FAQ, and the FAQ did not indicate that future errata would fix this.
#3) This question from your other thread: "What CL is the belt? CL 16 based on item description? CL 3 because it was created by a CL 3 creator? Do we seriously need to keep track of this now, or can creators make something that far exceeds their ability?"
Is properly answered as: "Yes, the caster level is set when the item is crafted, and you do need to track it."
I wasn't originally going to discuss magic arms/armor/rings/wonderous items in this thread as it was asking about wands.
Even re-reading the FAQ and previous posts, I still come to the same conclusions about each of the questions as before. At this point, I don't think you and I will ever agree on this. So.... Goodluck and Happy adventuring.
Meirril wrote: I really, really hate this whole bit about creating magic items that are more powerful than yourself, but its allowed.
Take a look at the sidebar under Magic Item Creation. That messy FAQ gets dragged out every time this topic comes up.
Or you could read through this entire thread I posted about this subject. I basically had to answer my own question, and I was not happy with the answer.
So while I really dislike that you can make things far above your CL, the apparent answer is not only is it allowed, its intended.
Sorry Edit button not working. Disregard previous post:
For the record, I have read both of those at length.
There a couple of points we agree on:
For wonderous items, weapons, armor, rings, caster level of the item is usually not important as it does not factor into cost, time to make, or effectiveness. The only two areas impacted by caster level for these types of items are: how it interacts with dispel magic, and the difficulty of the spellcraft check to craft it.
The FAQ and RAW indicate that the caster level in the description of items is not actually a requirement. This is merely a description, does not trigger the +5 spellcraft check, etc. This is the only section that the FAQ actually addresses, and is complete with only the first sentence: "Though the listed Caster Level for a pearl of power is 17th, that caster level is not part of the Requirements listing for that item." The rest is RAI example of what would reasonably be the requirement.
There are specific parts that I don't interpret the same way as you.
#1) this part from the FAQ: "He can set the caster level to whatever he wants (assuming he can meet the crafting DC), though the pearl’s caster level has no effect on its powers (other than its ability to resist dispel magic)."
This suggests that you set the caster level when crafting the item per the FAQ. However page 460 of the players handbook states that the caster level is set by the item. Since the FAQ is limited to whether the caster level is a prereq the answer should be limited to that as well. Meaning the caster level is not required, but factors into the DC to make the item.
For spell trigger, use activated or spell completion items (wands, potions, staves, scroll), the caster level is critical and is set by the crafter when making the item. Changing the caster level drastically affects the cost and effectiveness. Wand: 375 * spell level * caster level. Changes range, damage dealt , duration, etc. Rules as written clearly state you can set this below your own caster level, but not above [pg 460]
#2) You could read the FAQ, and apply this phrase: "He can set the caster level to whatever he wants", very literally and say you can set it to anything you want even above your own caster level for any item you make anywhere. I would think that level of change would be errata not FAQ, and the FAQ did not indicate that future errata would fix this.
#3) This question from your other thread: "What CL is the belt? CL 16 based on item description? CL 3 because it was created by a CL 3 creator? Do we seriously need to keep track of this now, or can creators make something that far exceeds their ability?"
Is properly answered as two parts:
Arms/Armor/Wonderous: "No the caster level is set by the item", but may be created by someone of lower level if they can meet the spellcraft check.
Wand/Scrolls/potions: "Yes, the caster level is set by the creator when crafting"
I wasn't originally going to discuss magic arms/armor/rings/wonderous items in this thread as it was asking about wands, and operates under different rules.
Even re-reading the FAQ and previous posts, I still come to the same conclusions about each of the questions as before. At this point, I don't think you and I will ever agree on this. So.... Goodluck and Happy adventuring.
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