The new guide (10.0) makes player purchases *worse*.


Pathfinder Society

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Liberty's Edge 5/5

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Starfinder Superscriber

Background: according to the rules before now, any purchases players made at the end of a scenario had to be completed at the table. As written, the GM was not supposed to sign the chronicle sheet until it was completely filled out, including all the accounting at the right. A few regions claim to have followed that, but I've never seen it first hand (at least since I tried to do it myself as a callow newbie 6 years ago). Standard practice has been that the GM fills out all the grey boxes (requiring initialing) on the chronicle sheet, writes at least the PC's PFS # at the top (and maybe also player/character name), and gives players a signed chronicle sheet. Players then at their leisure make purchases, update their ITSes, and finish the white-box accounting at the right of the chronicle sheet.

Evidently, finally, after many years, the PFS team finally heard and responded to the feedback that the rules as written were impractical and largely ignored. Unfortunately, the changes made in response to that end up with a system that makes no sense.

According to version 10.0 of the Guide, there are two ways to complete a chronicle sheet. Either (a) the player completes the entire sheet, and the GM signs it when the player is done, just as the rules said before. Or, (b) the player wants to make purchases in between games, so the GM does not sign the sheet. (Indeed, as written, the GM doesn't even put in the event name and event code.) Instead, the next GM is supposed to sign the chronicle sheet once the player has completed purchases and accounting.

In other words, if most players do purchases between scenarios, then every session will start with the GM looking at and signing the disparate chronicle sheets for most or all of the players' previous game.

If it sounds like this makes no sense, that's because it doesn't. But that's what the rules say. I'm pretty sure that what they say right now isn't what was intended.

Analysis that the rules say what I claim.:

Look at Pages 15-16, "Filling out a Chronicle Sheet."

Let's suppose it's the end of a scenario, and you're filling out the sheet for the scenario just completed.

In Step 1:

Quote:
If the player made purchases after the end of his previous session and recorded them on a previous Chronicle sheet, perform any necessary tasks from Step 8–10 to finish filling the previous Chronicle sheet. Resolve any necessary steps related to these purchases on the previous Chronicle sheet prior to completing this step.

OK, so the GM is supposed to look at the player's last Chronicle sheet. In the rules as written, they were supposed to do this anyway, as it's necessary to verify the math of the new chronicle sheet. With very few exceptions, nobody ever did that, of course.

But, dig deeper into what it means to resolve any necessary steps.

In Step 8:

Quote:
Note: players may purchase items between scenarios. (see Step 11). In this case, players should resolve steps 9 and 10 with the GM of their next session before play begins.

OK, first, you're supposed to read ahead to step 11:

Quote:
Step 11: To allow players time to decide on purchases between sessions, they may postpone recording bought items until the start of their next session. To minimize the amount of table time spent on Chronicle sheet maintenance, players who chose this option must arrive at their next session with a list of what they wish to purchase, the cost of these items, and preliminary totals for their GM to review.

Fine. If GMs are following the rules, players should come prepared to make it as quick as possible. Seems reasonable. So, let's go back to where we were in step 8. It says steps 9 and 10 will be resolved with the next GM. So, OK, if the player isn't going to do all their purchases now, we're done. (The GM hasn't signed the chronicle sheet yet, but steps 9 and 10 are supposed to be resolved with the next GM, so we're done.)

What are the steps 9 and 10 that are supposed to be resolved at the next table? Most relevantly, in Step 10:

Quote:
Once you’re satisfied with the information on the Chronicle sheet, fill in the gray box at the bottom of the sheet and sign (W).

The grey box at the bottom (labelled W on the image) is where you fill in the event code, event name, date, GM PFS# and signature. Indeed, it explicitly says in step 10 that here is where you sign. But, it explicitly says in step 8 that if the player isn't done purchasing at the end of the session, it's the next GM that should do step 10.

So, the rules clearly say that unless the player is a rare one who completes all purchases at the table, then the GM that writes down an event code and signs a chronicle sheet is not the GM who ran the adventure for which the chronicle sheet was issued, but whatever GM the player happens to have next.

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

I'd just go with the intent and have the DM initial purchases on the previous sheet and leave the rest alone.

Honestly the measure seems a little redundant. The items bought and gold totals on the two sheets need to add up.

Hmmm... its also a little hard to do online.

Sczarni 5/5 ⦵⦵

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Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I believe the intent is to incrementally make PFS 1.0 less and less desirable to play and GM so that people are more willing to transition to either SFS or PFS 2.0.

It worked for me already. I haven't enjoyed any of my recent PFS events, but find SFS adventures and Thurston's involvement in the Forums to be a welcome refreshment.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Great Lakes aka TwilightKnight

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Sorry, I have to stop you right there. There is no secret plan or conspiracy to make people stop playing PFS1 other than the obvious issue that it will not receive new content after this season. Let’s not create anything Machiavellian.

Shadow Lodge 5/5

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Nefreet wrote:
...but find SFS adventures and Thurston's involvement in the Forums to be a welcome refreshment.

Good. Do that.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Venture-Agent, Rhode Island—Lincoln aka Upaynao

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Bob Jonquet wrote:
Let’s not create anything Machiavellian.

I'll pack my cloning kit away.

Scarab Sages 5/5

I don't recall which season, but it was 6 or 7, where the rules for purchases were changed. You did not need to fill out the entire chronicle sheet before the end of a session. Purchases could be made between sessions, and you just had to show the new GM what purchases you made. No actual signature or initial was required.

This new change sounds bad. Really badly conceived and written.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Starfinder Superscriber

I don't think there has ever been a version of the Guide that didn't have the GM signing only after the whole chronicle sheet is filled out. You are probably remembering the change around then that said you no longer had to itemize your purchases on the chronicle sheet, only in the ITS. But, it didn't change anything about filling out the sheets vs. GM signature.

I believe the conception behind the current change was to go to the system you describe: purchases between sessions OK, show the new GM what you purchased, no signature required. So, I think it was well conceived, but the writing ended up with something different.

Sczarni 5/5 ⦵⦵

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Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Bob Jonquet wrote:
There is no secret plan or conspiracy to make people stop playing PFS1

It's a fairly common (and never admitted) business practice.

You don't want to ruin the release of your new product by making its predecessor more desirable.

You want to highlight the improvements of the new while bringing awareness to the flaws of the old.

Scarab Sages 5/5

rknop wrote:

I don't think there has ever been a version of the Guide that didn't have the GM signing only after the whole chronicle sheet is filled out. You are probably remembering the change around then that said you no longer had to itemize your purchases on the chronicle sheet, only in the ITS. But, it didn't change anything about filling out the sheets vs. GM signature.

I believe the conception behind the current change was to go to the system you describe: purchases between sessions OK, show the new GM what you purchased, no signature required. So, I think it was well conceived, but the writing ended up with something different.

No, I know I'm remembering correctly, because if you'll recall, I was the lead on redesigning the Guide for the Season 8 Guide. One of the things that I wanted to make sure happened, was the numbered explanation of how to fill out a chronicle sheet to be overhauled to reflect how things actually worked. And overhauled to be consistent with other sections of the guide. Essentially, that section of the guide was simply obsolete, not followed, and did not reflect the rules elsewhere in the guide. There was a paragraph elsewhere in the guide at the time, that explained that you could make purchases between scenarios and just show your ITS to your new GM. The new GM just had to make sure the numbers on your previous chronicle looked right and that purchases were legal, but they weren't required to actually fill out the GM section of the chronicle sheet and sign the entire sheet.

EDIT: And now I can't find it. So it may have been an FAQ or something. In any case, I am 100% positive that the rule for how to adjudicate, track, and handle purchases was allowed to happen once a player had gone home and all the new GM needed to do whats verify, but no initial or signature was really necessary.

Silver Crusade 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Pennsylvania—Pittsburgh aka Terminalmancer

It sure looks like the intent and the text don't match. If there will be another version of the guide, maybe it's something the team can get fixed in that version.

2/5

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Nefreet wrote:
Bob Jonquet wrote:
There is no secret plan or conspiracy to make people stop playing PFS1

It's a fairly common (and never admitted) business practice.

You don't want to ruin the release of your new product by making its predecessor more desirable.

You want to highlight the improvements of the new while bringing awareness to the flaws of the old.

In this theory, though, the new would suffer the same record keeping problems as the old.

Scarab Sages 5/5

Alex Wreschnig wrote:
It sure looks like the intent and the text don't match. If there will be another version of the guide, maybe it's something the team can get fixed in that version.

They could fix it right now and republish it. It shouldn't take a bunch of time to do so, and would be worth maybe the hour or two it would take.

But I doubt we see another Guide for PFS1, since PFS2 starts in 2019.

Shadow Lodge 5/5

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RGG v7 pg38 wrote:
Once you’re satisfied with the information on the Chronicle sheet, fill in the gray box at the bottom of the sheet and sign (W).

Silver Crusade 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Pennsylvania—Pittsburgh aka Terminalmancer

Tallow wrote:
rknop wrote:

I don't think there has ever been a version of the Guide that didn't have the GM signing only after the whole chronicle sheet is filled out. You are probably remembering the change around then that said you no longer had to itemize your purchases on the chronicle sheet, only in the ITS. But, it didn't change anything about filling out the sheets vs. GM signature.

I believe the conception behind the current change was to go to the system you describe: purchases between sessions OK, show the new GM what you purchased, no signature required. So, I think it was well conceived, but the writing ended up with something different.

No, I know I'm remembering correctly, because if you'll recall, I was the lead on redesigning the Guide for the Season 8 Guide. One of the things that I wanted to make sure happened, was the numbered explanation of how to fill out a chronicle sheet to be overhauled to reflect how things actually worked. And overhauled to be consistent with other sections of the guide. Essentially, that section of the guide was simply obsolete, not followed, and did not reflect the rules elsewhere in the guide. There was a paragraph elsewhere in the guide at the time, that explained that you could make purchases between scenarios and just show your ITS to your new GM. The new GM just had to make sure the numbers on your previous chronicle looked right and that purchases were legal, but they weren't required to actually fill out the GM section of the chronicle sheet and sign the entire sheet.

EDIT: And now I can't find it. So it may have been an FAQ or something. In any case, I am 100% positive that the rule for how to adjudicate, track, and handle purchases was allowed to happen once a player had gone home and all the new GM needed to do whats verify, but no initial or signature was really necessary.

A Mike Brock forum post might be another option as to where it was hiding.

As far as the guides themselves go, the rule doesn't appear in guide 1.1 but does show up in 2.0.1, with the current structure (ten steps) appearing in version 4. I don't think it's changed significantly until this edition, if you consider the addition of an 11th step significant.

Paizo Employee 5/5 Organized Play Lead Developer

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Point 1: This is curious. I’ll need to check this more closely once I’m at the office and can compare a few files side by side. The intention here was, as noted, to make this Chronicle sheet process better match actual practice, and it sounds like there might be a snag in the technical language.

Point 2: No, we are not attempting to worsen the Pathfinder Society’s first edition experience. Members of this team have been working on Pathfinder Society for these years because it’s what we love, and we want to see it thrive. Over time, we expect communities’ focus will shift from the first edition to the second, yet we’ve already noted ongoing event support for the former even come August 2019. I suspect that viewing any mistake as an attack on the current campaign will provide everyone involved an unfortunate experience, particularly when there so much more good stuff coming in Season 10.

Scarab Sages 5/5

Alex Wreschnig wrote:
Tallow wrote:
rknop wrote:

I don't think there has ever been a version of the Guide that didn't have the GM signing only after the whole chronicle sheet is filled out. You are probably remembering the change around then that said you no longer had to itemize your purchases on the chronicle sheet, only in the ITS. But, it didn't change anything about filling out the sheets vs. GM signature.

I believe the conception behind the current change was to go to the system you describe: purchases between sessions OK, show the new GM what you purchased, no signature required. So, I think it was well conceived, but the writing ended up with something different.

No, I know I'm remembering correctly, because if you'll recall, I was the lead on redesigning the Guide for the Season 8 Guide. One of the things that I wanted to make sure happened, was the numbered explanation of how to fill out a chronicle sheet to be overhauled to reflect how things actually worked. And overhauled to be consistent with other sections of the guide. Essentially, that section of the guide was simply obsolete, not followed, and did not reflect the rules elsewhere in the guide. There was a paragraph elsewhere in the guide at the time, that explained that you could make purchases between scenarios and just show your ITS to your new GM. The new GM just had to make sure the numbers on your previous chronicle looked right and that purchases were legal, but they weren't required to actually fill out the GM section of the chronicle sheet and sign the entire sheet.

EDIT: And now I can't find it. So it may have been an FAQ or something. In any case, I am 100% positive that the rule for how to adjudicate, track, and handle purchases was allowed to happen once a player had gone home and all the new GM needed to do whats verify, but no initial or signature was really necessary.

A Mike Brock forum post might be another option as to where it was hiding.

As far as the guides themselves go, the rule doesn't appear...

It is possible. I just pulled up my Season 6 and 7 guide to compare, and neither has the language I was looking for.

3/5

But... but... this is the Year of the Ten! Isn't it supposed to all be about tin helmets and paranoid conspiracies? ;)

Thanks to rknop for pointing out a potential drafting problem, and to John Compton for the quick reply and commitment to look at. Hopefully, there will be an update as to the results of the review (yay or nay).


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Surely the simple approach is:
End of session A - GM fills in necessary stuff, totals are added up, Chronicle A is signed.
Player decides on purchases between sessions. Do not spend more gold than you currently have. (and keep some for expenses on the next mission)
End of session B - GM fills in necessary stuff, totals are added up, including cost of between session purchases, Chronicle B is signed.
Player decides on purchases between sessions....

Repeat until retirement or death.

Scarab Sages 5/5

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Andy Brown wrote:

Surely the simple approach is:

End of session A - GM fills in necessary stuff, totals are added up, Chronicle A is signed.
Player decides on purchases between sessions. Do not spend more gold than you currently have. (and keep some for expenses on the next mission)
End of session B - GM fills in necessary stuff, totals are added up, including cost of between session purchases, Chronicle B is signed.
Player decides on purchases between sessions....

Repeat until retirement or death.

This pretty much. You treat the "between session" purchases as purchases on the new chronicle sheet.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

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Starfinder Superscriber

Tallow, that's the old process that you describe. That's the one that almost nobody followed. In that process, the GM was not supposed to sign a chronicle sheet until it was completely filled out.

This is not the practice that most of the community follows. What most of us do is fill out the GM sections (grey boxes) of a sheet and pass them out, allowing the player to do all the accounting and such at his leisure later. Players usually do put between-scenario purchases on their last chronicle sheet, unless it's something they decide to buy as they're sitting down at the table for the next game.

A key difference is that there is no back-and-forth between player and GM. If the GM can't sign off on the chronicle sheet until all accounting is filled out, then he has to pass out one with most of the grey boxes filled, but the sheet unsigned, and then wait for the player to complete the accounting and turn the sheet back to him so that he can look it over and sign it.

I believe that the changes were trying to make the rules closer to what is actually practiced in most places.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Great Lakes aka TwilightKnight

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I think if we all asked for the most recent chronicle on the character when completing the newest one it would encourage people to maintain their records properly. Maybe even ask for it at the beginning. No one likes paperwork, but keeping it up to date is required by the rules. Maybe if you couldn’t play your character because you choose not to keep your journal up to date it would encourage more people to do so. It’s really no different than a home game’s expectation that you keep your character sheet up to date and track your expendables. The only difference is you are doing your purchases off camera instead of in game with the GM’s oversight.
I say this knowing that most of my characters are not currently prepared for an audit

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Starfinder Superscriber

I wonder how widespread that is. I've played more than GMed, which means more than 150 tables of Pathfinder Society. I think (with one general exception) that in all but a few games I had my characters ready for an audit when I got to the table. I would sometimes delay updating a character, but would do it before a gameday was coming up where I might play that character. Perhaps I'm a weird outlier?

(The one general exception: I didn't always have everything printed out. Nowadays, that's allowed. I do have computer files of everything. My chronicle sheet PDFs even have a table of contents so you can see what scenarios the characters has credit for, and jump to them. But, there was a time when you were supposed to have printed out documentation of everything, and about 1/4 of the time in person I only had it in electronic format.)

(For online games, I assumed that the printed version was less useful than the electronic version. And, indeed, in very early days when I tried to follow the rules, before I'd realized that everybody else was much more blasé about chronicle sheets, I would insist on online players sending me electronic versions of their sheets before the game started. I gave up on that years ago, and I'm glad I did; it was too much hassle for everybody, and pissed some potential players off.)

Sczarni 5/5 ⦵⦵

Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Bob Jonquet wrote:
No one likes paperwork

Beg your pardon?

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

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Nefreet wrote:
Bob Jonquet wrote:
No one likes paperwork
Beg your pardon?

Looks guiltily around a pile of half eaten homework

Scarab Sages 5/5

rknop wrote:

Tallow, that's the old process that you describe. That's the one that almost nobody followed. In that process, the GM was not supposed to sign a chronicle sheet until it was completely filled out.

This is not the practice that most of the community follows. What most of us do is fill out the GM sections (grey boxes) of a sheet and pass them out, allowing the player to do all the accounting and such at his leisure later. Players usually do put between-scenario purchases on their last chronicle sheet, unless it's something they decide to buy as they're sitting down at the table for the next game.

A key difference is that there is no back-and-forth between player and GM. If the GM can't sign off on the chronicle sheet until all accounting is filled out, then he has to pass out one with most of the grey boxes filled, but the sheet unsigned, and then wait for the player to complete the accounting and turn the sheet back to him so that he can look it over and sign it.

I believe that the changes were trying to make the rules closer to what is actually practiced in most places.

I'm confused. I don't think I said what you think I said, but now I'm confused as to what you are actually saying I said or what you think things mean.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

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Starfinder Superscriber

You said:

Quote:
You treat the "between session" purchases as purchases on the new chronicle sheet.

Here's what I took that to mean. Consider the very first game a character plays. At the end of the game, he gets the chronicle sheet, fully filled out and signed.

Before the second game, the players decides to buy some stuff. On the second chronicle sheet, #2 for this character, he'll put the cost of the stuff he bought between sessions. The GM can then sign off on a fully filled-out chronicle sheet.

That's what I took what you said to mean: purchases between game n and game n+1 get accounted for on n+1's chronicle sheet.

This is not standard practice. Standard practice is to put your between-session purchases on the chronicle sheet for the last game you had (unless you fall horribly behind on your paperwork). If you keep your paperwork up to date, you show up to the new session with all your between-session purchases accounted for, and your current gold amount at the bottom of the chronicle sheet before the session about to start.

(Sometimes people will decide to buy stuff after they sit down at the table, planning to put them on the sheet they'll get at the end of the table. I wouldn't really call those "between session" purchases; they're purchases made at the new game. Between session purchases are the ones that you sit down and think about when you're not at the game table, and that you then account for on your previous chronicle sheet.)

Scarab Sages 5/5

rknop wrote:

You said:

Quote:
You treat the "between session" purchases as purchases on the new chronicle sheet.

Here's what I took that to mean. Consider the very first game a character plays. At the end of the game, he gets the chronicle sheet, fully filled out and signed.

Before the second game, the players decides to buy some stuff. On the second chronicle sheet, #2 for this character, he'll put the cost of the stuff he bought between sessions. The GM can then sign off on a fully filled-out chronicle sheet.

That's what I took what you said to mean: purchases between game n and game n+1 get accounted for on n+1's chronicle sheet.

This is not standard practice. Standard practice is to put your between-session purchases on the chronicle sheet for the last game you had (unless you fall horribly behind on your paperwork). If you keep your paperwork up to date, you show up to the new session with all your between-session purchases accounted for, and your current gold amount at the bottom of the chronicle sheet before the session about to start.

(Sometimes people will decide to buy stuff after they sit down at the table, planning to put them on the sheet they'll get at the end of the table. I wouldn't really call those "between session" purchases; they're purchases made at the new game. Between session purchases are the ones that you sit down and think about when you're not at the game table, and that you then account for on your previous chronicle sheet.)

Right, but that comment was replying to someone's comment in what they thought a good new process should be.

I know what the wording of the process is trying to do, is both codify how its actually done, but also allow for some level of oversight. Unless they want to rewrite the guide to just trust players are going to do what they are supposed to do, with zero oversight (which is common practice, and not something I'm opposed to as I practiced that), then they have to write some level of oversight into the rule.

Writing so that a future GM doesn't have to sign a past GM's paperwork seems to be the best compromise between action practice and writing oversight into the rule.

Liberty's Edge 3/5 Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha

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I guess I was not following the old guide for chronicles as closely as I thought I was.

I have, from the the very start of my PFS career, recorded purchases made in between scenarios on the next session, not on the last one.

It does not make sense to record purchases made between scenarios on the prior chronicle. I am interested in understanding why this is the preferred method.

Additionally, as a GM, I am not comfortable handing an unsigned chronicle to someone because they want to make purchases between scenarios. I am equally uncomfortable signing a chronicle for an adventure that I didn't run.

This is not a good process.

As a side note, I have lost a star!!!

5/5 Venture-Agent, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East aka Pirate Rob

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Gary Bush wrote:


It does not make sense to record purchases made between scenarios on the prior chronicle. I am interested in understanding why this is the preferred method.

So I've received a chronicle sheet, I've got all my starting values and my new gold earned and everything signed and initialed.

I take that sheet home, do some shopping, write my expenditures in the gold spent box and then write the new total. I show up for the next adventures with a fully completed chronicle sheet that accurately reflects my gear and money.

--

If instead I have to record that on my next chronicle sheet I need to track that expenditure somewhere else, introducing an extra avenue for error.

Additionally my most recent chronicle sheet is no longer an accurate record of my gold.

Liberty's Edge 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Martinsville aka thaX

I read this and tried to do a double take.

I am of the mind that between sessions purchases will go on the next chronicle sheet instead of the current one. (so the current one will be complete and the ITS will show purchases upcoming on the next one.)

The only exception to this is a few multi part scenarios that do not allow purchases between sessions if the player is going to play them back to back.

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

Gary Bush wrote:


It does not make sense to record purchases made between scenarios on the prior chronicle. I am interested in understanding why this is the preferred method.

To go shopping and record it I need

My gold total
Time to comp shop
Somewhere to write and record the purchase and the amount of gold it is

The only time you have that without doing the work twice is in between sessions with the last sessions chronicle.

Quote:
Additionally, as a GM, I am not comfortable handing an unsigned chronicle to someone because they want to make purchases between scenarios. I am equally uncomfortable signing a chronicle for an adventure that I didn't run.

It shouldn't come to that. The exact wording aside, you sign chronicles for games you run, You'd sign/initial a loot list from the last chronicle (I don't expect to see that followed very often online either. Passing 6 chronicles back and forth is a bit of a pain with file management)

Sczarni 5/5 ⦵⦵

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Starfinder Charter Superscriber

GMs don't initial the "Total Gold" box at the bottom right. That's solely for the player to fill out.

So I play a session, get a Chronicle, take it home. The GM already filled in how much gold I earned. I now put how much I'm starting with, how much I'm spending, and what my final total is, making sure to fill out my ITS using that Chronicle #.

I then show up to my next session with a fully up-to-date character.

I can't imagine doing all of this while sitting down to a game. Why would that be preferred?

Grand Lodge 5/5 Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

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I would like to see chronicles in PFS2E to have XP/PP/GP listed with no other boxes, allowing all math to be done on the ITS.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

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Starfinder Superscriber

I agree with TOZ here. Separate the accounting from the chronicle records. Either an expanded ITS that has XP and PP as well as GP. Or, tracking sheets that players are responsible for between chronicle sheets.

Make the GM at the table during the rush of "OMG the store is closing" at the end of the game only responsible for verifying the things that are germane to the scenario the GM just ran. The players are responsible for the accounting.

Sczarni 5/5 ⦵⦵

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Starfinder Charter Superscriber
rknop wrote:
Make the GM...only responsible for verifying the things that are germane to the scenario the GM just ran. The players are responsible for the accounting.

This is how it is now, and as far as I've experienced, how it's always been.

With the exception of the occasional audit. But that shouldn't be done at the end of the game anyways.


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Bob Jonquet wrote:
No one likes paperwork

...I do. In some ways, it's what drew me to Pathfinder Society. I like the crisp feeling of forms filled neatly out, every box carefully filled out and initialed.

(No, I'm not joking.)

The Exchange 4/5

Bob Jonquet wrote:

I think if we all asked for the most recent chronicle on the character when completing the newest one it would encourage people to maintain their records properly. Maybe even ask for it at the beginning. No one likes paperwork, but keeping it up to date is required by the rules. Maybe if you couldn’t play your character because you choose not to keep your journal up to date it would encourage more people to do so. It’s really no different than a home game’s expectation that you keep your character sheet up to date and track your expendables. The only difference is you are doing your purchases off camera instead of in game with the GM’s oversight.

I say this knowing that most of my characters are not currently prepared for an audit

OH MY

Grand Lodge 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Great Lakes aka TwilightKnight

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For me the process that makes the most sense and honors the spirit of verification is to have the player produce their most recent chronicle at the start of the event and I verify it is complete. They enter the starting gold, XP, and Fame on the new chronicle sheet. We play the game. Afterwards, I add the rewards and complete the GM section at the bottom. They then take that home and make purchases as needed and finalize their numbers to be used for the start of the next session. Easy-peasy. And for those that may say spoilers, don’t read the chronicle. If it’s a problem, I can easily fold the sheet so just the record column is showing so you can complete the starting values.

Over time, if the local group all adhere to the same, or at least a similar methodology, we will never have an issue with incomplete chronicle histories and we can avoid the uncomfortable situation where the character’s journal is not updated and the GM declares the player will not be able to use said character.

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

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Bob Jonquet wrote:
For me the process that makes the most sense and honors the spirit of verification is to have the player produce their most recent chronicle at the start of the event and I verify it is complete.

The problem here is that you hand the player the chronicle sheet, which can be spoilerific.

Grand Lodge 5/5 ⦵⦵⦵ Venture-Captain, Online—PbP aka Hmm

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Steven Schopmeyer wrote:
I would like to see chronicles in PFS2E to have XP/PP/GP listed with no other boxes, allowing all math to be done on the ITS.

I agree with TOZ and RKnop. I was really hoping that the Season 10 guide would reflect how chronicles are actually filled out* in 95% of lodges worldwide.

If we’re giving feedback on the guide, can I request a more readable font for the Table of Contents? Oh my eyes!

Hmm

3/5 ⦵⦵ Venture-Agent, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East

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I definitely put my vote in for between-game purchases going on the prior chronicle, as Pirate Rob describes. Many of my characters go months between being played, and I don't want to have to track my total expenditures on some additional sheet so I can fill it out at the next game. I want to record it on the previous sheet, total everything up, and know exactly how much prestige and gold I have at the start of the next game.

Plus, given that the new chronicle starts with the gold earned in that adventure, it feels weird to list the stuff I bought before I earned that gold there.

I also don't really think that it's critical that a GM sign off on purchases? So much of this game is honor system already, and if you're skeptical that a player really has purchased a particular item, you'll ask to see the ITS anyway. To me, the GM is signing off on what was earned during that adventure.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Great Lakes aka TwilightKnight

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Bob Jonquet wrote:
For me the process that makes the most sense and honors the spirit of verification is to have the player produce their most recent chronicle at the start of the event and I verify it is complete.
The problem here is that you hand the player the chronicle sheet, which can be spoilerific.

Which is why I specifically said, “And for those that may say spoilers, don’t read the chronicle. If it’s a problem, I can easily fold the sheet so just the record column is showing so you can complete the starting values.

Dark Archive 4/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Online—VTT

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Bob Jonquet wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Bob Jonquet wrote:
For me the process that makes the most sense and honors the spirit of verification is to have the player produce their most recent chronicle at the start of the event and I verify it is complete.
The problem here is that you hand the player the chronicle sheet, which can be spoilerific.
Which is why I specifically said, “And for those that may say spoilers, don’t read the chronicle. If it’s a problem, I can easily fold the sheet so just the record column is showing so you can complete the starting values.

That definitely solves the issue for irl games, but there is a huge and rapidly growing group of thousands of players who play online using the various virtual tabletop programs or play-by-post, if we have to email the player the chronicle beforehand for them to fill out sections it's not really possible to block them from seeing things unless we start cut and pasting the boon half of a chronicle sheet each time or such, which doesn't seem like a reasonable or realistic way to go about it.

Whilst, as has been requested, we follow the process as strictly as possible online we very frequently hear how frustrating it is for GMs, especially those who play both in 'meat space' and online, since from the information we get back irl chronicles are very rarely filled out beyond the grey boxes by many GMs. If we could get everyone on the same page and cut out as much of the extraneous paperwork as possible for GMs who have no interest in it (those who do should be welcome to coordinate with their players and fill everything out for them if both desire) then I suspect everyone would end up happier and thus more likely to continue GMing, the Season 10 guide seems it should certainly be an opportunity for this.

Liberty's Edge 3/5 Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha

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Kate Baker wrote:

I definitely put my vote in for between-game purchases going on the prior chronicle, as Pirate Rob describes. Many of my characters go months between being played, and I don't want to have to track my total expenditures on some additional sheet so I can fill it out at the next game. I want to record it on the previous sheet, total everything up, and know exactly how much prestige and gold I have at the start of the next game.

Plus, given that the new chronicle starts with the gold earned in that adventure, it feels weird to list the stuff I bought before I earned that gold there.

I also don't really think that it's critical that a GM sign off on purchases? So much of this game is honor system already, and if you're skeptical that a player really has purchased a particular item, you'll ask to see the ITS anyway. To me, the GM is signing off on what was earned during that adventure.

I put a sticky note with my character so the next time I play I know what I got inbetween. I only use the gold I have available at the end of the scenario. I record my purchases on the new chronicle. Yes I still write my purchases on the chronicle as well as on an ITS.

This new process is confusing and not better.

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

Bob Jonquet wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Bob Jonquet wrote:
For me the process that makes the most sense and honors the spirit of verification is to have the player produce their most recent chronicle at the start of the event and I verify it is complete.
The problem here is that you hand the player the chronicle sheet, which can be spoilerific.
Which is why I specifically said, “And for those that may say spoilers, don’t read the chronicle. If it’s a problem, I can easily fold the sheet so just the record column is showing so you can complete the starting values.

Doh my bad

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

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Gary Bush wrote:


I put a sticky note with my character so the next time I play I know what I got inbetween. I only use the gold I have available at the end of the scenario. I record my purchases on the new chronicle. Yes I still write my purchases on the chronicle as well as on an ITS.

This new process is confusing and not better.

If you like doing it that way you can do it that way. Nothing stops you from buying stuff at the start of the adventure like when the venture captain says "Hello I'm sheilda heidemarch..." you can start picking up breath of life scrolls.


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Kate Baker wrote:

I definitely put my vote in for between-game purchases going on the prior chronicle, as Pirate Rob describes. Many of my characters go months between being played, and I don't want to have to track my total expenditures on some additional sheet so I can fill it out at the next game. I want to record it on the previous sheet, total everything up, and know exactly how much prestige and gold I have at the start of the next game.

Plus, given that the new chronicle starts with the gold earned in that adventure, it feels weird to list the stuff I bought before I earned that gold there.

I also don't really think that it's critical that a GM sign off on purchases? So much of this game is honor system already, and if you're skeptical that a player really has purchased a particular item, you'll ask to see the ITS anyway. To me, the GM is signing off on what was earned during that adventure.

bolding mine.

This is really another pointer that it'd be better to put all the accounting on the ITS

Sovereign Court 4/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden aka Ascalaphus

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I don't think it's good to try to nail down that all purchases happen either before, after or in between scenarios; sometimes (quite often!) you make purchases in the middle of scenarios. Sometimes even with money you gained in the middle of the scenario.

I also don't see the big problem here - the GM is not initialling money spent or left over, just how much was gained.

When I put my signature on a chronicle sheet, I'm signing off on the following:


  • The player showed up at a certain event, with an event code, date, and GM with PFS-#.
  • Played a certain tier (in/up/down)
  • Achieved some mission successes resulting in boons, XP, prestige and gold + day job.

I'm not signing off on other things:


  • Whatever happened on previous chronicle sheets for adventures I had nothing to do with.
  • Whether the starting values for XP, prestige and gold the player fills in are correct.
  • How much someone spent.
  • How much was left over afterwards.

These things should also be correct; and when in doubt or just as general practice, characters should be audited now and then to find and correct mistakes. But I can sign the chronicle just fine even if all those fields are still blank when we're being hustled out of the closing venue.

I do agree with Bob Jonquet to some degree that it's good practice to ask to see the previous chronicle sheet verify that it's completely filled in though. It's far easier to prevent mistakes if you do bookkeeping on time instead of waiting five sessions.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Great Lakes aka TwilightKnight

Richard Lowe wrote:
online

Online gaming is different enough from “live” gaming that we should just accept it and stop trying to treat them as the same. What logistical rules we use for one are simply not going to work for the other. I rarely if ever play online so I tend not really to think about it when I formulate solutions in my head and I honestly don’t know the best way to handle it, so I’ll leave the specifics of that format to the experts like you and the other online players. I think my description above is closer to how chronicle management is/should be. It allows the freedom of between session purchasing while still keeping to at least a modicum of the spirit of auditing that has been ever present. Audits are rare and should be, but by checking the most recent chronicle we vastly increase the chances the paperwork is up to date without heavy-handledly impacting events with limited time availability.

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