So, initially I was very pleased with how he works. Stuff seemed more or less about the same between my char and others.
Now we started to scale things up a bit, and alchemist fell completely flat. Like, unplayable flat.
Reason was, as expected, RP pool.
To put it simply: no other single class uses as her class resource a common resource.
Alchemist has nothing outside of his, well, Alchemy to balance the very limited resource he has to work with.
Ofc, paizo has given a few outs, namely just 2 outs:
A) Advanced Alchemy makes 2 items/RP and
B) half level at lvl 9 to RP for quick Alchemy.
The serious problems with that are A) NOTHING (of worth) works with advanced Alchemy after a level, and all require quick Alchemy instead. And B) is too damned late.
From my experience, an alchemist at lvl 7 is good for about 2-3 encounters/day.then he's a commoner.
I think this is just a numbers problem that is easily fixable. At least in our table, the problems got alleviated greatly when we changed every single "quick alchemy" reference to "advanced alchemy"
Thematics wise, it is ridiculous that only bombs you make on the fly can, as an example, sicken people, while those you make with careful preparation can only be vanilla items.
We also lowered the level of the free RP points from 9 to 7 and, again, switched quick Alchemy to advanced Alchemy.
You have to remember :
In order to attach ANYTHING to a bomb you can't have made it before hand (which is plainly stupid)
Every single infusion costs basically double RP for your allies (again, I don't see cleric using a heal costing ME anything, only him. While alchemist using a heal costs both him and his target resources)
You Still need RP equal, or even more (if you want to take advantage of your mundane crafting class advantages at all), to everyone else.
So, simply put:
Alchemist severely needs:
Less restrictions on when he applies his class features (seriously stop with putting everything only on his quick alchemy)
More RP (it still is a general resource that on average you need more than the rest of the classes even without quick/advanced alchemy)
Better scaling. Up to level 5ish he felt OK (mainly because vanilla bombs still were ok). Around level 7 he felt terrible. Later levels look even worse off.
Edit:
Now that I'm reading what I wrote, it feels like the problem lies elsewhere :
No "low maintenance" ability.
Everyone gets something to do that doesn't costs class resources:
Martials get passively better at combat
Casters get scaling cantrips
Alchemists get... Nothing.
They are about caster level martial wise, they don't get a spammable power, everything costs resources. When your level 1 class feat gives you the ability to throw 2 bombs, out of like your 4 total in a round, but your "sustain" feats come online at level 16,then there's a design error.
Maybe give a level class feat that's like a minor version of the improbable potions feat: choose 2-4 cantrips that you can make as potions, these don't cost RP to make, you can carry as many as your int modifier (but can remake in between encounters) or something like that.
Quick question:
Are you considering the items an alchemist can craft, without the use of RP, during Downtime? It seems to me that, as long as the alchemist succeeds on the craft check, and has the raw material costs necessary, he/she could create any number of consumables to be used on adventure, much like a wizard with scribe scroll.
JoCa wrote: Quick question:
Are you considering the items an alchemist can craft, without the use of RP, during Downtime? It seems to me that, as long as the alchemist succeeds on the craft check, and has the raw material costs necessary, he/she could create any number of consumables to be used on adventure, much like a wizard with scribe scroll.
Problem with that is that almost nothing he crafts mundanely gets any sort of bonus from his abilities, and more importantly cost.
Alchemical items had their cost jacked up to the max.
To emphasise : +1 rune is 65 gp. A single alchemist fire vial is 3 gp.
Alchemist fire made that way also doesn't scale at all, and you can't apply Any of your class abilities on it. It's the exact same alchemist fire the fighter/rogue/wizard/etc can craft.
Same cost, same damage.
And its still is 1/20th of a magical item.
Again, since you mentioned Wizard. Wizard can keep flinging 3d4+int splash cantrips at will. That's about 6 damage less than what an alchemist gains/RP with his bombs.
Essentially, you can make bombs "at will" ability, and you'll still be about the same level or lower than a Caster.
It doesn't seem all that different from PF1 alchemist to me, honestly. Just using RP versus bombs per day, the 2e Alchemist can create twice as many bombs per day. Right?
1st ed was level plus Int mod. 2e has RP at the same rate, but you can also create twice as many, if you prep bombs.
My real beef is that mutagen comes online so much later.
Look at the cantrip vs bomb debate like this.
Wizard cantrips are their weapon. Not their special ability. Spells are their "bomb".
Alchemist weapons are their weapon. Their bombs are their special ability. Bombs (and other alchemicals) are their spells.
Gregg Reece wrote: Look at the cantrip vs bomb debate like this.
Wizard cantrips are their weapon. Not their special ability. Spells are their "bomb".
Alchemist weapons are their weapon. Their bombs are their special ability. Bombs (and other alchemicals) are their spells.
Yet they gain Zero abilities for weapons.
They are exactly as adept as a wizard using them and gain as much class feats as a wizard for them.
Everybody gets SOMETHING to do that doesn't cost resources, alchemist don't.
Not even they don't, even their abilities eat from a resource pool that others can KEEP using for more things.
To put it simply:
Everyone else: 3 resource pools. 1 their abilities. 2 their passive/cantrips. 3 their magical items/consumables.
Alchemist : same pool for all with 0 buffs to said pool.
JoCa wrote: It doesn't seem all that different from PF1 alchemist to me, honestly. Just using RP versus bombs per day, the 2e Alchemist can create twice as many bombs per day. Right?
1st ed was level plus Int mod. 2e has RP at the same rate, but you can also create twice as many, if you prep bombs.
My real beef is that mutagen comes online so much later.
Not even close.
Bombs and infusions take from the same pool for once.
But more importantly, if you use advanced Alchemy for bombs (the 2/RP you say) you CAN'T APPLY ANY DEBUFF on them.
So for low level stuff, that's OK. But come level 7+ where the only benefit of the bomb comes from debilitating, you need to use quick Alchemy (1/rp + 1mround max)
If you want to compare the to 1st ed (we shouldn't, everyone is lower) :
Imagine if bombs took completely away their spell list and mutagen. Because now, mutagen, bombs, and infusions And magical items all draw from the same int+level (advice Alchemy doesn't apply to bombs if you hope to actually make them usable)
I'm not a fan of the Alchemist double dipping into the Resonance mechanic and being "nonmagical." I'd rather they use Spell Points, if Alchemists need a special mechanic just make their Spell Point pool Int + level rather than Int + plus extras from follow on feat powers. Cha becomes a dump stat that works normally with magic items, and they have more alchemy resources.
I think the low cost skill you're looking for after level five is the Mutagen. Bestial Mutagen effectively replaces a magic weapon, juggernaut Mutagen adds some defensive abilities, etc. It just depends on if your alchemist has a magic weapon or wants the feral Mutagen feel from 1e. 1 RP per battle, at most. And it comes online at five, just when you're concerned about the bombs dropping off.
Ablifco wrote: I think the low cost skill you're looking for after level five is the Mutagen. Bestial Mutagen effectively replaces a magic weapon, juggernaut Mutagen adds some defensive abilities, etc. It just depends on if your alchemist has a magic weapon or wants the feral Mutagen feel from 1e. 1 RP per battle, at most. And it comes online at five, just when you're concerned about the bombs dropping off. Mutagen is not a replacement. They are actually fairly weak in general, about what you would expect from a non magical potion.
At lvl 5 using your example, you can do 3d3 damage fists and gain some penalties to a bunch of things,including -2 to AC and reflex.
It takes 2 actions to drink, and you don't get the benefit until the 3RD round of combat, which is terrible.
For 1 RP you can do so twice per day.
For the same 1 RP you can use a handwrap+1 and be generally better at combat. Or even better, use a +1 weapon, do 2d8 damage and not have a penalty and you won't waste any RP as well (having handbrake stacking on the other hand will indeed be too much, it's just that mutagen is badly designed)
It takes 2 class feats, one for instant onset and a second for the extra die for mutagens to come barely on top of a single magical weapon (which you can easily have by level 5,remember,20 alchemists fire= one +1 weapon)
For mutagen to even be an option to replace consistent low resources damage, it would need to be made to somehow stack with weapon damage. It could be seen like the alchemist's "martial enhancement" spectrum of things.
Something like bestiary adding a flat 10/tier damage (not affected by weapon grade/enchant)
Now its just another replacement (for weapon).
We already have replacements doing the exact same thing but different, without adding anything.
What alchemist needs is something to actually ADD.
shroudb wrote: Ablifco wrote: I think the low cost skill you're looking for after level five is the Mutagen. Bestial Mutagen effectively replaces a magic weapon, juggernaut Mutagen adds some defensive abilities, etc. It just depends on if your alchemist has a magic weapon or wants the feral Mutagen feel from 1e. 1 RP per battle, at most. And it comes online at five, just when you're concerned about the bombs dropping off. Mutagen is not a replacement. They are actually fairly weak in general, about what you would expect from a non magical potion.
At lvl 5 using your example, you can do 3d3 damage fists and gain some penalties to a bunch of things,including -2 to AC and reflex.
It takes 2 actions to drink, and you don't get the benefit until the 3RD round of combat, which is terrible.
For 1 RP you can do so twice per day.
For the same 1 RP you can use a handwrap+1 and be generally better at combat. Or even better, use a +1 weapon, do 2d8 damage and not have a penalty and you won't waste any RP as well
It takes 2 class feats, one for instant onset and a second for the extra die for mutagens to come barely on top of a single magical weapon (which you can easily have by level 5,remember,20 alchemists fire= one +1 weapon) On mobile so sorry for formatting.
Just a couple things. It's a plus 2 item bonus to hit and 3d4 damage. d3 in 1E. Only a -1 to AC and the others. Which is equivalent to a +2 handwraps, not +1.
It only takes one operate action to drink. Are you counting one for drawing it?
To each their own. I like the mutagens, and I think they're effectively this class's low cost combat ability. I don't need them to make me a fighter, just to give me an option in combat other than bombs. Poisons also look great in this edition, and you can prep those in downtime.
I think there's plenty wrong with the class, but your original post was looking for this class's cantrips, and I'm pretty sure that's what Mutagen is.
Ablifco wrote: shroudb wrote: Ablifco wrote: I think the low cost skill you're looking for after level five is the Mutagen. Bestial Mutagen effectively replaces a magic weapon, juggernaut Mutagen adds some defensive abilities, etc. It just depends on if your alchemist has a magic weapon or wants the feral Mutagen feel from 1e. 1 RP per battle, at most. And it comes online at five, just when you're concerned about the bombs dropping off. Mutagen is not a replacement. They are actually fairly weak in general, about what you would expect from a non magical potion.
At lvl 5 using your example, you can do 3d3 damage fists and gain some penalties to a bunch of things,including -2 to AC and reflex.
It takes 2 actions to drink, and you don't get the benefit until the 3RD round of combat, which is terrible.
For 1 RP you can do so twice per day.
For the same 1 RP you can use a handwrap+1 and be generally better at combat. Or even better, use a +1 weapon, do 2d8 damage and not have a penalty and you won't waste any RP as well
It takes 2 class feats, one for instant onset and a second for the extra die for mutagens to come barely on top of a single magical weapon (which you can easily have by level 5,remember,20 alchemists fire= one +1 weapon) On mobile so sorry for formatting.
Just a couple things. It's a plus 2 item bonus to hit and 3d4 damage. d3 in 1E. Only a -1 to AC and the others. Which is equivalent to a +2 handwraps, not +1.
It only takes one operate action to drink. Are you counting one for drawing it?
To each their own. I like the mutagens, and I think they're effectively this class's low cost combat ability. I don't need them to make me a fighter, just to give me an option in combat other than bombs. Poisons also look great in this edition, and you can prep those in downtime.
I think there's plenty wrong with the class, but your original post was looking for this class's cantrips, and I'm pretty sure that's what Mutagen is. yeah, my bad for the -2 insteqad of -1, but still, my point was irrelevant of actual numerical values:
my point is:
you use mutagens INSTEAD of weapons, since for some ridiculous reasons they don't stack (just imagine the hilarity of power attack only applying if you're using only nonmagical weapons, that's how bad that is)
you use alchemy INSTEAD of potions (you'll never have enough RP for both consumables and your class ability simultaneously)
you use bombs INSTEAD of infusions
etc
basically, the class, ANY class, requires some form of sustain. Alchemists not only completely lack any sort of sustain in their class, but their very own mechanic HAMPERS their sustain (because it eats their consumables usage that every other class actually has)
numerical wise, it still requires 3 rounds for mutagen to come online, which is simply put, ridiculous.
for an edition that wants to eliminate feat "taxes" the remoaval of onset is just that, a feat tax. It offers nothing gameplay wise that mutagens aren't actually effective on use, not even at the beginning of your next round, but actually at the END of your 2nd round, making them effective only from 3rd round and onwards.
so far, we've played with 5 classes on levels 3/5/7 and skimmed with 1 more on level 3. Alchemist is BY FAR the worse. It's basically the 3rd ed rogue.
shroudb wrote: JoCa wrote: Quick question:
Are you considering the items an alchemist can craft, without the use of RP, during Downtime? It seems to me that, as long as the alchemist succeeds on the craft check, and has the raw material costs necessary, he/she could create any number of consumables to be used on adventure, much like a wizard with scribe scroll.
Problem with that is that almost nothing he crafts mundanely gets any sort of bonus from his abilities, and more importantly cost.
Alchemical items had their cost jacked up to the max.
To emphasise : +1 rune is 65 gp. A single alchemist fire vial is 3 gp.
Alchemist fire made that way also doesn't scale at all, and you can't apply Any of your class abilities on it. It's the exact same alchemist fire the fighter/rogue/wizard/etc can craft.
Same cost, same damage.
And its still is 1/20th of a magical item.
Again, since you mentioned Wizard. Wizard can keep flinging 3d4+int splash cantrips at will. That's about 6 damage less than what an alchemist gains/RP with his bombs.
Essentially, you can make bombs "at will" ability, and you'll still be about the same level or lower than a Caster. Most of your elixers probably eventually will get relegated to being made via cash as they gain less power from being infused directly. Plus if you take the level 4 feat I believe you can make batches of 8 for the one cost so for basic healing stuff it makes a lot more sense to make it this way that way you are only paying the infuse cost once to use instead of twice when they do it via quick or advanced alchemy.
Still there is basically no point making bombs for cash as they do little damage after mid levels and you can't use any of your alchemy stuff to improve them which is really weird. Currently even the bombs you CAN make that are good like the acid bomb are pretty much your one good trick. The alchemists fire bomb due to not getting your +stat bonus can't really keep up even with cantrips.
shroudb wrote: Gregg Reece wrote: Look at the cantrip vs bomb debate like this.
Wizard cantrips are their weapon. Not their special ability. Spells are their "bomb".
Alchemist weapons are their weapon. Their bombs are their special ability. Bombs (and other alchemicals) are their spells.
Yet they gain Zero abilities for weapons.
They are exactly as adept as a wizard using them and gain as much class feats as a wizard for them.
Everybody gets SOMETHING to do that doesn't cost resources, alchemist don't.
Not even they don't, even their abilities eat from a resource pool that others can KEEP using for more things.
To put it simply:
Everyone else: 3 resource pools. 1 their abilities. 2 their passive/cantrips. 3 their magical items/consumables.
Alchemist : same pool for all with 0 buffs to said pool.
JoCa wrote: It doesn't seem all that different from PF1 alchemist to me, honestly. Just using RP versus bombs per day, the 2e Alchemist can create twice as many bombs per day. Right?
1st ed was level plus Int mod. 2e has RP at the same rate, but you can also create twice as many, if you prep bombs.
My real beef is that mutagen comes online so much later.
Not even close.
Bombs and infusions take from the same pool for once.
But more importantly, if you use advanced Alchemy for bombs (the 2/RP you say) you CAN'T APPLY ANY DEBUFF on them.
So for low level stuff, that's OK. But come level 7+ where the only benefit of the bomb comes from debilitating, you need to use quick Alchemy (1/rp + 1mround max)
If you want to compare the to 1st ed (we shouldn't, everyone is lower) :
Imagine if bombs took completely away their spell list and mutagen. Because now, mutagen, bombs, and infusions And magical items all draw from the same int+level (advice Alchemy doesn't apply to bombs if you hope to actually make them usable) I think it probably would make some sense if alchemists got a spell point pool at like 3rd level or something that could be used for making infused things. They should not need to burn all of their own resonance just to function as a class. Once they start getting magic items they are going to be hard pressed to use any because any magic item they infuse is gimping their ability to function as a class.
kaid wrote: shroudb wrote: Gregg Reece wrote: Look at the cantrip vs bomb debate like this.
Wizard cantrips are their weapon. Not their special ability. Spells are their "bomb".
Alchemist weapons are their weapon. Their bombs are their special ability. Bombs (and other alchemicals) are their spells.
Yet they gain Zero abilities for weapons.
They are exactly as adept as a wizard using them and gain as much class feats as a wizard for them.
Everybody gets SOMETHING to do that doesn't cost resources, alchemist don't.
Not even they don't, even their abilities eat from a resource pool that others can KEEP using for more things.
To put it simply:
Everyone else: 3 resource pools. 1 their abilities. 2 their passive/cantrips. 3 their magical items/consumables.
Alchemist : same pool for all with 0 buffs to said pool.
JoCa wrote: It doesn't seem all that different from PF1 alchemist to me, honestly. Just using RP versus bombs per day, the 2e Alchemist can create twice as many bombs per day. Right?
1st ed was level plus Int mod. 2e has RP at the same rate, but you can also create twice as many, if you prep bombs.
My real beef is that mutagen comes online so much later.
Not even close.
Bombs and infusions take from the same pool for once.
But more importantly, if you use advanced Alchemy for bombs (the 2/RP you say) you CAN'T APPLY ANY DEBUFF on them.
So for low level stuff, that's OK. But come level 7+ where the only benefit of the bomb comes from debilitating, you need to use quick Alchemy (1/rp + 1mround max)
If you want to compare the to 1st ed (we shouldn't, everyone is lower) :
Imagine if bombs took completely away their spell list and mutagen. Because now, mutagen, bombs, and infusions And magical items all draw from the same int+level (advice Alchemy doesn't apply to bombs if you hope to actually make them usable) I think it probably would make some sense if alchemists got a spell point pool at like 3rd level or... they dont even have to wait to get magical items.
they gain "bonus" feat to craft alchemical items they cant drink (because they wont have enough RP for their class abilities), they get class feats to make even more alchemical items that they would still be unable to drink, and etc.
the whole "using RP to fuel your class" is a horrible idea
I feel like leaving the idea of "well they should craft in their downtime" mentioned in a few spots is hazardous....
like. that gets costy. pretty fasty.
I do feel like they should get an extra set of some sort of low level bombs early. or allowed to throw random reagents that causes some small amount of damage and they can do that without costs
Not only does it get costly, but stuff they craft in downtime is not Infused, and they will then have to spend Resonance on a lot of it to use. Bombs may not cost Resonance to use, but will also not scale at all since the feature that scales them only works on Infused bombs.
At least until 20th level.
kaid wrote: shroudb wrote: JoCa wrote: Quick question:
Are you considering the items an alchemist can craft, without the use of RP, during Downtime? It seems to me that, as long as the alchemist succeeds on the craft check, and has the raw material costs necessary, he/she could create any number of consumables to be used on adventure, much like a wizard with scribe scroll.
Problem with that is that almost nothing he crafts mundanely gets any sort of bonus from his abilities, and more importantly cost.
Alchemical items had their cost jacked up to the max.
To emphasise : +1 rune is 65 gp. A single alchemist fire vial is 3 gp.
Alchemist fire made that way also doesn't scale at all, and you can't apply Any of your class abilities on it. It's the exact same alchemist fire the fighter/rogue/wizard/etc can craft.
Same cost, same damage.
And its still is 1/20th of a magical item.
Again, since you mentioned Wizard. Wizard can keep flinging 3d4+int splash cantrips at will. That's about 6 damage less than what an alchemist gains/RP with his bombs.
Essentially, you can make bombs "at will" ability, and you'll still be about the same level or lower than a Caster. Most of your elixers probably eventually will get relegated to being made via cash as they gain less power from being infused directly. Plus if you take the level 4 feat I believe you can make batches of 8 for the one cost so for basic healing stuff it makes a lot more sense to make it this way that way you are only paying the infuse cost once to use instead of twice when they do it via quick or advanced alchemy.
Still there is basically no point making bombs for cash as they do little damage after mid levels and you can't use any of your alchemy stuff to improve them which is really weird. Currently even the bombs you CAN make that are good like the acid bomb are pretty much your one good trick. The alchemists fire bomb due to not getting your +stat bonus can't really keep up even with cantrips. nah, there's 0 reasons to actually craft anything.
if you craft mundane elixirs, they are not infused, so they take 1 RP each to drink, while at least with advanced alchemy they take 1 RP/2
as you mentioned, you have 0 reasons to craft bombs (they don't scale)
plus you can't apply even the minor things like extend elixirs to non-infused ones.
basically, the craft feat as well as all the craft class feats have 0 relevance.
so far, it's best to use advanced for mutagens and elixirs, and keep quick for bombs, and hope you never need a consumable charge like from a wand or something (i am assuming you will be using magical items, limiting your RP pool even further)
actually, reading it over much more carefully, (obviously an error but funny nevertheless) you can't craft mutagens with either Advanced alchemy or Quick alchemy. Both only apply to common recipes, and your Class ability that grants mutagens only adds them into your formula book, it says nothing about allowing advanced/quick alchemy to craft them. lel.
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