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It would be better if all ancestries had two ability boosts and one flaw. It would make all ancestries consistent with each other and it would remove the need for mandatory stat boost that don’t make sense.
It would eliminate the need for too many mandatory ability boosts
The mandatory ability boost that makes the least sense is Chr being boosted on all goblins. Sure, some goblins are going to be charismatic (I suppose) but not all.
But it's not just goblins, you could make arguments against the secondary stat boost for many of the ancestries (which I won't go into).
I’d like to see less mandatory stat boosts in general, it’s much easier to say ancestry is always good at X and flawed at Y.
Humans should have flaws too
Giving humans a flaw that they can pick not only makes humans consistent with all other ancestries, but it makes humans much more interesting when they can have flaws as well.
Humans can be flawed? I think yes.
It also shows diversity among human half-races, if you pick a half-orc you can choose to give yourself a flaw in Intelligence or Wisdom (which has been the tradition).
With the additional flaw, it also allows humans the possibility of getting more ancestral feats or other advantages.
New Ancestry Table
Dwarf. Ability Boosts: Con, free. Ability Flaw: Chr
Elf. Ability Boosts: Dex, free. Ability Flaw: Con
Gnome. Ability Boosts: Con, free. Ability Flaw: Str
Goblin. Ability Boosts: Dex, free. Ability Flaw: Wis
Halfling. Ability Boosts: Dex, free. Ability Flaw: Str
Human. Ability Boosts: Free, free. Ability Flaw: Free
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I am more for removing all the flaws. It seems too limiting with the profenciency system of pf2.
The biggest problem I see with this, is the fact that we are already giving up Point Buy stats for something weaker, unless we build optimally for a 16/14/12/12/10/10 stat build before racial modifiers. 18/16/14/12/10/10 after racial modifiers.
Although, forcing people to pick between an 18/14/14/12/10/8 and a 16/16/14/12/10/8 might be interesting.
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TheMonkeyFish wrote: The biggest problem I see with this, is the fact that we are already giving up Point Buy stats for something weaker, unless we build optimally for a 16/14/12/12/10/10 stat build before racial modifiers. 18/16/14/12/10/10 after racial modifiers. Well, humans only have 2 ability boosts and no one complains.
But if stats are a problem, then backgrounds could always give an additional ability boost and we'd be back to where we were before.
Quote: I am more for removing all the flaws. It seems too limiting with the profenciency system of pf2. I'm not sure this will change, it's been in the game for a very long time. Plus, many people like them.
And now more than ever, it's so easy to turn even a flaw into a good ability, you can even use your free ability boost to do so. If there are no flaws, the ancestries might as well be the same.
Jason S wrote: TheMonkeyFish wrote: The biggest problem I see with this, is the fact that we are already giving up Point Buy stats for something weaker, unless we build optimally for a 16/14/12/12/10/10 stat build before racial modifiers. 18/16/14/12/10/10 after racial modifiers. Well, humans only have 2 ability boosts and no one complains.
That's not actually a point...? Humans have one fewer boost in both PF2e and 1e compared to other races/ancestries in exchange for no flaw and boost flexibility. It's a trade-off. And humans got a bonus feat in 1e to top it off, which 2e still has to a lesser degree.
Maybe better solution would be 2 boosts for each race.
1 fixed for their defining trait
other one free boost.
Humans get 2 free boosts.
or if we "need" racial flaws, then 1 fixex boost, 1 fixed flaw and 2 free boosts.
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I'm perfectly fine with the ability boosts/flaws as is, with only two exceptions:
1) Goblins should get an INT mod instead of a CHA mod. No, Goblins neither do have any universally innate Charismatic force about them, nor should they get one. INT makes far more sense for them, in a Rogueish cunning/inventiveness/trapster kind of way.
2) Humans should get their (Free, Free) boost, as is, but with the option to instead get a (Free, Free, Free, Flaw), where the Flaw is subject to the player's choice.
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Jason S wrote: New Ancestry Table
Dwarf. Ability Boosts: Con, free. Ability Flaw: Chr
Elf. Ability Boosts: Dex, free. Ability Flaw: Con
Gnome. Ability Boosts: Con, free. Ability Flaw: Str
Goblin. Ability Boosts: Dex, free. Ability Flaw: Wis
Halfling. Ability Boosts: Dex, free. Ability Flaw: Str
Human. Ability Boosts: Free, free. Ability Flaw: Free
Vahnyu wrote: 2) Humans should get their (Free, Free) boost, as is, but with the option to instead get a (Free, Free, Free, Flaw), where the Flaw is subject to the player's choice. Why would you not play a human under one of these options? As is is now, you're trading two static boosts (and a flaw, but you probably wouldn't choose a race with a flaw in the primary stat for the class you want) for the ability to choose a boost, as well as access to the best feats. This lets humans be versatile with the downside that their stats are slightly worse than everyone else's.
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CommanderCoyler wrote: Jason S wrote: New Ancestry Table
Dwarf. Ability Boosts: Con, free. Ability Flaw: Chr
Elf. Ability Boosts: Dex, free. Ability Flaw: Con
Gnome. Ability Boosts: Con, free. Ability Flaw: Str
Goblin. Ability Boosts: Dex, free. Ability Flaw: Wis
Halfling. Ability Boosts: Dex, free. Ability Flaw: Str
Human. Ability Boosts: Free, free. Ability Flaw: Free
Vahnyu wrote: 2) Humans should get their (Free, Free) boost, as is, but with the option to instead get a (Free, Free, Free, Flaw), where the Flaw is subject to the player's choice. Why would you not play a human under one of these options? As is is now, you're trading two static boosts (and a flaw, but you probably wouldn't choose a race with a flaw in the primary stat for the class you want) for the ability to choose a boost, as well as access to the best feats. This lets humans be versatile with the downside that their stats are slightly worse than everyone else's. I do not for a single moment believe that Ability scores should be in any way or form comparable to Ancestry Feats.
Human Ancestry Feats should only be comparable to non-human Ancestry Feats, and if those later are found wanting, then that should be fixed(by bringing them up to speed with the human ones).
Vahnyu wrote: CommanderCoyler wrote: Jason S wrote: New Ancestry Table
Dwarf. Ability Boosts: Con, free. Ability Flaw: Chr
Elf. Ability Boosts: Dex, free. Ability Flaw: Con
Gnome. Ability Boosts: Con, free. Ability Flaw: Str
Goblin. Ability Boosts: Dex, free. Ability Flaw: Wis
Halfling. Ability Boosts: Dex, free. Ability Flaw: Str
Human. Ability Boosts: Free, free. Ability Flaw: Free
Vahnyu wrote: 2) Humans should get their (Free, Free) boost, as is, but with the option to instead get a (Free, Free, Free, Flaw), where the Flaw is subject to the player's choice. Why would you not play a human under one of these options? As is is now, you're trading two static boosts (and a flaw, but you probably wouldn't choose a race with a flaw in the primary stat for the class you want) for the ability to choose a boost, as well as access to the best feats. This lets humans be versatile with the downside that their stats are slightly worse than everyone else's. I do not for a single moment believe that Ability scores should be in any way or form comparable to Ancestry Feats.
Human Ancestry Feats should only be comparable to non-human Ancestry Feats, and if those later are found wanting, then that should be fixed(by bringing them up to speed with the human ones). The feats are beside the point, the point is: With humans not losing one boost to be able to freely choose their stats, why would you play anything else? You'd want to get the best stats for your class, human with those can always do that with pretty much no downside.
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Essentially what CommanderCoyler is saying is, you've made race selection look like this:
Pick:
- Fixed Boost, Free Boost, Fixed Flaw
- Free Boost, Free Boost, Free Flaw
What would literally everyone choose?
The second one. Every time all the time. Not until you had 30 alternatives that represented all possible combinations of fixed Boost and Flaw.
No, that'd just mean that Humans would be just as good for every class as any other ancestry, so you'd have at least one additional great ancestry for them.
Now, on the other side of the fence, if other ancestries get (Free, Fixed, Fixed, Fixed Flaw), with Humans getting (Free, Free) only, there's very little reason to choose Humans, as there's most definitely an ancestry that does class X better than them.
So you go back to balancing ancestries by giving them lower quality feats, whilst giving the humans the real goodies. that seems like a worse design workspace, to me, honestly.
(and if having a single ancestry get boosts on all physical or all mental abilities at once is such a serious unbalancing gamebreaker, just put a caveat that one Free Boost must go to (STR, CON, or DEX) and one Free Boost must go to (INT, WIS, or CHA))
Vahnyu wrote: I'm perfectly fine with the ability boosts/flaws as is, with only two exceptions:
1) Goblins should get an INT mod instead of a CHA mod. No, Goblins neither do have any universally innate Charismatic force about them, nor should they get one. INT makes far more sense for them, in a Rogueish cunning/inventiveness/trapster kind of way.
I agree, no autmatic CHR boost for goblins. If I had to pick a secondary stat though, I like CON better than INT for goblins, although I'm not crazy about either, which is why I wrote this post.
Draco18s wrote: Essentially what CommanderCoyler is saying is, you've made race selection look like this:
Pick:
- Fixed Boost, Free Boost, Fixed Flaw
- Free Boost, Free Boost, Free Flaw
What would literally everyone choose?
The second one.
We already have that with humans picking both boosts and having no flaws.
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Jason S wrote: Draco18s wrote: Essentially what CommanderCoyler is saying is, you've made race selection look like this:
Pick:
- Fixed Boost, Free Boost, Fixed Flaw
- Free Boost, Free Boost, Free Flaw
What would literally everyone choose?
The second one.
We already have that with humans picking both boosts and having no flaws.
Which is why they're balanced by having one less boost. Again, the flaw doesn't matter, you're not going to play an ancestry with a flaw to your class's main stat(s) unless something else makes up for it i.e. feats
Jason S wrote: We already have that with humans picking both boosts and having no flaws. Look at your own table again:
Jason S wrote: Human. Ability Boosts: Free, free. Ability Flaw: Free Two boosts and a flaw.
CommanderCoyler wrote: Jason S wrote: Draco18s wrote: Essentially what CommanderCoyler is saying is, you've made race selection look like this:
Pick:
- Fixed Boost, Free Boost, Fixed Flaw
- Free Boost, Free Boost, Free Flaw
What would literally everyone choose?
The second one.
We already have that with humans picking both boosts and having no flaws.
Which is why they're balanced by having one less boost. Again, the flaw doesn't matter, you're not going to play an ancestry with a flaw to your class's main stat(s) unless something else makes up for it i.e. feats There is absolutely no reason to pick an ancestry that has a flaw to your class's main stat, unless you really want to. The Dwarf's Charisma flaw means squat for many classes, and especially for Druids.
Ability boosts should be balanced against ability boosts
Ancestry feats should be balanced against ancestry feats
Humans receiving 2 Free Boosts versus 1 Free Boost, 2 Fixed Boosts, and 1 Fixed Flaw, is just as fine as them receiving 3 Free Boosts and 1 Free Flaw (And I'd go one more and say that you should be able to use up your Free Boost to fix your Flaw). If 3 boosts on physical stats is too much for some godforsaken reason, the caveat that 1 of those three boosts should come from STR, CON, DEX, and the other from INT, WIS, CHA, should be plenty enough.
Draco18s wrote: Look at your own table again: I'm talking about the Playtest rules, not my proposal.
Commander said: Why would I pick a race where I can't pick all my boosts? And my response was that was already the case.
CommanderCoyler wrote: Which is why they're balanced by having one less boost. Again, the flaw doesn't matter, you're not going to play an ancestry with a flaw to your class's main stat(s) unless something else makes up for it i.e. feats The main reason why humans have one less boost is because they don't have a flaw.
You're arguing that because humans get to pick an additional boost, they're getting one less. If that was the case, I'd pick a class that has 4 FIXED boosts instead of Elf who has 2 fixed boosts and 1 free boost. But that's not the case. It's because humans don't have a flaw.
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Jason S wrote: Draco18s wrote: Look at your own table again: I'm talking about the Playtest rules, not my proposal. In a direct reply to me replying about your proposal.
And you haven't ever actually answered the question "Why would you not play human (under your proposal)?". Not that I can find.
You people seem to forget that humans have nothing but the two free boosts. Where's the extra feat? What should replace extra skill point per level? I say give humans at least one extra ancestry feat, and fix the language thing. Paizo are gonna have to think long and hard about this.
Humans kind of already have "Free, Free, Fixed Boost, Fixed Flaw," Except the two fixed stats are always the same stat. You can always fix your flaw with your free boost if you want to in any other race.
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I would like more :
- 1 Fixed boost
- 1 Boost in a selection
- 1 flaw selection
Example :
Elf :
Fixed Boost : Dext
Second boost : Chose between Intel or Wisdom.
Flaw : Chose between Constitution or Strengh
"Elf are gratious and cunning but their body is weaker than most"
(Alternatively, boost could be "Intel or Cha" if the setting is more like "elf are really curious and likable" than "old wise dudes")
Dwarf :
Fixed Boost : Con
Second boost : Str or Wisdom
Flaw : Dex or Cha
"Dwarf are strong, both mentally and physically, but aren't the most agile or social people on Golarion"
So that the race stay a bit more "flavor oriented"
(Because an elf with boost in Strengh seems weird To me. Although there are fictional world were they are strong as hell because magic in blood) but it opens more classes (Dwarven druid)
Or maybe just " Pick 2 Boost in this 3 ability List and one Flaw in this 2 ability list".
Shaheer-El-Khatib wrote: I would like more :
- 1 Fixed boost
- 1 Boost in a selection
- 1 flaw selection
Example :
Elf :
Fixed Boost : Dext
Second boost : Chose between Intel or Wisdom.
Flaw : Chose between Constitution or Strengh
"Elf are gratious and cunning but their body is weaker than most"
(Alternatively, boost could be "Intel or Cha" if the setting is more like "elf are really curious and likable" than "old wise dudes")
Dwarf :
Fixed Boost : Con
Second boost : Str or Wisdom
Flaw : Dex or Cha
"Dwarf are strong, both mentally and physically, but aren't the most agile or social people on Golarion"
So that the race stay a bit more "flavor oriented"
(Because an elf with boost in Strengh seems weird To me. Although there are fictional world were they are strong as hell because magic in blood) but it opens more classes (Dwarven druid)
Or maybe just " Pick 2 Boost in this 3 ability List and one Flaw in this 2 ability list".
I generally am mostly fine with this (far less so with the other suggestions in the thread, which I generally don't think are well thought out enough), but in this instance, I'd still like to see something that grants what is now the free boost from ancestry. As it stands, that free boost does so much work, that getting rid of it is the wrong decision, and honestly, I think I still well prefer how it is now, but I think this could work, but it might need Backgrounds or something to pull a little more weight.
Tholomyes wrote: Shaheer-El-Khatib wrote: I would like more :
- 1 Fixed boost
- 1 Boost in a selection
- 1 flaw selection
Example :
Elf :
Fixed Boost : Dext
Second boost : Chose between Intel or Wisdom.
Flaw : Chose between Constitution or Strengh
"Elf are gratious and cunning but their body is weaker than most"
(Alternatively, boost could be "Intel or Cha" if the setting is more like "elf are really curious and likable" than "old wise dudes")
Dwarf :
Fixed Boost : Con
Second boost : Str or Wisdom
Flaw : Dex or Cha
"Dwarf are strong, both mentally and physically, but aren't the most agile or social people on Golarion"
So that the race stay a bit more "flavor oriented"
(Because an elf with boost in Strengh seems weird To me. Although there are fictional world were they are strong as hell because magic in blood) but it opens more classes (Dwarven druid)
Or maybe just " Pick 2 Boost in this 3 ability List and one Flaw in this 2 ability list".
I generally am mostly fine with this (far less so with the other suggestions in the thread, which I generally don't think are well thought out enough), but in this instance, I'd still like to see something that grants what is now the free boost from ancestry. As it stands, that free boost does so much work, that getting rid of it is the wrong decision, and honestly, I think I still well prefer how it is now, but I think this could work, but it might need Backgrounds or something to pull a little more weight. EDIT : I wasn't really awake when writting and my answer was silly.
Yeah sure. One free boost. Why not.
If you want it.
I wouldn't use this free boost myself though and stick with my first suggestion. I prefer Flaw being flaws. You can overcome them by training but that are the boost you get in the next step of character creation.
But at birth you has the Flaw.
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