I've done some searching in this forum and I've seen a post from 2011. Something that was not addressed is bothering me quite a bit.
http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9n8m
dated August 10th, 2010 says you can create a pearl of power (CL 17 item) as long as you can cast spells of the appropriate level.
However, this conflicts directly with the definition of Caster Level presented in the Advanced Player's Guide under Magic Item Descriptions.
"Caster Level (CL): An item's caster level indicates its relative power. It also determines the item's saving throw bonus, as well as range or other level-dependent aspects of the item's powers (if variable). It also determines the level that must be contended with should the item come under the effect of a dispel magic spell or similar situation.
The creator's caster level must be as high as the item's caster level (and additional requirements may effectively put a higher minimum on the creator's level)." (copied from PRD, no errata for this)
Released same year as the FAQ answer. Appears to be printed in December? Which one takes precedence?
I'm interested because the player wants to create meta magic rods as a CL 10 caster. If he was allowed to create the lesser rods, what would the CL be? Would he inflict a Prerequisite penalty because he doesn't meet the CL? If it is allowed, then wouldn't the CL remain 17 and the end DC for making a lesser meta magic rod of maximize only be a DC 22?
Your player can bypass the caster level requirement by taking a +5 penalty to their Spellcraft DC when crafting the item.
Crafting and Bypassing Requirements: What crafting requirements can you bypass by adding +5 to the DC of your Spellcraft check?
As presented on page 549 of the Core Rulebook, there are no limitations other than (1) you have to have the item creation feat, and (2) you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites. So racial requirements, specific spell requirements, math requirements (such as "caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus"), and so on, are all subject to the +5 DC rule.
posted February 2013
The FAQ answer is ambiguous. It definitely applies when making magic weapons and armor, because that is the math requirements part of it (Caster level at least three times the enhancement bonus). This is definitely a requirement for that sort of item.
However, for something like a meta magic rod where the only requirements are the meta magic feat, and Create Rod, can you skip CL on that sort of item by adding +5 to the DC? Caster Level is its own field. Not only that, but it sets the DC to create the item in the first place. So what would the DC of the item even be? Still 17 +5? Is there an additional 'requirement' added if you can't cast the spell levels that would be affected by the rod? Would the DC be based on what the rod could affect?
If you are allowed to ignore parts of the item description that aren't in the Requirements field, can I add +5 to the DC to ignore the cost of the item? Procedurally, this is the same thing as ignoring the Caster Level.
I'm going to make the counter argument that the Caster Level definition in the APG still applies, and it doesn't conflict with the above FAQ answer because the FAQ answer only applies to the bits in the item description listed in the Requirements section, not to the other elements of the item such as CL, Name, Description or Cost.
I'm interested if anyone can prove me wrong on this. I don't think a one line copy paste answer is going to settle this.
Bumping this after Thanksgiving weekend in the hopes someone can provide some solid evidence that Caster Level can or can't be changed on a whim if you are making an item that doesn't call for a spell to be used.
Well, more specifically if Piazo has either supported or retracted this FAQ:
"Pearl of Power: What is the caster level required to create this item?
Though the listed Caster Level for a pearl of power is 17th, that caster level is not part of the Requirements listing for that item. Therefore, the only caster level requirement for a pearl of power is the character has to be able to cast spells of the desired level.
However, it makes sense that the minimum caster level of the pearl is the minimum caster level necessary to cast spells of that level--it would be strange for a 2nd-level pearl to be CL 1st.
For example, a 3rd-level wizard with Craft Wondrous Item can create a 1st-level pearl, with a minimum caster level of 1. He can set the caster level to whatever he wants (assuming he can meet the crafting DC), though the pearl's caster level has no effect on its powers (other than its ability to resist dispel magic). If he wants to make a 2nd-level pearl, the caster level has to be at least 3, as wizards can't cast 2nd-level spells until they reach character level 3. He can even try to make a 3rd-level pearl, though the minimum caster level is 5, and he adds +5 to the DC because he doesn't meet the "able to cast 3rd-level spells" requirement."
source: http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9n8m
Caster level is only a requirement for creating an item if it's listed in the actual requirements field. The caster level listed in the item description is what a random one found in the dungeon would be. If you're making an items you can set the caster level down to anything able to cast the requisite spells. Or you can choose to set it higher if you want to make the item have better saves or be harder to dispel, up to your caster level.
So a 5th level wizard with Craft Wondrous Item can make a pearl of power 1 at any caster level from 1 to 5. He could make a pearl of power 2 with nay caster level from 3 to 5. If he finds one in a treasure hoard it will be caster level 17.
And yes, it means the craft DC will be lower if he chooses to have a low CL. Craft DCs aren't meant to be difficult.
ryric wrote: Caster level is only a requirement for creating an item if it's listed in the actual requirements field. The caster level listed in the item description is what a random one found in the dungeon would be. If you're making an items you can set the caster level down to anything able to cast the requisite spells. Or you can choose to set it higher if you want to make the item have better saves or be harder to dispel, up to your caster level.
So a 5th level wizard with Craft Wondrous Item can make a pearl of power 1 at any caster level from 1 to 5. He could make a pearl of power 2 with nay caster level from 3 to 5. If he finds one in a treasure hoard it will be caster level 17.
And yes, it means the craft DC will be lower if he chooses to have a low CL. Craft DCs aren't meant to be difficult.
You are not limited to your own caster level. You can make an item with a caster level higher than that. Evidence is found in the same FAQ Meirril posted:
Quote: For example, a 3rd-level wizard with Craft Wondrous Item can create a 1st-level pearl, with a minimum caster level of 1. He can set the caster level to whatever he wants (assuming he can meet the crafting DC), though the pearl's caster level has no effect on its powers (other than its ability to resist dispel magic). If he wants to make a 2nd-level pearl, the caster level has to be at least 3, as wizards can't cast 2nd-level spells until they reach character level 3. He can even try to make a 3rd-level pearl, though the minimum caster level is 5, and he adds +5 to the DC because he doesn't meet the "able to cast 3rd-level spells" requirement." Potions, scrolls, and wands (and presumably staves as well) do have that limitation however.
Quote: Caster Level (CL): The next item in a notational entry gives the caster level of the item, indicating its relative power. The caster level determines the item's saving throw bonus, as well as range or other level-dependent aspects of the powers of the item (if variable). It also determines the level that must be contended with should the item come under the effect of a dispel magic spell or similar situation.
For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell but not higher than her own caster level. For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the item itself.
If I am understanding it correctly, the question isn't about items that require a specific caster level and bypassing that requirement, it's about making an item that doesn't need a specific CL, then setting its CL to a level higher than wizard's level by raising Spellcraft's DC by 5.
Kelenius wrote: If I am understanding it correctly, the question isn't about items that require a specific caster level and bypassing that requirement, it's about making an item that doesn't need a specific CL, then setting its CL to a level higher than wizard's level by raising Spellcraft's DC by 5. If the item doesn't need a specific caster level, than caster level is not a prerequisite, and so there is no need to add +5 to the DC to bypass it. The items higher caster level is already factored into the base DC to make the item.
My actual question is what takes precedence: The FAQ answer on Pearl of Power or the definition of Caster Level given in APG?
If the answer in APG has precedence you need to be 17th level to make any metamagic rod.
If the Pearl of Power answer takes precedence then...you can make any magic item as soon as you have the appropriate item creation feet? With exceptions for potions, scrolls and wands. And that begs the question, what is the DC if the creator lowers the DC from 17 to 1? DC 22 or DC 6? Do you use the 'sliding' CL the creator chooses or the one the item is presented with in its listing as a base for determine the creation DC?
Guess I'm answering my own question, and I do not like the results?
http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fn#v5748eaic9n9x
FAQ on APG specifically says that the description on Caster Level is wrong and it isn't a prerequisite. I still have 3 objections to this. First, the FAQ answer is published 2 months before APG is officially published. While its obvious that the FAQ is written after the book, it begs the question why isn't it fixed if it is wrong before being published?
Second objection: No mention of this in the Errata. Whoever takes care of Errata at Paizo and who writes FAQ answers obviously aren't the same person because this wasn't handled in a consistent manner.
Third objection: It opens up a can of worms called "what is the CL of this item?" if you use the FAQ answer for Pearl of Power and apply it to every item.
Example: Belt of Physical Perfection: CL 16. Prerequisite: Cat's Grace, Bull's Strength, Bear's Endurance, Craft Wondrous Items.
Our Example Creator: 3rd Wizard with a 20 Int and Craft Wonderous Items, with assistance from a 3rd level Cleric with no crafting skills but has spellcraft ranked.
Arguably certain builds of a Wizard could cover all 3 spells for creation, but to make it more interesting a second party member assists with item creation. The 3rd level Wizard has a Spellcraft of 11 (3 ranks + 3 class bonus + 5 int bonus). If the CL of the Belt of Physical Perfection is CL 16 then its DC is 21, because there are no missing prerequisites. Our example Wizard can create this belt at 3rd level and only has to take 10 to automatically succeed.
What CL is the belt? CL 16 based on item description? CL 3 because it was created by a CL 3 creator? Do we seriously need to keep track of this now, or can creators make something that far exceeds their ability?
Normally I don't plot things with a high CL into a champagne before the characters get close to the CL. The modules do this as well. I've never seen something like a 2 stat belt/headband before the characters are estimated to be 12th level. 3 stat items from modules have been useless affairs of +2 at found in the last chapter. And here we demonstrate a 3rd level caster should be able to make them if CL isn't a barrier.
Then you get into messy situations like my original concern, which is creating Metamagic Rods. Assuming you have some ability like the Arcanist's Exploit that lets you pick a metamagic feat for the day a single caster can create any metamagic rod as soon as they can qualify for the feat to create rods. As a CL 9 caster you can have 9 ranks in Spellcraft, it should be a class skill, so you'd need an int bonus of +1 to get yourself to the minimum skill of 13 to take 10 and create any metamagic rod you have the feat for with no chance of failure. If you get another +5 in bonuses from a combination of stat bonus, trait, feats and items you can ignore the feat and create any metamagic rod with no chance of failure. This includes the Greater metamagic rods because the ability to cast 7-9th level spells isn't included in the Requisites.
So, does anyone else think this is a problem?
Creating magic items isn't supposed to be hard or fraught with failure. The real limitation is money and time. Yes your example 3rd level wizard is absolutely capable of making a belt of physical perfection +6, if he has 72000 gp and 144 days.
In fact, this scenario is likely what's happening if your PCs commission a custom item in a city.
The reason those items show up late in APs is because of their cost, not their caster level.
Meirril wrote: So, does anyone else think this is a problem? No. Item caster level isn't the limiting factor on item creation--money and time are. 7th-level wizards don't make rings of three wishes because they can't afford to.
Just gonna necro this thread real quick to put a TL;DR for anyone finding this page years after the previous post as the result of a Google search (like I did).
FAQ Answer
Creating Items and Caster Level: The APG magic items chapter says (on page 282), "The creator's caster level must be as high as the item's caster level." This contradicts the Core Rulebook. Which is correct?
That line in the APG is an error. An item's caster level is not a prerequisite for item creation unless it is specifically mentioned in an item's Requirements line (for example, an amulet of natural armor).
It’s a copy paste error from 3.5 where caster level was basically a prerequisite. But also, you didn’t pay for the item in gold cost, but with your own xp. So a certain level being required made more sense in 3.5.
I use the DM mandate and only allow +5 to Crafting DCs for lack of spells.
Maintaining Caster Level, class, race, feats, etc. as necessary.
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