
Douglas Muir 406 |
A rival party has been observing the PCs and has become familiar with all their tactics. The rival party will now attack, and will deploy countertactics to match the PCs' strengths. Both PCs and rivals are 8th level, but the rivals include a 9th level caster who has been vigorously abusing Lesser Planar Binding, so the rivals have access to a lot of outsiders.
The goal here is not to kill the PCs but to present them with some interesting challenges and force them to switch up their tactics. (Though if they play stupid, sure, I'm perfectly okay with killing them.) The PCs are aware of the rival party and have been dismissive of them, even when it became obvious that the rivals were conjuring up outsiders to strengthen themselves. So I'm looking for clever plays here, ideally ones that involve those outsiders.
PC Bard -- The bard is a vanilla bard and a buff monkey. I'm thinking a couple of invisible imps with tanglefoot bags that have Silence cast on them. Yes, that's a jerk move that will completely shut down the bard for several rounds. I'm okay with that.
PC Wizard -- The wizard is your classic squishy coward. He casts Mage Armor and Fly in advance then hangs back throwing Black Tentacles and Fireballs. I'm thinking some sort of flying grappler here? Ideas welcome.
PC Monk -- The monk is an unchained grappling specialist. (Yes those exist. Just because they'll never be as good as a tetori monk doesn't mean they can't be very good.) Also he has the Snake Style feat chain that basically lets him dodge one attack / round. The monk is problematic because he can run away from anything he can't fight. So, hitting him with a bunch of shadows (intangible, can't be grappled, drain Str) seems promising but he'll just burn a ki point for extra movement and zip off. Also his AC is pretty darn high. Maybe something that attacks his Will save, which is weak for unchained monks?
PC Cleric -- This guy's just a solid all-rounder, good spell selection, good AC and hp, decent in combat. Some sort of small stealthy creature to snitch his holy symbol? Players tend to react badly to that, I have found. Maybe just a straight-up combat brute, then.
PC Summoner -- For in-game reasons I allowed the player to munchkin the hell out of this charcter, and he did. He's a synthesist summoner with pounce, rake, and the Dimensional Dervish feat line. So he poofs into combat, does his attacks, and then poofs away. Obnoxious, and it's even worse if he has time to buff. Something that blocks or redirects his teleporting is called for. Or something with the same ability that can keep up? Barbed devils can teleport but can't poof and hit in the same round. Not sure how to proceed here.
Suggestions very welcome! Bonus points if you can come up with stuff that allows the PCs to be captured instead of killed, because that's always fun.
Doug M.

ShroudedInLight |

Hey Doug, lets see what we can come up with. First off:
1: Weaknesses: Fort saves seem like they are king against your party, the Bard, Wizard, and Summoner all will suffer quite heavily against them. Clerics have poor reflex saves, so thats another aspect you can target if you wanna lock them down. The Monk will be tricky, but I'll get to him in a moment. Hunt down some 4th and 5th level spells that target those saves and go to town.
As you said, the Wizard is a good grapple target as they have 1/2 BAB. However, other combat maneuvers can help. Swiping their component pouch will probably prevent them from doing most anything during combat as most of their spells have material components. Starting the fight (or even pre-empting it) with an invisible pickpocket who swipes the pouch would work. Otherwise, a Pilfering Hand spell will work wonders.
If we want to continue to pickpocket setting up the party, they could initiate the fight by slipping a rock with the Silence spell cast upon it into the Bard's pocket. An extended silence spell along with the rock being kept in the pickpocket's extra-dimensional storage would allow the thief to slip close without alerting the party.
The Monk running isn't an issue, since if he runs away then the party is doomed. If you really wanna target him the 9th level caster could be trained in UMD and try to zap him with a Scroll of Force Cage. Otherwise triggering the fight in a small area could allow you to have something block off the exit. A cavern or building can have its exit closed off with a Wall spell.
Trip the cleric, a trip specialist can keep him flat and stab him whenever he tries to get up or cast a spell. Clerics lack the arcane defenses against this sort of tactic.
2: Gimmicks: Fogcutting Lenses on the whole enemy party followed by a fog cloud. Having concealment or total concealment verses the party is huge, especially when the enemy party can freely maneuver about the cloud without any trouble.
Traps. Even the most basic traps can screw with a fight, the enemy party can lay out the ground work with simple things like a silent image over a hand dug pit. The party lacks a rogue, so a trap-smith could really screw with them especially if they can't see the traps through the fog. Even just filling the area with bear-traps would work.
Undead are another option that can be used in addition to summoned help, especially since the Undead could be disguised as the enemy party members. Sure, they'll have a hard time hitting in the fog but the party will never be sure who they just cut down.
3: Capture: Remember that any amount of non-lethal damage dealt to a character causes them to fall unconscious before they begin to bleed out (as long as you don't hit them too hard). A quick merciful fireball can allow you to capture the whole party. Of course, the cleric is a bit of an issue there since they can Channel Energy to heal up everyone. Thus we need some other ideas.
One of which is the Shackle spell, its a touch spell with a relfex save that auto-locks a pair of shackles or fetters on a target. Since the cleric has a poor reflex save, hitting them with this first will trap both of their hands and prevent them from channeling energy. You can also do this to pin down the Wizard with a Shackle spell enhanced with the Reach meta-magic. No hands on the Wizard means they are boned.
4: Location: As I said earlier, location is key. Its what will determine the encoutner's true difficulty. In the middle of the open will allow the PCs to take advantage of their full mobility and spells. Meanwhile, a cramped cavern, sewer, or building will force them into a worse position. The Wizard will not be able to fly, the monk can be prevented from fleeing, AoE spells will be too dangerous to cast without harming allies, and if you can find a location with pillars (or cover created from Stone Shaping rocks) then you can stop the Summoner from pouncing because they will not have a charge lane.
5: Escape: If the enemy party is this well prepared, have them be even better prepared in that they have an escape plan if things do go wrong. Pass out potions of Gaseous form, invisibility, and expeditious retreat. Keep a wall of stone in reserve to be cast to divide the room, then use Gaseous form to slip through the gap between the wall of stone and the ceiling.

Douglas Muir 406 |
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1: Weaknesses: Fort saves seem like they are king against your party, the Bard, Wizard, and Summoner all will suffer quite heavily against them.
Okay, so looking for some good Fort Save spells that are either AoE or touch attacks. Ideally they'll slap on debilitating conditions and debuffs, because in the last few sessions the PCs have really become buff monkeys.
Clerics have poor reflex saves, so thats another aspect you can target if you wanna lock them down.
The problem there is that most of the Reflex save spells are damage-inflicters like Fireball. A cleric will just heal himself right back up, so that's a thing.
As you said, the Wizard is a good grapple target as they have 1/2 BAB. However, other combat maneuvers can help. Swiping their component pouch will probably prevent them from doing most anything during combat as most of their spells have material components. Starting the fight (or even pre-empting it) with an invisible pickpocket who swipes the pouch would work. Otherwise, a Pilfering Hand spell will work wonders.
That's not out of the question, but IME players hate this. Hate hate hate it. I'll do it if I can't come up with anything better, okay -- but even then, I'd at least let them know there was an invisible thief around.
These are good, though -- the sorts of things I'm looking for. Will respond more in a little bit.
Doug M.

Erpa |

Terrain, terrain, terrain.
You build the scenario to limit the PCs actions; limited flight, limited space for running, rough terrain, rivals on higher ground, etc.
Then, you mess with terrain. Walls, baby, walls. Darkness area here, cloudkill over there, etc.Make it a real playground of differing obstacles.
Channel energy is a burst, so it can be blocked by a solid wall, too.

Douglas Muir 406 |
If we want to continue to pickpocket setting up the party, they could initiate the fight by slipping a rock with the Silence spell cast upon it into the Bard's pocket.
I'm more okay with something like this. As I said, Silence cast on a Tanglefoot bag is a nasty but effective tactic.
The Monk running isn't an issue, since if he runs away then the party is doomed. If you really wanna target him the 9th level caster could be trained in UMD and try to zap him with a Scroll of Force Cage. Otherwise triggering the fight in a small area could allow you to have something block off the exit. A cavern or building can have its exit closed off with a Wall spell.
It's not so much running away as running around, and picking his fights. With a ki point, he can run so fast that he basically just moves around the battlefield at will. (Same problem with the Synthesist Summoner.) That said, wall spells are an interesting idea...
Trip the cleric, a trip specialist can keep him flat and stab him whenever he tries to get up or cast a spell. Clerics lack the arcane defenses against this sort of tactic.
Oh, that's nasty. I like it!
2: Gimmicks: Fogcutting Lenses on the whole enemy party followed by a fog cloud. Having concealment or total concealment verses the party is huge, especially when the enemy party can freely maneuver about the cloud without any trouble.
And I like this too.
Traps. Even the most basic traps can screw with a fight, the enemy party can lay out the ground work with simple things like a silent image over a hand dug pit. The party lacks a rogue, so a trap-smith could really screw with them especially if they can't see the traps through the fog. Even just filling the area with bear-traps would work.
One problem here is that the rival party may have to assault the PCs in their lair, if the PCs won't come out and fight. Which they probably won't. Which is why I'm willing to use some dirty-ish tricks here.
More in a bit --

ShroudedInLight |

What is the PC's lair? Because they could open up with some spells to destroy it or force them outside if its a non-magical structure. Dropping a cloud kill into their lair would force them out pretty quickly, so would dropping it on their head with Shatter or Sonic damage. Energy Siege Shot seems pretty solid for battering down a house.
Anyway, I was gonna suggest some spells.
Reflex:
Pit Spells: From Spiked Pit all the way to Acid Pit, the cleric needs Line of Sight and line of effect to target allies. The only thing they can do from a hole in the ground is cast spells straight up and try to clamber up the walls. Cover the pit with Stone Shape and you've ruined him for the entire fight.
Entangle Spells: From Entangle on up, these spells are brutal, force caster level checks to cast spells, and sickening Entanglement is a favorite of mine for completely ruining someone's day.
Spike Growth: Magical caltrops to impede movement
Spike Stones: More magical caltrops to impede movement
Obsidion Flow: Even MORE magical caltrops and entangles folks, double whammy for your monk and cleric
Etheric Shards: The KING of magical caltrops, these will ruin your monk's day whenever he fails a reflex save.
Fortitude:
Cloud Kill: Speaking of Cloud Kill, with foggcutters lenses your enemy party can see through this and watch as the Wizard chokes to death in it.
Binding Earth: Something you can try to slap on the Monk, though depending on his fort save he might avoid it. Still, it will inflict 1d6 points of damage for each tile he moves through on a successful cast. Consider lowering his saves first with Con damage, Evil Eye, or etc.
Control Winds: Swat the Wizard out of the air with a Windstorm.
Fleshworm Infestation: Completely disable a character while they're eaten alive by worms
Khain's Army: A great way to conjure up addition threats, and they force fort saves constantly against paralyzation.
Wracking Ray: 3d4 Str and Dex damage on a failed save is absurd. This will take whoever you hit with it out of the game.

AlastarOG |

Ok so there's been good ideas here but let me be the dick who makes the nuanced point.
Why are you doing this ?
Will it increase the dramatic tention at the table ? Will it impart a valuable lesson to the players? Will they heaps that lesson.
Define your story elements before you define your mechanical elements.
Who is attacking the party ? Is it a rival group of adventurers ? Have they met the PC's so far ? What are their goals ? Do they seek to win or kill? Triumph or take monetary positions ?
If you answer that question then the next part of strategy is easy.
Rival group? Who's the party? What are their classes and ressources ? What can they leverage.
In strategy, it is always better to have a strong tactical point that best leverages YOUR assets rather than to counter the OTHER PARTY's assets. Now once you have that ideal engagement scenario in mind, how do you optimise it's happenstance (if you have a stealthy group, how do they become stealthier, if you have a magic based group, how do you shore up those weaknesses even more).
If you're only asking what's the best way to wreck your party, here's the answer I give everyone:
Flagbearer bard
Saurian druid
Exploiter wizard
occultist arcanist
Cleric
Everyone gets the 3 feat chain for druid animal companion if they don't. Wizard gets craft wondrous items.
Load up casting stats with +6 items, open with:
Everyone wins Ini (ambush or spells for Ini) druid and occultist place 1d3+1 of their best summon around ennemies.
Bard sings
Cleric casts blessing of fervor
Wizard casts hemispheric wall of force or straight wall of force that blocks room.
Round 2
Cleric casts "conjure food and water"
Arcanist turns water into wine.
The party watches the awesome flag dancing show the bard puts forward in order to stimulate the fire dire tigers wrecking s$!$ on other side of the wall.

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All right, let’s see. A bard, summoner, cleric, wizard and a monk. The bard seems to be the easiest to counter with things as silence, although casting Paranoia on him/her would be amazingly funny.
For the Summoner and (mostly) the Wizard, a very problematic opponent would be an abjuration specialist like a Spellscar Oracle. Give him/her Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus Abjuration, Dispel Focus and Abundant Revelations. As revelations, pick Trigger Primal Magic Event and Magic Penetration . With this setup, have the Oracle use Dismissal (with a Persistent Metamagic Gem if you want) to get rid of the Eidolon, his Primal Magic Revelation to mess with the Wizard, and then ready to counterspell the Wizard on all spells which will keep the Wizard at bay and the Summoner inconvenienced.
For the Monk (and the Summoner if it still has the Eidolon) you need to create something that they do not want to hit. If they use slashing/piercing, have their opponent loaded up with Caustic Blood. Thorn Body is also a good one, and Resinous Skin for some DR. The Idea is that they can be hit, but the PC’s don’t really want to. A Druid would be amazing for this, Wild Shaped into something with a lot of movement options and speed to keep up in case that is necessary.
The Cleric may be the most difficult to counter, as it is a all-round character. So it might be easier to keep the Cleric busy instead. An evoker might be just a damage output that the Cleric can counter, but it forces the Cleric to keep healing, instead of dealing with the problems.
But as already stated above, terrain is the key to victory. Preferably, you get them out of their lair to a place that you can prepare beforehand. Symbol spells (covered by illusions), terrain that a Druid can alter easily (Stone to MudMud to Stone, Thirsting Entangle), easy hiding places to wait out the PC’s, etc, etc. But to get them there, I think they need to trick the PC’s. As example, if your PC’s consider the rival party to be incompetent buffoons, then the rival party can use that to their advantage in their plot to take them down. The PC’s are aware that they are using Lesser Planar Ally, what if they let your PC’s believe that they overreached?
The idea is to strengthen the PC’s idea that they are idiots who cannot control their called creatures. The PC’s will buff themselves to deal with the (fire-based) creatures and therefore waste resources on things that won’t influence the rival party’s tactics. Have the village square be the place of the final showdown, with a fake summoning circle in the middle with some creatures to defend it. Have the rival party hide in a nearby building, ready to strike when the PC’s guard is down.

Zoin |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
As someone mentioned, fort saves is a big weakness in your group, i'll add reflex saves probably.
Two spells will hurt badly : web and stinking cloud, especially if you want to capture the team.
Having a consular imp as familiar would be awesome as it would mean perfect recon. Add maybe a one way window so that your ennemy party can basically know exactly what your players are doing and where they are standing.
Idealy, stinking cloud should be cast in an area where the players can't get out, sooner or later they'll fail their save.
Do your synthesist sleep morphed into his eidolon ?
If not, then attack when he sleeps. He'll be a piece of cake to deal with.
Else, he should be the first target with a teleportation anchor (it's a ranged touch attack with no save).
Tactics is very difficult to give, because actually, we don't know the exact details of your party abilities.
But strategically, your ennemies should try to get surprise, start the fight invisible, and if they can have both a neckless of adaptation and lense cutting fog, they should start the fight with a good old stinking cloud : they negate sight and they force a save each round.
To access the PC lair, they can teleport, stone shape to create openings where there are none etc ...
If they can get the adequate preparation, have perfect recon, then your party won't stand a chance, whatever opposition, like when a party of players do the same (i play a shroedinger wizard, with fast study, an invis flying tiny familiar, a one way window and cristal ball, and basically know what i'm against, choose the terrain, and when we fight).
So stinking cloud on all, hitting the sythesist with a dimensional anchor, the cleric could be sent in a pit (can he fly ? else i doubt he can climb out the pit, and get a good reflex save) the monk is actually easy to handle, if the pcs are in a locked place, and the ennemies are all invis/within a stinking cloud. A persistant hold person could be enought to deal with him. A good suggestion spell could turn him against his party.
One thing also you could do, is the night before the attack, have one player who likes partying meet a new lady ... who happens to be a succubi. DC 23 dominate sucks badly. If he's really into partying, then he can even score and bring back home 3 nice ladies (because a foursome is even better than a threesome) and now he has to save 3 times vs DC 23. Dominate lasting a few days, you could even do it with secret rolls, and have the attacks a few days after his encounter, you'd secretly roll his save, and during the fight, tell him his switching sides.
Actually, the more i type the better that idea sounds :)
In order not to frustrate too much the player, and have proof of your fairness, you could do this :
- At the beggining of the session, ask the player you know you're going to target with those nice girls, roll X d20s (the number of succubus he'll face) and writing the results in front of him. If he asks why, just say you'll say later.
- Have the session etc ... and when he has a good time, just roleplay the scene, and have him/her go home and go to sleep. The PC is under domination now, and no player is aware of it.
- Don't have him do anything against his nature, so not to give him another roll, but basically, it could just be "at 2 am tomorow, you'll meet me by the fountain, and you'll leave your lair's door opened".
So when the s!$% hits the fan, and the fight starts, that PC is not with the rest of the group, and will have to face the remaining ennemies, starting dominated and being alone (good luck). He could be coerced to follow the succubi up to the bad guys lair in their prison ^^, but do it after the rest of the group is taken care of.
If things go bad for the vilains when facing the PCs, they could tell them stop fighting and surrender or we kill "billy bob" we have him captured etc ... could be a good RP :) (drop your weapons surrender or you won't ever find him nor his body.)
Ain't that fun ?

Meirril |
I made an answer to this thread a while back....and the constant ups and downs of the site ate it. /sigh
How about an invisible Imp makes a suicide run with a Dust of Sneezing and Choking? On a successful save they get stunned for 5d4 rounds (the Imp too). Follow up with any offensive AoE attack with Mercy and some melee types to knock out the players.
Or if you want to be 'fair' then have your high level caster cast Acid Pit (or a higher level version of the Create Pit spell), a lower level caster casts silence on an invisible rock that gets throw into the pit, someone else low level casts grease on the sides of the pit, someone with a good caster level throws a dazing Ball of Fire in the pit, and some contracted Fendish Minotaurs try to bull rush in anyone that made the save vs the pit. Also a group of 4 4th level Gunslingers armed with +1 seeking pistols are prepared to disrupt any casters they can see.

Dave Justus |

Honestly, even without planning 4 8th plus 1 9th level NPCs (if made with PC wealth) have a better than even odds of TPK against 5 8th level PCs without any plans to specifically counter particular foes or planar binding shenanigans.
I can't see your party surviving against the tactics you outlined, basically you have pretty much neutralized all of them with only minions, leaving the rest of your evil party to focus on one PC a round, probably killing him.
I guess if that is your goal it will work out fine, but I don't really see it being fun for anyone.

AlastarOG |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |

Honestly, even without planning 4 8th plus 1 9th level NPCs (if made with PC wealth) have a better than even odds of TPK against 5 8th level PCs without any plans to specifically counter particular foes or planar binding shenanigans.
I can't see your party surviving against the tactics you outlined, basically you have pretty much neutralized all of them with only minions, leaving the rest of your evil party to focus on one PC a round, probably killing him.
I guess if that is your goal it will work out fine, but I don't really see it being fun for anyone.
Yeah exactly, this just makes very little dramatic sense

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I would let the evil party use the PC’s as scrapegoats for their own plans. Alterself or disguise person to hand them the blame. Use the planar allies as distractions so the pc’s are seen in the area and lacks alibis. Plant evidens in their home. Keep up the work until the locals or the authorities pays the PC a visit. Let them try to clear their names and find the Real criminals. Then have your fight in a place of your choosing.

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Use swarms on the wizard and summoner in an under ground complex.
Ex. Vescavor Swarm or Hellwasp Swarm if more nasty is required. Both are outsiders.
Or trick an Angel (summoner lesser ally) to attack them because of some desecration of a temple, for which the group are blamed. Could give the cleric ethical problems...?

Kayerloth |
Douglas Muir 406 wrote:Silence cast on a Tanglefoot bag is a nasty but effective tactic.Is it? Doesn't the Tanglefoot Bag break upon impact, and lose the spell effect?
Even if it broke there's no reason to think this would end the Silence spell if that's what you mean. The spell can target a point in space. Perhaps the chuck of alchemical goo with the Silence on it is not attached to the PC but that would be up to the DM to decide and the PC would still need to move away from the effect. Personally to me it sounds like an interesting tactic keeping in mind the Bag has the Silence aoe on it until thrown and may be disruptive to the party until it is thrown elsewhere.

ShroudedInLight |

VRMH wrote:Even if it broke there's no reason to think this would end the Silence spell if that's what you mean. The spell can target a point in space. Perhaps the chuck of alchemical goo with the Silence on it is not attached to the PC but that would be up to the DM to decide and the PC would still need to move away from the effect. Personally to me it sounds like an interesting tactic keeping in mind the Bag has the Silence aoe on it until thrown and may be disruptive to the party until it is thrown elsewhere.Douglas Muir 406 wrote:Silence cast on a Tanglefoot bag is a nasty but effective tactic.Is it? Doesn't the Tanglefoot Bag break upon impact, and lose the spell effect?
Cast Silence on a rock, put the rock into the tanglefoot bag, throw the tanglefoot bag.
Now, the rock is stuck to the person you hit with the tanglefoot bag.

Thunderlord |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |

So a mirror party has a 50/50 chance of killing the entire player party. Realistically half of the party would die or go down. A party made to counter the player party is practically guaranteed to kill the player party. You should double check that encounter's CR beforehand. I of course have a bias here and maybe your players like dying but I wouldn't. I even disagree with GMs who try to counter the OP Monk grappler. Capturing the party would be the best option as you could use that to further your story.
Is this slaughter of an encounter that you're cooking up meant to kill your party so that you may send them to some pit of hell as part of your adventure? If so then well done. If not then consider it as your party will likely die before giving in to the shame of running away from an equal party.