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Well, if a spell is unsuitable for certain types of adventure, then making it deity-based means that players can still break the adventure if they want.
So the idea could be that it's up to the GM to decide which 'uncommon' narrative-breaking spells are OK for the game. If it doesn't look like a problem, then the GM can permit it for any player who bothers to ask.
...Or maybe it's just a future option that isn't in the playtest yet.
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XD YAAAAS
6. This is apropos of nothing, but upon seeing the cyclopes pet smilodon, both the Gnome Barbarian and Elf Ranger shouted 'Kitty!' and expressed desire to pet it it. I allowed them to roll to Aid on the Cleric's Diplomacy check due to everyone liking having their pets approved of. I just wanted to share that.
They ended up rubbing its belly while the cyclopes discussed their dragon problem with the other PCs. My group is having fun. :)
1. What's up with mainstay Cleric spells being Uncommon? Both Protection and Detect (Alignment) are Uncommon, with no listed way to get them? Am I missing something?In PF1, those were both potential narrative-breakers. One is an easy way to negate mind controlling villains, and the other offers a way to smoke out traitors, secret vampires, etc, without doing any real detective work. A good GM could work around the issue, but they probably wanted to give GMs an easy way to opt out of the problem.
If it's intentional, that's one thing, but I've heard nothing of the kind from anyone at Paizo. So I was basically just wondering if it was a straight-up error.
Frankly, without any built-in way to get them in-universe, or any advice on when and how a GM should grant them, I feel that making them Uncommon is jarring without being actually useful or informative.
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Those alignment spells are uncommon due to a goal of making it easier for groups that want to deemphasize (or remove) alignment in the game. In general uncommon means the characters can probably eventually find it if they are willing to look around for it, but groups that want to deemphasize alignment can do so whereas groups that want heavier alignment impact could even choose to make it common if they wish.
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Why would default be Uncommon for sake of people who want to diverge from the default?
It makes sense for "sidebar for Alignment-free/de-emphasized games" to mention removing these from game or adding Uncommon status to them, but even then Uncommon status needs some means of access at least suggested in broad strokes, otherwise it might as well be removed.
...Just feels like something got missed in editing process. Right now anybody following RAW isn't playtesting these spells. If Paizo does want people to playtest these assuming Common access, that would be good to explicitly know and/or be integrated in future Update.
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Those alignment spells are uncommon due to a goal of making it easier for groups that want to deemphasize (or remove) alignment in the game. In general uncommon means the characters can probably eventually find it if they are willing to look around for it, but groups that want to deemphasize alignment can do so whereas groups that want heavier alignment impact could even choose to make it common if they wish.
I think a descriptor [alignment] would do the job better and be much clearer in the intent: it's MUCH easier to sort out spells with [alignment] in them than it is to sort through each and every uncommon spell to see if they involve alignment.
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Those alignment spells are uncommon due to a goal of making it easier for groups that want to deemphasize (or remove) alignment in the game. In general uncommon means the characters can probably eventually find it if they are willing to look around for it, but groups that want to deemphasize alignment can do so whereas groups that want heavier alignment impact could even choose to make it common if they wish.I think a descriptor [alignment] would do the job better and be much clearer in the intent: it's MUCH easier to sort out spells with [alignment] in them than it is to sort through each and every uncommon spell to see if they involve alignment.
Agreed entirely. This would be a vast improvement. It would also let you call out only being able to use the ones approved of by your God more easily and have several other neat side-benefits.
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Those alignment spells are uncommon due to a goal of making it easier for groups that want to deemphasize (or remove) alignment in the game. In general uncommon means the characters can probably eventually find it if they are willing to look around for it, but groups that want to deemphasize alignment can do so whereas groups that want heavier alignment impact could even choose to make it common if they wish.My concern here is for how Alignment will be de-emphasized in Golarion. Alignment was important in the setting. This is making it not so important. I'm not going to lie, I think it is changing Golarion as a setting.
Like - It feels like de-emphasizing alignment as the general in order to accommodate people who don't like it is damaging the setting to accommodate people who don't care about the setting anyway.
I'd rather alignment stay emphasized with optional sidebars for people who want it otherwise.
I care about the setting and am glad they are making these changes. Also, I don't see how making stuff uncommon is harming the setting. Those alignment spells still exist, and to greater degree than I'd personally like. I don't like spells that target specific alignments and we still have those, for example.
The overabundance of detect alignment access in PF1 may in fact made alignment matter less. For example, an AP I ran had a bit of a murder mystery, but the murderer was the only one with an evil alignment. If you had a paladin or Inquisitor in your group, you either had to accept that most of the mystery elements wouldn't matter, or change the murderer to neutral. To me, that doesn't really feel like it makes an evil alignment matter if you wind up altering anyway to make your story work.
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Personally, I think alignment concealing magic is readily enough available in PF1 that it's not a big issue in terms of killing plots (Undetectable Alignment is a 1st level spell that lasts 24 hours, and thus readily accessible via potions or wand, or having a level in Bard...3 levels in Cleric also works), especially since only 5th level or higher people ping on it (unless they're Clerics). You might need to add a Potion of Undetectable Alignment to the enemy's gear...but that's a trivial amount of money by the time they need it.
This is all more or less true in PF2 as well (though I think the Detect Alignment spell has a typo, since the wording is both very weird and seems to indicate it can only ever deyect Clerics and the like and only if they're 6th level).
Personally, I prefer the default for all those spells to be fairly common. If it were me, I'd give them the Alignment Tag, leave them Uncommon, and then note that, in most games, a Divine Caster gets access to [Alignment] spells as a appropriate to their and their God's Alignment, with the aforementioned sidebar regarding removing or making them more rare for those who don't want to deal with Alignment.
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Now, on to my actual playtest, Chapter 4 of which we finished last night:
Everything went pretty well. No PCs ever dropped, though it was a near thing in a couple of cases (both the Ranger and Barbarian took a real beating a couple of times). One PC got paralyzed by the mummy in the final fight, but the Cleric had Channeled Succor and burned one on Remove Paralysis to free him.
Some stuff I noticed:
1. Higher level enemies continue to be much more difficult than low level ones in greater numbers. The Dragon fight (2 level 10s) was a lot harder than the final fight (3 level 8s and a level 9). Some of that may have been due to improved equipment, but mostly only offensively, and the PCs fared much better defensively in the latter fight as well. Some encounter calibration changes seem warranted.
2. Having a Cleric to spot-heal is really great. Probably not irreplacably so, but in-combat healing with maxed spell slots is really good and Clerics have a lot of it.
3. Summon Monster made its first appearance, and Summon Monster V was actually very useful this adventure. Summoning an Air Elemental when fighting a Dragon is actually really excellent, since it provides a flanking buddy and sharply curtails the dragon's mobility unless it spends effort killing the elemental.
4. The Rogue was broken in the final fight using Dust of Disappearance. This didn't effect outcome much, since people just attacked other targets rather than wasting time on him, but he verged on invulnerable. He was also a stand-out damage dealer in other fights (though he took a beating when people realized this and focused on him). Flanking + You're Next + Battle Cry + Dread Striker resulted in some very impressive to-hit numbers in practice.
5. We have noticed that, apparently, being Paralyzed does not penalize Reflex Saves in any way. This seems both wrong and kinda dumb, and should probably be fixed.
6. We all really love the monster design. I still feel the numbers are a bit off (and my players tend to agree), but the actual design for how they play with unique Actions and Reactions just strikes us as really excellent and satisfying. Fighting different kinds of creatures feels different in the best way, and their abilities make good in-story sense for the most part (the Fire Giant's ability to make a 15 foot line attack with his sword, for example, or the Dragon's Draconic Frenzy).
7. I'm still very unconvinced by the Ranger's TWF. Double Slice was (and, for Fighters, remains) great, but Twin Takedown is coming off pretty lackluster. A 3d8+4 attack followed by two 3d6+4 attacks at -3/-6 just doesn't stack up well to the Barbarian getting a 3d10+8 attack, followed by an identical one at -5 (since both usually had to move).
I mean, the Ranger has better to-hit on their first, but adding all three of their attacks together only gets 46.5, while adding the Barbarian's two gives 55. Yes, it becomes 32 to 29 in the Ranger's favor if you count only the Ranger's two attacks vs. the Barbarian's one...but that's a small bonus and only of the second one hits. And Barbarians are much better defensively to boot. And all that is with a 1d10 weapon for the Barbarian. A 1d12 weapon makes it worse (46.5 to 61 and 32 to 34).
Some of this impression is probably rolls (the Barbarian rolled well, and the Ranger poorly) but I was keeping an eye on it specifically, and even taking that into account, I'm very unconvinced that it's mechanically good.
The Ranger was useful this adventure, don't get me wrong, but all of it was Survival and Perception stuff...most of which was available to anyone. You could easily build a Barbarian who did it almost as well (within a point or so)...while I'm not at all convinced the combat stuff was nearly as close (and was all in the Barbarian's favor).
No weirder than getting your full Will while unconscious, IMO.
Now, on to my actual playtest, Chapter 4 of which we finished last night:
Everything went pretty well. No PCs ever dropped, though it was a near thing in a couple of cases (both the Ranger and Barbarian took a real beating a couple of times). One PC got paralyzed by the mummy in the final fight, but the Cleric had Channeled Succor and burned one on Remove Paralysis to free him.
Some stuff I noticed:
1. Higher level enemies continue to be much more difficult than low level ones in greater numbers. The Dragon fight (2 level 10s) was a lot harder than the final fight (3 level 8s and a level 9). Some of that may have been due to improved equipment, but mostly only offensively, and the PCs fared much better defensively in the latter fight as well. Some encounter calibration changes seem warranted.
2. Having a Cleric to spot-heal is really great. Probably not irreplacably so, but in-combat healing with maxed spell slots is really good and Clerics have a lot of it.
3. Summon Monster made its first appearance, and Summon Monster V was actually very useful this adventure. Summoning an Air Elemental when fighting a Dragon is actually really excellent, since it provides a flanking buddy and sharply curtails the dragon's mobility unless it spends effort killing the elemental.
4. The Rogue was broken in the final fight using Dust of Disappearance. This didn't effect outcome much, since people just attacked other targets rather than wasting time on him, but he verged on invulnerable. He was also a stand-out damage dealer in other fights (though he took a beating when people realized this and focused on him). Flanking + You're Next + Battle Cry + Dread Striker resulted in some very impressive to-hit numbers in practice.
5. We have noticed that, apparently, being Paralyzed does not penalize Reflex Saves in any way. This seems both wrong and kinda dumb, and should probably be fixed.
6. We all really love the monster design. I still feel the numbers are a bit off (and my players tend to...
3. Summon Monster III was really good for air elementals in my game. It twice saved our sorcerer. It's functionally improved Fly for small characters.
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No weirder than getting your full Will while unconscious, IMO.
Given that Will is passive resistance and Reflex is an active, physical, act of dodging, I really don't feel they're the same at all.
Will and Fortitude are more equivalent, and both should be fine while unconscious or paralyzed, or whatever...but movement restrictions shouls have some effect on Reflex.
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Given that Will is passive resistance and Reflex is an active, physical, act of dodging, I really don't feel they're the same at all.
Will and Fortitude are more equivalent, and both should be fine while unconscious or paralyzed, or whatever...but movement restrictions shouls have some effect on Reflex.
To me that reads "Reflex as a save is poorly designed, and should be rethemed so that people don't feel the need to give arbitrary penalties to it".
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Asleep says that you critically fail all reflex saves, plus you are flat footed for a -2 circumstance to AC, and also get a conditional -4.
Unconscious, same penalties to AC but reflexes are ok.
Paralyzed is only flat-footed.
I think they should put the penalties into the Immobile condition, and use that as a rider.
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To me that reads "Reflex as a save is poorly designed, and should be rethemed so that people don't feel the need to give arbitrary penalties to it".
Uh...no? I'm fine with things giving penalties to Fortitude and Will, and indeed many things do. They're just different categories of things, and the category that should apply to Reflex is things that immobilize you.
Asleep says that you critically fail all reflex saves, plus you are flat footed for a -2 circumstance to AC, and also get a conditional -4.
Unconscious, same penalties to AC but reflexes are ok.
Paralyzed is only flat-footed.I think they should put the penalties into the Immobile condition, and use that as a rider.
That is, in fact, deeply wird and inconsistent and should be fixed.
I personally feel that makes it too easy to tank Reflex (can you name an effect that makes you crit fail all Fort saves?).
But I suppose Reflex is generally the least bad save to fail, so maybe it works out?
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I personally feel that makes it too easy to tank Reflex (can you name an effect that makes you crit fail all Fort saves?).
But I suppose Reflex is generally the least bad save to fail, so maybe it works out?
No, I agree that auto-crit failing them is actually excessive. But it's not like 'Nothing' and 'auto-crit fail' are binary options. You can easily have, y'know, a numeric penalty of some sort built in.
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So, this week we basically did character creation (we could maybe have also gotten in a single combat, but decided to wait for the 1.5 errata since we had two Evocation focused PCs).
The players made a Gnome Storm Order Druid (with Str 8 and a Shortbow for when she isn't casting), an Elf Paladin of Sarenrae (going Scimitar and Shield with a heavy shield emphasis, and taking the Feat that gives you Channel Energy), a Goblin Evocation Wizard (no non-magical attacks, though there are cantrips), and a Human (Half Orc) Bard with Rogue Multiclass...and Fighter Multiclass via the Human 9th level Feat and a Bastard Sword (she has Dirge of Doom, all the Inspire Courage stuff, Harmonize, and Dread Striker...she should be scary when she has actions to be).
We'll see how they do. I do expect them to die, but the heavy healing emphasis should help get them a fair ways in.
No major issues came up. We're getting pretty used to character creation, and honestly it doesn't take more than an hour per person (and often less)...until we get to spells. Those take a while.
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So, we finished the first wave (and the one hour break) of Chapter 5 last night.
The PCs are all still alive and, due to Treat Wounds, actually all back at full health, and nobody was actually rendered unconscious. Some strategic Channeling from the Paladin definitely helped people not to go down.
That said, they've burned a lot of their resources (maybe half their high level spells, for example), and given that two of them are Evocation specialists that's gonna hurt later. At the moment I'm expecting them to make it through the second wave...but definitely not the third.
Some issues have also definitely cropped up with specific characters:
1. A Dirge of Doom combat Bard with Dread Striker is really good. -1 to everything on all enemies you're within 30 feet of and another -2 to their AC vs. you is mostly like Inspire Courage but better. This specific character can actually Inspire Heroics and combine the two via Harmonize and Lingering Composition...but that hasn't come up yet.
2. My worries about a non-Reach Paladin are definitely looking solidly confirmed. The Paladin didn't roll super well, but Retributive Strike actually hit all of once, and he only even got to make any of them once someone Enlarged him (for Reach).
I'm also a tad worried that Retributive Strike, and thus Paladins, are not nearly as good versus higher level foes as they are at minion sweeping. That's true of all PCs to some extent, but seems even more true of this tactic...and that's super counter-thematic for Paladins (who have historically, and very thematically, been good versus single specific foes).
3. Evocation seems quite solid when you can target Weaknesses. I'm less certain it's good enough when you cannot. Not vs. on-level opposition, anyway.
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Addendum: This chapter has a layout problem. In Encounter 2, I accidentally included the Toad Demon despite having only 4 PCs, simply because it was a listed monster right after the Treachery Demons and, not having 5 players, I didn't read the 5 player adjustment (which is where it's made clear that you only add the Toad Demon then).
I'll be refunding the players some resources to account for this (two Chain Lightnings and a Lightning Bolt to the casters, a Spell Point to the Paladin, and a single Cold Iron arrow), but that's just terrible and confusing formatting.
I obviously won't be making that mistake again, but it's a really easy one to make.
Yeah I kind of feel retributive strike should be a optional feature and not a core on to the paladin (provided they don't go with my first idea and break it into 2 classes knight and paladin.) Could be a class feat but I think it being the base one moves paladins to the reach weapon which is a big break from more traditional paladins.
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So, with a player missing we did the Resonance/Focus Playtest instead of continuing Chapter 5 this week (we'll finish Chapter 5 next week). The players picked Kyra, Fumbus, and Amiri and I threw in Merisiel as an NPC on a whim, more or less (I feel like it's weird if Kyra's there and she isn't, and they needed some fourth character).
As a game, it went fine. As a playtest...nobody actually spent Focus on an item at any time. The person playing Kyra used Fire Ray several times (and it was very effective), but that was actually it as far as Focus expenditures went.
So...yeah, that's more or less what happened. Nothing too surprising rules wise in areas other than the Focus/Resonance stuff either.
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So, we continued with Chapter 5 last night, and the PCs have survived all the way until the start of the final fight. Indeed, after burning almost all their healing resources (I think they have 5 charges of the Wand left plus one Spell Point from the Paladin and the Bard's ability to cast Soothe...they are out of Potions), they're all actually at full health (well, minus the two who are Drained 2, which puts them down 24 HP each in an unrecoverable fashion).
They are, however, down to their two offensive casters having a total, between them, of four offensive spells plus Cantrips and a few spell points (the Bard has a debuff or two available).
There was some serious luck involved there, since the Toad Demons critically failing about half the Reflex Saves they make, while appropriate, is not mathematically likely. Nor is the Demilich actually taking 150 points of damage from two Disintegrates (in both cases, Spell Turning had already been used...lucky PCs). Plus the Wizard actually successfully banished one Boar Demon (a huge deal).
But they did survive. I admit, once they took out the Demilich I just handwaved killing the Mummy Retainers, but I don't feel they actually would've spent any resources on that (well, maybe a couple of charges of the Wand), so I' don't feel too bad about this from a playtest perspective.
I'm pretty sure the Mutilation Demon is gonna kill them all, though. They just lack the resources to defeat it before it wrecks them (though they'll hurt it...two of the remaining offensive spells are Cone of Cold).
In terms of how individual PCs did, the blasters actually continued to be quite effective, while the Paladin was...lacklustre due to a lack of Reach. The Bard got debuffed a few times (particularly by the Boar Demons) and it became very clear exactly what the down side is of such an action economy heavy build, but she was still very effective.
Next week we finish that fight and then create characters for Chapter 6, using update 1.6. Should be fun (there's gonna be a Mutagen focused Alchemist and a high Charisma Monk...I dunno what else, though I'm gonna suggest Sorcerer since that's the one Class we've only seen at 1st level, and Charisma seems appropriate).
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So...uh, my PCs won the final fight.
The Paladin got a successful hit with Retributive Strike, which gave the Demon (with Weakness) 19 Ongoing Good Damage, and then the Paladin critted once for something like 70 damage...before he died. The Wizard hit the Demon with Glitterdust...and it failed it's Save. Then two Cones of Cold, neither of which it crit saved on, and the second one of which it actually failed. The Bard also hit the Demon once (in addition to doing some serious buffing), and the Druid both Enlarged the Bard and hit it once.
It also missed several attacks due to needing to make DC 5 flat checks.
That Demon just had no luck at all on the rolls that mattered (it rolled quite well on several attacks, critting...but heck, it would've done that on average-ish rolls). It also only had about three rounds of combat, total, and literally nobody ever failed the save vs. it's gaze aura.
The clear lessons from my run through of this are that non-Reach Paladins have real problems pre-update 1.6, and that Evocation effects are quite good vs. creatures with Weaknesses and when the enemy fail Saves.
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We then moved on to character creation for Chapter 6 and got two completed and two others outlined. So far we have a Half Elf Sailor Alchemist with a mutagen focus who works as a field researcher (he appears to be the Esoteric Order's Aboleth-punching expert, based on stats), a Human Imperial Sorcerer with a serious diplomacy/utility spell focus (and a Greater Staff of Evocation for when things get dicey), a Human Charisma-heavy Monk who works as a spy (based heavily on Steven Seagal), and a Rogue of unknown Ancestry (apparently an archivist for the Order).
Multitalented to grab Rogue Dedication is perhaps too good a Feat combo. So far we're three for four on Humans (and Half Elves and Half Orcs) taking that Ancestry Feat specifically...and the fourth had Rogue Dedication already (they took Multitalented to grab Fighter Dedication instead).
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Hey Deadman! Ya I can't believe we actually survived chapter 5...
Sorry all, I'm one of Deadman's players and though I'm not usually a big fan of forum trawling he has talked about this place enough that I figured I'd give it a shot and at least say hi.
I can not overstate how much our evocation wizard saved the entire chapter. I was playing the storm druid and more or less held my own but where I had a bit more utility, the sheer damage of the evo wizard saved the day.
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Hey Deadman! Ya I can't believe we actually survived chapter 5...
Sorry all, I'm one of Deadman's players and though I'm not usually a big fan of forum trawling he has talked about this place enough that I figured I'd give it a shot and at least say hi.
I can not overstate how much our evocation wizard saved the entire chapter. I was playing the storm druid and more or less held my own but where I had a bit more utility, the sheer damage of the evo wizard saved the day.
Howdy! You're a lucky player to have Deadmanwalking as a GM.
I'd like to think so, He's been a great friend and GM for over 15 years. FYI for the reoccurring characters I play the intimidate build goblin rogue and it's been fun. In chapter 2 i was the dragon style monk, chapter 3 I was the cleric of Erastil and in chapter 6 I'm going to be playing the mutagen alchemist. Okay I'll leave you guys to it and try to stay in the player sections goodbye all.
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It's good to see you here, as well as in person. :)
So, we did Chapter 6. The final player made an Elf Rogue focusing on, well, lots of things. The most relevant one is Sense The Unseen. We determined the Monk was Necerion's nemesis, and I let Necerion know everything about him but his most recent Feat choice (this will become relevant later).
The players pretty casually waltzed through the gathering of information (though nobody critted), and since two had Hobnobber, they wound up with one success on every task. The Monk did crit-fail the Besmara thing (which was very appropriate given that he described it as impersonating a Priest of Besmara)...but had a starting movement of 50, so it wasn't super relevant.
Then they went to the gala. With a +25 Diplomacy, the Sorcerer proceeded to quite effectively get info out of Kad, and then they took the direct approach to warning Whark about Necerion, succeeding but not critting their Diplomacy. They then waited for Necerion to proceed and followed him.
Then they got to the room where he's hiding with Disappearance. And the Rogue started trying to track him. He got somewhere north of 30 on his Survival check and Necerion got in the mid 20s on Stealth. I ruled that found a trail leading to where he was standing. I might have been more restrictive...but all the Rogue needed was one action to auto-find him, so I let it work.
They then all beat him on initiative (he rolled a 2), and proceeded to surround and attack him. They managed to pass their flat checks a statistically unlikely amount doing serious damage (though he crit saved vs. the Sorcerer's Glitterdust) and then it was his turn, so he did a high level Paralysis on them...only to run into the Monk's 14th level Feat, which was AoO as a part of Fighter Multiclass. Even then he probably would've been fine, but the Monk crit. So he immediately used Quickened Feeblemind on the Sorcerer because I refuse to metagame and that was the best option from his perspective (well, that or paralysis)...and ran right into her Spell Turning. Not that his being Stupefied mattered, as they proceeded to kill him over the course of the next round (they made something like 2/3 of their flat checks and almost every attack hit).
And...uh, at that point Whark had agreed to give them the book...so she did. Game over in less than three hours. Character creation took longer. On to Chapter 7.
Then they got to the room where he's hiding with Disappearance. And the Rogue started trying to track him. He got somewhere north of 30 on his Survival check and Necerion got in the mid 20s on Stealth. I ruled that found a trail leading to where he was standing. I might have been more restrictive...but all the Rogue needed was one action to auto-find him, so I let it work.
Wouldn't the player be rolling against Necerion's survival DC, not stealth? Which would have led to the same result as IIRC Necerion wasn't amazing at survival, but it seems relevant for future reference.
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Wouldn't the player be rolling against Necerion's survival DC, not stealth? Which would have led to the same result as IIRC Necerion wasn't amazing at survival, but it seems relevant for future reference.
Then they got to the room where he's hiding with Disappearance. And the Rogue started trying to track him. He got somewhere north of 30 on his Survival check and Necerion got in the mid 20s on Stealth. I ruled that found a trail leading to where he was standing. I might have been more restrictive...but all the Rogue needed was one action to auto-find him, so I let it work.
Given that Necerion didn't use the Cover Your Tracks action, I don't think so. It should perhaps not have interacted with his Stealth either, since absent Cover Tracks all the game says is for the GM to decide based on freshness and terrain (and we're talking tracks a minute old or less here...though admittedly on a stone floor).
That said, I basically just didn't worry about it because the Rogue both got a result in the 30s and had the ability to auto-succeed if he just decided to use Perception to try and find him.
I, uh, am a bit flabbergasted. What makes you think that Whark would just give the book to the PC's? Is there any indication for that in the Scenario I overlooked?
If the PCs secure Whark’s cooperation, she gladly allows them to take The Last Theorem as their prize and promises to cooperate more with the Esoteric Order in the future.
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I, uh, am a bit flabbergasted. What makes you think that Whark would just give the book to the PC's? Is there any indication for that in the Scenario I overlooked?
As Xenocrat notes, it's pretty explicit in her encounter entry. I mean...I guess you could read that otherwise, but her giving them the book seems to be the intent, and they presented a good case with documentation supporting their assertions about the need for the book, since one of them was the Archivist for the Order ('We need this book to save the world, and all your stuff is in the world...').
Can you provide more specifics on the Ranger's build?
Sure. She was an Elf Pathfinder Hopeful and at 9th level, she had Str 18, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 10.
Ancestry Feats: Keen Hearing, Nimble, Unwavering Mien (since this was...update 1.3, I believe, before Heritages anyway).
General Feats: Fleet, Expeditious Search.
Class Feats: Twin Takedown, Quick Draw, Twin Parry, Swift Tracker, Hazard Finder.
Skills: Master in Survival and Nature, Trained in Acrobatics, Athletics, Medicine, Occultism, Society, Stealth, and a couple of Lores.
Skill Feats: Additional Lore, Underwater Marauder, Streetwise, Experienced Tracker, Quick Recognition.
She attacked at +16 w/ a +2 Trident and used Doubling Rings to do the same with a Light Hammer, and had Returning on her Trident as her ranged option. Her AC was 29/26 in +2 Elven Chainmail (gained by spending two items), with her other items adding to Survival and Perception, and her Saves were +15/+17/+14.
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I must say that as a player I was disappointed in not going through the dungeon after hearing about it after the fact but at the same time, our fight with Necerion was one of the most satisfying gangland beat downs I’ve ever been a part of:)
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Thanks Xeno and Deadman, I noted this, but this is the first time I hear it interpreted as "Just gives them the book". Ist a good Interpretation and worked fine, so why not? Seems a bit of a waste of a dungeon, though.
I honestly just couldn't think of a logical reason for it not to mean that she just gave it to them. No other interpretation even occurred to me on reading that sentence. This is especially true given their presentation on the whole 'End of the World' thing, but I feel is the case even without that.
I mean...Captain Whark has, per her stats, about Int 18 and Wis 16, why in the world would she only give it to them if they broke into her vault? That makes no sense at all, in the most 'perverse incentives' sort of way (since they would then be tempted to take other things), as compared to giving them it as a reward in exchange for, say, stopping Necerion, possibly warning her of Kasbeel's treachery, and giving her all Necerion's stuff. It's frankly insane behavior to force people to break into your vault in order for you to give them something from it, and while Whark is clearly a bit eccentric, there are no indications her eccentricity is anywhere close to that extreme.
And even with this interpretation, the PCs still need to do the whole dungeon unless they spot Necerion at some point (something more than a bit unlikely unless you either use tracking in the first room or have a Rogue with Sense the Unseen), so only specific scenarios result in dungeon skipping even if you go with this version.
Looking back on it after taking the survey, I doubt that this was the intent of the writers, but it's a playtest and I have to go with what they actually wrote, and it makes a lot more logical sense to boot.
I do agree that it's a waste of a good dungeon, but on the other hand it almost certainly allows us to finish Chapter 7 before the end of the year (something that would've been a tad dicey otherwise), and the PCs got to go out on a high note by curb stomping Necerion (which they enjoyed), so it's not all bad.
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What with the Nemesis of Necerion being aware that he's a spellcaster I would be rather surprised that any Party looking for the guy would be fooled for Long by Disappearance. "See Invisibility" is a Level 2 spell and they are supposed to be infiltrators, "Sense the Unseen" is one of the few interesting feat Options for Rogues at that Level, and even without that Necerions Stealth is not that impressive to make him hard to find with a Seek Action.
See Invisibility does also work if you use it, but you have to use it. And yeah, the adventure just seems to assume PCs won't look for him (which, to be fair, many appear not to). His Stealth is a +26, which is actually quite high (probably due to standard monster errors), and would have as high a Stealth as most PC Perception scores even without such errors.
But I am arguing semantics here - as I said, good call, I was just in some other discussions about this Scenario and no one there seemed to think Whark would just Hand out the book. Her behaviour description is so bizarre that I have a hard time gauging what the intent was. I mean, she basically sends the characters to their death by Kraken even on a critical success on Diplomacy, so I have no idea what her intent is.
She sends them to stop an invader into her vault. Not telling them how to actually get past the final defense actually seems reasonable enough to me, given that she just met them. I presumed that her intent was that they stop Necerion before they get to that point.
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What with the Nemesis of Necerion being aware that he's a spellcaster I would be rather surprised that any Party looking for the guy would be fooled for Long by Disappearance. "See Invisibility" is a Level 2 spell and they are supposed to be infiltrators, "Sense the Unseen" is one of the few interesting feat Options for Rogues at that Level, and even without that Necerions Stealth is not that impressive to make him hard to find with a Seek Action.See Invisibility does also work if you use it, but you have to use it. And yeah, the adventure just seems to assume PCs won't look for him (which, to be fair, many appear not to). His Stealth is a +26, which is actually quite high (probably due to standard monster errors), and would have as high a Stealth as most PC Perception scores even without such errors.
I doubt it would, actually, since he also knows mind blank and would probably cast it most mornings, I would assume. I certainly intend to have it active on him for the whole adventure.
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I doubt it would, actually, since he also knows mind blank and would probably cast it most mornings, I would assume. I certainly intend to have it active on him for the whole adventure.
Y'know, you're right. The adventure doesn't say so, but that makes more sense than anything else.
So that's right back to tracking or Sense The Unseen in order to catch him out.
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Necerion also only has 2 castings of disappearance available (1 if he's cast Mind Blank), which last 10 min. This can be a factor too.
In my game, he hadn't cast Mind Blank, but used the Disappearance hiding from the PCs per the module. The PCs then took a 10 min rest to treat the wounds they'd received from the spectral trap & spikes opposite the portal doors before crossing the water. So he ended up having to cast his 2nd to follow them across the water and to & through the Mirrors.
The PCs then proceeded to spend 10 min using the glyph of warding from the rogue's ring of maniacal devices at the entrance to the Vault: they'd convinced themselves Necerion was within, and thought that might slow him down on the way back out.
Not only did that reduce Necerion to sneaking mundanely after them as they entered the Vault (though as DMW points out, he is pretty good at that), but he also set off the glyph, blowing his cover completely - and drawing the ire of the kraken.
The PCs got away in the confusion.