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When it comes to online games, when I run them, I have players fill out a Sign in sheet that contains all of the data I would need to fill out most of a chronicle sheet as part of the sign in process.
A really neat trick is if you put them in the order that they are on the top of the sheet you can just copy/paste it over and hit space a few times to fill it out.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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(raises hand) It is an amazingly bad idea, that the GM signing a Chronicle Sheet would not be the GM who ran the adventure (and filled out the tracking information on Paizo.com).
Simple, hypothetical:
On March 31st, Player Paul plays an adventure and his Character Charlene the Cavalier earns her 5th Chronicle Sheet. Let's say that Paul leaves without completing the sheet, and without a GM signature.
Let's say that GM forgets to record the information about that session in a timely manner. Paul has no record of that GM's number or name.
On April 2nd, Paul GMs scenario 10-20 and earns a Chronicle Sheet. If he assigns the sheet to Charlene, does he need to complete the inter-game purchases, finish the 5th Chronicle Sheet and fill it out before he adds the 6th Chronicle Sheet? Or can he have several incomplete sheets, that the next GM would complete and sign?
When Victor the Venture Officer audits Charlene's sheet, is there going to be any way to tell that Paul can still play 10-20 for credit?
Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Martinsville
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I would hope that the signing of the chronicle would be before the player leaves the table, and that the inference of waiting until next session to sign the chronicle if the player waits to purchase items is a misprint.
For me, it is easier to trust the player to use the gold available and make purchases between sessions rather than try to force them to make those decisions at the table as the slot is finishing and everyone is in a rush to pack up and go on their way.
Putting purchases on the next chronicle allows for the current chronicle to be filled out and finished, with in session purchases as well as those previous between session purchases, and have a total to work with for the next round of purchases being made. Noting in session purchases and adding them to the total of the previous purchases should not be hard to do.
This also should standardize the Pathfinder Math Game and set a routine for the player to use for the record keeping for the characters.
Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East
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At my local stores, I tried to enforce the old system. When filling out chronicles, each time I'd ask "did you buy anything?" If they did, I'd ask the total and mark it down, then give them the chronicle. If we were short on time it got skipped, but I tried. Some players weren't fans of it, but went with it.
At other stores or conventions I didn't bother - time is always a crush, and arguing it with players who 'never had to do that before' wasn't worth the hassle.
But I'd prefer if the GM was uninvolved with gold spent. Let the player handle their ITS and fill in the blank on their own time.
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I'll post how I run my chronicles and inventory as a player, it would be an audit friendly system if a GM wanted to sign off on any purchase. As a GM I encourage my players to operate this way but I, like many others I do not verify purchases. (Of course I take the time to coach and help new players, explaining fame as it comes up and spot checking purchases.)
I technically complete my purchases at the start of a session, having decided on them and made all the relevant changes between scenarios. After a scenario I enter those purchases as gold spent in the running tally at the same time as I update the experience and prestige. The only additional step required here to audit those purchases would be showing the GM the ITS and letting them initial it.
The problems with this: Some scenarios are very specific about not being able to do anything before the scenario, every time this has come up the gm has understood that these purchases 'happened' during downtime. It also requires double checking the last chronicle and the ITS to ensure the character actually has enough gold to make any purchases.
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Where do you track how much gold you actually have on hand entering a scenario? That’s part of the issue. There’s nowhere on any of the official documents to track current gold. So if you have a total on your previous chronicle and a bunch of items you’ve purchased for your new chronicle, you have to track your current gold separately. Thus why people stare suggesting gold tracking could move to the ITS. Then you just update it after purchases and have your running total.
None of this is an issue for people who keep meticulous records. But when someone shows up with a completed chronicle and a rough list of purchases without any of the new math done, it wastes game time dealing with it.
It’s been said many times in this and other threads... We trust players to fill out their character sheet, its, know the rules for their character, etc. without requiring a GM to sign off on it. Why can’t we trust them to subtract two numbers? A GM can always audit if they think something is wrong, just like they can with any of the other forms/issues.
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Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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Where do you track how much gold you actually have on hand entering a scenario? That’s part of the issue. There’s nowhere on any of the official documents to track current gold. So if you have a total on your previous chronicle and a bunch of items you’ve purchased for your new chronicle, you have to track your current gold separately. Thus why people stare suggesting gold tracking could move to the ITS. Then you just update it after purchases and have your running total.
Like so much of our chronicle system, it is on a trust basis. It is pretty easy for a GM to check the amount of gold available when looking at what a player has purchased before the start of an adventure. It is the same amount that is put on for beginning gold after all.
None of this is an issue for people who keep meticulous records. But when someone shows up with a completed chronicle and a rough list of purchases without any of the new math done, it wastes game time dealing with it.
Very true. And nothing we do will have any impact on those players because too many GMs are not willing to a "bad guy" or too many lodges don't follow the rules as well as they likely should.
It’s been said many times in this and other threads... We trust players to fill out their character sheet, its, know the rules for their character, etc. without requiring a GM to sign off on it. Why can’t we trust them to subtract two numbers? A GM can always audit if they think something is wrong, just like they can with any of the other forms/issues.
Agree with this 100%.
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Where do you track how much gold you actually have on hand entering a scenario? That’s part of the issue. There’s nowhere on any of the official documents to track current gold. So if you have a total on your previous chronicle and a bunch of items you’ve purchased for your new chronicle, you have to track your current gold separately. Thus why people stare suggesting gold tracking could move to the ITS. Then you just update it after purchases and have your running total.Like so much of our chronicle system, it is on a trust basis. It is pretty easy for a GM to check the amount of gold available when looking at what a player has purchased before the start of an adventure. It is the same amount that is put on for beginning gold after all.
But it's not. Beginning gold is the gold before your purchases. So if a player can't subtract what they spend from their previous chronicle, they show up with a beginning gold amount and a list of items they have bought during downtime. Which means they need to track "current" gold available to spend during the scenario somewhere else, which is not accounted for on any of the forms. Some players might do that on their character sheet. Some won't. So when time comes to purchase that scroll of breath of life after leaving the briefing, the math will have to be done then. If gold was tracked on the ITS, then it wouldn't matter which chronicle it was subtracted from, and it wouldn't need GM sign off. GMs would sign off on gold earned during a scenario, and gold spent during a scenario that was not on items (so clearing conditions, bribes in game, etc.) So at the end of the session, you're handed a chronicle with the net gold you earned that scenario, and you can track everything else on your ITS. Absent that, just let the player do the math on their own time.
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But it's not. Beginning gold is the gold before your purchases. So if a player can't subtract what they spend from their previous chronicle, they show up with a beginning gold amount and a list of items they have bought during downtime. Which means they need to track "current" gold available to spend during the scenario somewhere else, which is not accounted for on any of the forms. Some players might do that on their character sheet. Some won't. So when time comes to purchase that scroll of breath of life after leaving the briefing, the math will have to be done then. If gold was tracked on the ITS, then it wouldn't matter which chronicle it was subtracted from, and it wouldn't need GM sign off. GMs would sign off on gold earned during a scenario, and gold spent during a scenario that was not on items (so clearing conditions, bribes in game, etc.) So at the end of the session, you're handed a chronicle with the net gold you earned that scenario, and you can track everything else on your ITS. Absent that, just let the player do the math on their own time.
This seems to be the best solution to me.
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tl;dr
If you purchase anything during the course of that session, write it on your ITS report. At the end of the session, the GM will issue you the chronicle with the new rewards. When you go to do any purchasing, include the items purchased during the scenario. Simple. I really do understand why this process needs to be so complicated.
The idea that the next GM is validating your purchases is ludicrous given they aren't reviewing every other part of your character. As has been said, there is an expectation of trust that the player is following the rules. As long as they show good faith by having their character (and chronicles) up to date, it is rare that an audit of any kind would be required.
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Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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Where do you track how much gold you actually have on hand entering a scenario? That’s part of the issue. There’s nowhere on any of the official documents to track current gold. So if you have a total on your previous chronicle and a bunch of items you’ve purchased for your new chronicle, you have to track your current gold separately. Thus why people stare suggesting gold tracking could move to the ITS. Then you just update it after purchases and have your running total.Like so much of our chronicle system, it is on a trust basis. It is pretty easy for a GM to check the amount of gold available when looking at what a player has purchased before the start of an adventure. It is the same amount that is put on for beginning gold after all.
But it's not. Beginning gold is the gold before your purchases. So if a player can't subtract what they spend from their previous chronicle, they show up with a beginning gold amount and a list of items they have bought during downtime. Which means they need to track "current" gold available to spend during the scenario somewhere else, which is not accounted for on any of the forms. Some players might do that on their character sheet. Some won't. So when time comes to purchase that scroll of breath of life after leaving the briefing, the math will have to be done then. If gold was tracked on the ITS, then it wouldn't matter which chronicle it was subtracted from, and it wouldn't need GM sign off. GMs would sign off on gold earned during a scenario, and gold spent during a scenario that was not on items (so clearing conditions, bribes in game, etc.) So at the end of the session, you're handed a chronicle with the net gold you earned that scenario, and you can track everything else on your ITS. Absent that, just let the player do the math on their own time.
I don't see a real difference from this method from what I said earlier. Either way the player to know how much gold they have available.
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I'm not sure I understand?
The amount that you fill into the Beginning gold on your chronicle sheet is the same as the number in the total on the previous chronicle sheet. If that total is done at the table at the end of the previous session, then it does not include your purchases made between sessions.
Or are you suggesting that the beginning gold does not need to match the total from the previous chronicle? Because I don't think anyone is doing it that way currently. At least I've not seen that suggested in any of the previous discussions on this topic that I've participated in (which are several).
To me, the chronicle sheet format simply doesn't well support tracking of accounting. The GP should be tracked on the inventory tracking sheet, which would be a running record of all the character's purchases, sales, and expenditures - chronological in nature, all in one record.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Martinsville
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It is easier for me with an ITS that is the excel file that was offered by a poster when the Inventory Sheets were first introduced. The running total is done and there can be a way to track what is spent on each chronicle with an added section.
I also believe that having the (just played) chronicle complete (or at least set to be completed when time permits) for the game just played instead of waiting for it to be added to or changed is preferable. That is why I put in-between purchases on the next (to be played) chronicle, with the current cash on hand.
I also keep tabs on the total between the ITS and the Herolab file before I start to purchase those items.
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
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Purchases of items worth less than 25gp are not required to be noted on the Inventory Tracking Sheet, so unless the rules are changed it can't be the definitive record.
I really don't see what's wrong with allowing the player to fill in the "Gold Spent" line any time before the character is next played, at which time the "Total Gold" at the end of the chronicle can also be filled in.
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It is easier for me with an ITS that is the excel file that was offered by a poster when the Inventory Sheets were first introduced. The running total is done and there can be a way to track what is spent on each chronicle with an added section.
I also believe that having the (just played) chronicle complete (or at least set to be completed when time permits) for the game just played instead of waiting for it to be added to or changed is preferable. That is why I put in-between purchases on the next (to be played) chronicle, with the current cash on hand.
I also keep tabs on the total between the ITS and the Herolab file before I start to purchase those items.
Right, but that is a 3rd party tracking sheet. The point is that if the previous chronicle is totaled up and completely filled out, then there is nowhere on any of the official sheets to track gold spent in between scenarios. It doesn't get recorded on an official sheet until the end of the next session.
The suggestion is that, if the previous chronicle must be completed at the end of that session, a place be added somewhere to track gold spent on item purchases made between scenarios, so that players know how much gold they have left to spend when the next sessions starts.
If the counter to that is that they can track that on their own, then I would ask if they can be trusted to do that, why can't they be trusted to total up their previous chronicle?
So that's the issue. The rules, and some respondents here, are saying you must complete the total on your previous chronicle, so that a GM can check it over before you leave the table. But it's fine to track things on your own or not have a number written down for how much gold you actually have heading into the next scenario (because nowhere is provided to do so). So while the whole system is being looked at, either give us somewhere to track that amount so the next GM can do it at a glance, or just trust the players to do the math on their previous chronicle so the information is recorded there. And note that allowing that in no way prevents anyone from going ahead and totaling things up on their own and listing their purchases on their next chronicle if that's what they prefer.
Honestly, this is bookkeeping and not something we should be asking GMs to get involved with unless there's an apparent issue. It's just wasting their time in most circumstances. If a player has a question, they can always ask. If a GM suspects an issue, they can always audit. Otherwise, I don't want to be spending time at the table on this.
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Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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Where did she buy the Belt? on CR#12? or CR#13? ... well, she had it during the adventure that gave her CR#13, so I would think she should have had to have had 13+ Fame BEFORE CR#13... right? But that is not what is reflected on her paperwork. Clearly she bought it on CR#13, so she had to have 13+ Fame on CR#13 - which she had. So everything looks good in the paperwork (even though she spent money she didn't have, for an item she wasn't actually able to own... right?).
To me, the belt was bought on CR#13. The belt could have been purchased DURING the adventure but stead was purchased PRIOR to the beginning of the adventure. To me, there is no difference.
Now are we are adding fame requirements to the discussion? That is not relevant to the recording the expenses.
For me, I make sure I have the fame. The fame problem is present no matter what. I accidentally had my son purchase an item that he didn't have the fame to get. So he spent the money early but was not able to use the item until he got the fame. An honest mistake that was taken care of and moved on.
But lets "Stay on target" here as we fly down this trench.
I suppose an 'alternative' approach, though even more paper unfriendly, would be to have a generic 'market' chronicle sheet that you could generate in your downtime to track market transactions made between scenarios. It could then be audited quickly by the next GM and initialed before that scenario kicks off. Admittedly, this is probably the 'cleanest' approach, just more pages in the folder.
To be honest, I wouldn't be opposed to this sheet also being used to reflect level advancement in an official form as well.
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What I’m starting to do is take my chronicle sheet home and print a TPS :-P report on the back. I can itemize my purchases and sales, total the amount and transfer it to the front of the sheet. Crunch the math and fill in the final gold. Next session, I can easily transfer that amount to the new chronicle as a starting point and if the GM wants to do an audit, my purchase will be shown associated with the chronicle sheet when they were purchased and my fame score can be referenced on the front. Since I use HeroLab for my character sheet, I don’t track expendable like potions or charges on the ITS form. I track them in the program. When an item is expended I simply replace it with a new purchase on the following chronicle sheet. I think this is the cleanest methodology. Keeps me honest, and gives the GM everything they’ll need if they chose to do an audit
Are there rules about creating 'custom' chronicle sheets to record this sort of info that takes place between scenarios? The more I think about it, the more I think this is really the best way to go.
The PC doesn't track how much money they have spent between chronicles? That seems like a bigger problem.
Well, currently, by the rules, NOTHING happens between chronicles, so there is nothing to track.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Martinsville
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The gold I spend between sessions is gone, the monies I have left is recorded on the character sheet (Herolab printout, in my case). I also go by the Fame requirements of the Chronicle that I actually have, not the one I will be getting.
Common sense should rule the day. The only reason I say that the between sessions purchases should go on the next chronicle is that the player would not be able to make purchases outside of the game table otherwise.
The gold I spend between sessions is gone, the monies I have left is recorded on the character sheet (Herolab printout, in my case). I also go by the Fame requirements of the Chronicle that I actually have, not the one I will be getting.
Common sense should rule the day. The only reason I say that the between sessions purchases should go on the next chronicle is that the player would not be able to make purchases outside of the game table otherwise.
That's why I think the 'downtime' or 'market' or whatever chronicle sheet would work so well. He COULD make those purchases, in his leisure, and bring it to his next session, where the GM of that session can initial it. It will have the fame of the character following the last session on it, it will show the money brought forward from the end of the last scenario, minus the net purchases, and have the total that is brought forward onto the chronicle for the session he is playing today. It's another page in the folder, that appears to the be only downside in that method.
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
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I don't need (or want) any additional chronicle sheet with my characters.
During the "Downtime" between scenarios I will decide how to advance my character (including levelling up if appropriate), and what to purchase. I will then fill in the Inventory Tracking Sheet (showing everything that I have purchased, even the trivial items).
If the next GM wants to check that the sum of the purchases matches the totals I show in the "gold spent" and "prestige spent" boxes on the previous chronicle, and that the arithmetic tracking the gold on the chronicle sheet is correct, all the necessary figures are available.
I have yet to have a GM do that - the most I have encountered is GMs who want to see the previous chronicle to be sure that the boxes for final XP, Prestige, Fame & Gold are all filled in.
We trust players to advance their character without cheating, even though it would be trivial to change out feats, skills, equipment, etc. between play sessions if later experiences showed that a poor choice had been made. Given that, it doesn't seem unreasonable to assume that they can also be trusted to fill in the last two boxes on a chronicle sheet.
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The gold I spend between sessions is gone, the monies I have left is recorded on the character sheet (Herolab printout, in my case). I also go by the Fame requirements of the Chronicle that I actually have, not the one I will be getting.
Common sense should rule the day. The only reason I say that the between sessions purchases should go on the next chronicle is that the player would not be able to make purchases outside of the game table otherwise.
So if we trust players to do this on a sheet that is not official, and in a way that is not required, why don’t we trust them to fill out the remaining boxes of a chronicle sheet on their own? I still don’t understand what is gained by having the GM do that at the table. The point is to make sure that all of the boxes are filled out for the next GM, right? But all of the information isn’t there. If X is the gold total on the previous chronicle, the character doesn’t have X amount of gold entering the scenario. They have X-whatever they’ve spent between sessions. Which they’re tracking on their own. In whatever way they want. Except for using the official sheet to do so. That’s not allowed. Because why?
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Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Martinsville
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FT, just not sure how it tracks by what is in the guide as it is right now, just what I have done and have suggested to others when I have GM'd.
Right now, the added clarification about the chronicle has caused more confusion and added steps that are unnecessary because, overall, most players do not do their purchases at the table, before or after the session. This was something that was mentioned for the last few years as the guide was being updated, and the overall filling out of the chronicle has become something that has been shortened by the GM.
Typically, the GM fills out the bottom, perhaps puts the PFS number on the top of the page from the reporting sheet, and the EXP, PP, and gold earned and gives it to the player. See you next week, you can do the Pathfinder Math game at home. I know this was mostly what was done at Gen Con, this year and years previous.
Really, the chronicle should be filled out by what the character would end up with if the player had filled it out before leaving the table. For me, that would include between session purchases (from before the chronicle was rewarded) and whatever gold/purchases was made during the game. The player would have notes on used ammo, purchases made during the game, fill out the chronicle at his leisure, then would make the current between sessions purchases that would go on the next chronicle, noting what gold the character has left after this is done, and have a running total to put on the chronicle he will receive next.
What is in the guide right now and in the past is almost next to impossible when the players/GM is hurrying to get home, out of the closing store, or get ready for the next slot at a Con. This is what has been discussed in the past.
I am not sure how to correct/adjust things in the Guide right now, as the procedure that is in there now and in the past is pretty much ignored, as the bottom and GM boxes on the side is filled out and handed to the player and typically it goes straight into the folder and everyone says their goodbyes.
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I understand everything you’re saying, and I know the history of the issue. I still don’t understand why a player can’t record purchases made after a session on the chronicle from that session as long as their final math is correct. What does it matter which chronicle they decide to record the purchaes on other than the guide says total everything at the table? The Guide has changed in an apparent attempt to lessen the burden on the GMs. What is there now is also confusing and not practical. Why not just state that the GM fills in the boxes listed as GM only and trust the player to do the rest? My point is that we trust the player to do everything else related to their character without GM sign off. Why not this?
If my last message seemed frustrated, it’s because I was in the middle of filling out chronicles for an online game. The online region was given direct instructions that GMs must fill out chronicles completely. That came before the new guide, but with the confusion over the new guide I don’t know that anything has changed. It took me an hour to fill out 6 chronicles, because they were from season 2 and had three sub totals and the need to write in dayjobs. And I had to total everything up, add starting gold, XP, etc. which are unique to each character instead of just filling in about 1/3 as many fields, most of which are the same on all of the chronicles, and letting the players total everything up. Maybe it would have been easier to handwrite them and scan them, but either way it’s a lot of extra work just because we don’t trust the players for some reason.
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If that’s what is meant it’s a better situation, but it’s still asking GMs to do something they haven’t had to do in the past. Basically on method has been used by the majority of GMs going on 10+ years now, including at major events run by Paizo. It’s been working fine. It didn’t agree with what was in the Guide. The Guide was changed, but not to the system that has been used and works fine. Rather than try to invent some new method (for PF 1) that involves new steps that have never existed (GMs have never initialed purchases, that’s part of why the ITS doesn’t require a signature), could we just get an official Ok to keep doing things the way almost everyone has been doing them for a decade?
If a GM wants to fill everything in nothing stops them from doing so. If a player shows up with an incomplete chronicle, a GM can still turn them away. Trying to invent a new process isn’t solving an issue. It’s just replacing it with a new issue.
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Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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What the guide says is to sign the last chronicle
What it MEANS is to sign the stuff bought on the last chronicle.
With what the guide means is there any problem?
I am not comfortable signing a chronicle for an adventure that I did not run. It is that simple. The way the guide is written now makes me very uncomfortable.
So if this is what leadership wants, I will always make my purchase after the start of the adventure. But we all know that in some adventures the party does not have time to make purchases. So this will put that party at a greater risk of failing because they we unable to properly prepare their characters. This is not a good result.
The new process is not practical and should be undone in a 10.1 version.
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I am not comfortable signing a chronicle for an adventure that I did not run. It is that simple. The way the guide is written now makes me very uncomfortable.
You don't sign the chronicle you just sign the purchases on it.
. So this will put that party at a greater risk of failing because they we unable to properly prepare their characters. This is not a good result.
If thats the result its the result of your own decisions.
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You don't sign the chronicle you just sign the purchases on it.
I am not comfortable signing a chronicle for an adventure that I did not run. It is that simple. The way the guide is written now makes me very uncomfortable.
Something that has never been required on any form for the last 10 years, and which was a major factor behind not requiring a signature on the ITS. Because GMs and Players did not want to have to deal with that extra step.
And also something that doesn't even have a space ON the chronicle to record. Do season 10 chronicles have purchase and sale sections again, as well as a GM initial block?
Something like this would make things so much clearer and simpler - I'm sure it's a little late for pfs1e, but maybe something to consider for pfs2e? Yes, it's more papers tied to a character, but it makes things very clear and easy to audit (which is sort of the point of the chronicle sheets to begin with).