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![Night Monarch](http://cdn.paizo.com/image/avatar/B2.HeraldOfDesna.jpg)
So the problem is that The high level wizard in question doesn't fit your concept of what a high level wizard should be, not gamist vs simulationist concerns?
Well I approach roleplaying games more from the narrativist angle first, simulationist second, gamist third, if that helps you in any way. Which is a problem I've had with D&D-like games for a very long time, to be honest, but it is also one that seems to get worse with every new edition of the game.
Regarding that wizard, it's just that he willingly removes all his defenses (goes naked) and willingly forfeits his best weapon (magic), so the only thing that differentiates him from a commoner is his experience he accumulated over time. And that experience won't help him much if he goes with bare fists against several opponents with armor and deadly weapons in their hands.
At least that's, how in my opinion, the game rules should simulate things (the simulation aspect). It's also not a story I would want to narrate or read, because I'm not that much interested in characters that can do it all.
I do not even know if such characters exist anywhere in fantasy. Gandalf would get his ass kicked in a bareknuckled fight, as would Rand al'Thor and both are sword masters in their own right. Even Elminster would probably know better than to try that stunt.
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![Orcus](http://cdn.paizo.com/image/avatar/demon-prince_Orcus.jpg)
There's a reason Paizo has been drawing Ezren as progressively more ripped with each new book.
They have been preparing us for this day.
Look at that picture. Woe to the dozen level-3 rogues that jump that fella in the alley.
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magnuskn |
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![Alurad Sorizan](http://cdn.paizo.com/image/avatar/Elminster.jpg)
There's a reason Paizo has been drawing Ezren as progressively more ripped with each new book.
They have been preparing us for this day.
Look at that picture. Woe to the dozen level-3 rogues that jump that fella in the alley.
Huh, yeah, he is kinda World of Warcraft'ish in his musculature in that drawing. That huge muscle-bound men are the only humans available for all classes is the reason why I only have female mages in that game. Muscle-bound mage/wizard just doesn't work for me mentally.
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Doctadud |
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![Shackles Pirate](http://cdn.paizo.com/image/avatar/Faction-pirate.jpg)
I strongly agree the rulebook is not pleasant to read. If I am looking up something after I understand the game, this organization is good, even great. However,while I'm trying to learn the game? It's complete suffering. Having to flip to the spells section and back to compare my wizard school powers or cleric domain powers is just unenjoyable. Is it more consistent to have them with the spells? Honestly, yes. But is it better for a first read? Hell no.
In general, the rulebook has a lot of things not-where-they're-relevant, but instead has them in a database of all the things of that kind, and you're constantly told to refer to that database. It's very logical but exceedingly dense and frustrating. On a first read, it violates the same design rules that make web designers try to make everything take as few clicks as possible. It's exhausting to read through even a single class, because you're sent to the far corners of the book -multiple times- to read even a single page. I do not like it very much.
Mustachioed wrote:I think it is a good point being made here.
Essentially, why are we getting these lingo-esque words mixed into our abilities. It makes reading the book really confusing.
(Actually the poster above me said it better. The book isn't fun to read.)
Basically, clarity. When done properly, adding jargon makes intent clearer and helps close gaps between RAW and RAI. Unfortunately, when the jargon is unintuitive, the results are very offputting.
I don't feel the jargon is clear or intuitive right now. A lot of distinct keywords gloss as the same (unseen and concealed, deadly and fatal), and the keywords aren't even always identifiable as keywords because they're rarely capitalized or bolded. In fact, the first time you see a keyword, you might not even know it's a keyword -- and that's bad. Even if you don't know its meaning, it should be obvious a keyword is a keyword.
Keywords definitely need to be easy to identify as you said. Maybe even they could be links in the PDF or have a comment box pop up whenever you hover your mouse over them.
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![Kyra](http://cdn.paizo.com/image/avatar/PactHallRitual3.jpg)
The rule book lost me with those icons for actions (at least I think that's what they were) that all look practically the same. I didn't find the system simpler or easier or otherwise in some way that says reject all my current Pathfinder books, modules, supplements, etc. Could play for years with what we have and this new thing seems new for new sake.
For example (adding complexity) why make the separate bits of spellcasting (verbal, somatic, material) all take separate actions? My reading of it (first reading) is a spell caster who casts a spell with V,S,M cannot move in a round.
Why change the base currency from gold to silver? No explanation given.
In the words of Jason B. during many a game day in Wisconsin: "meh".
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Vic Ferrari |
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The rule book lost me with those icons for actions (at least I think that's what they were) that all look practically the same. I didn't find the system simpler or easier or otherwise in some way that says reject all my current Pathfinder books, modules, supplements, etc. Could play for years with what we have and this new thing seems new for new sake.
I definitely want icons/symbols removed, for several reasons: I am partially sighted/vision impaired, hard to tell the difference between the 2 and 3 action arrow thingies at a glance. The free action symbol just looks like a stain, and I find, in general, icons/symbols to cheapen RPGs, a bit, for me. Fine for CCGs.
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![Night Monarch](http://cdn.paizo.com/image/avatar/B2.HeraldOfDesna.jpg)
A dude that can go toe-to-toe with a balrog (balor) and win, is not going to get his ass handed to him by a bunch of bikers in a bar.
Well he did not lose and barely survived and he also probably used a lot of magic during that battle, so I'm still not convinced that a well-put hook to his jaw wouldn't K.O. him immediately.
Doesn't matter in the end. My main problem with PF/D&D in general is that the game becomes very uninteresting to me in the second half of the level range because characters get too over the top for my taste, so the challenges you have to make up for them are the same.
I also don't like that lower level challenges often aren't real challenges at all as soon as PCs are even a bit optimised, so you have to constantly modify those challenges.
Which too me is a bit of a shame because if I look at the stories Paizo tells within their APs (which I generally like), you don't even need those over the top characters.
So everytime a new edition comes, I hope that they finally dial all that back, so you probably will understand that I don't like to hear things that make me feel as if things will only get worse (from my point of view)
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Vic Ferrari |
Vic Ferrari wrote:A dude that can go toe-to-toe with a balrog (balor) and win, is not going to get his ass handed to him by a bunch of bikers in a bar.Well he did not lose and barely survived and he also probably used a lot of magic during that battle, so I'm still not convinced that a well-put hook to his jaw wouldn't K.O. him immediately.
Doesn't matter in the end. My main problem with PF/D&D in general is that the game becomes very uninteresting to me in the second half of the level range because characters get too over the top for my taste, so the challenges you have to make up for them are the same.
I also don't like that lower level challenges often aren't real challenges at all as soon as PCs are even a bit optimised, so you have to constantly modify those challenges.
Which too me is a bit of a shame because if I look at the stories Paizo tells within their APs (which I generally like), you don't even need those over the top characters.
So everytime a new edition comes, I hope that they finally dial all that back, so you probably will understand that I don't like to hear things that make me feel as if things will only get worse (from my point of view)
I am with you on everything except Gandalf, ha, the Istari/Wizards of ME are very hardy, no human is going to punch one of them out, they are just not Conan.
Delete the +Level, I have done that for my home-games (not the playtest), it really helps for the sort of campaigns I like to run (I also tired of number-porn, years ago).
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Vic Ferrari |
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Vic Ferrari wrote:[(I also tired of number-porn, years ago).That makes the old D&D book Deities and Demigods XXX hardcore rated. Keep it away from the kids!
Ha!
The original and best Deities & Demigods (AD&D, Cthulhu, Melnibonean chapters), is fine, but the 3rd Ed one and the 3rd Ed Epic Level Handbook are absurd.
Nothing more fun than rolling d20+97 for an attack roll!