Craft... everything??


Skills, Feats, Equipment & Spells


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Am I understanding correctly that Craft no longer has subcategories like Lore? So if I'm trained in Craft, I can forge armor and weapons and work leather and blow glass and bind books and build bridges and do woodwork and make boats and bows and horseshoes and houses and absolutely anything else anyone has ever thought of...?

Dark Archive

I think this needs to be fleshed out more.

However, some of your examples would be covered by the lore skill.
Personally, craft would apply for armor, weapons, leather, and bows. Maybe throw leather in there.

The rest would be
blow glass: lore-glass
bind book: lore-books
bridges: lore-arcitecture
horseshoes: lore-blacksmithing
leather: lore-leatherworking

ect.

Dark Archive

I take all of that back. I just read the specialty crafting feat. Craft all the things.


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Yeah I saw that too. But hey... If you're a woodworker, you "only" get +1 to forge the head of that morningstar. Ugh. This is houserule #1.

Liberty's Edge

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This kinda reminds me of my uncle that seems to be able do any kind of manual labor.


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Similarly Performance is all performance types. I think they just want to simplify things since it doesn't matter to the core of the game which is explicitly combat.


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I really don't care for the "one crafting feat = craft anything you want" idea; it just breaks verisimilitude for me. Not to mention that it doesn't really work with standard fantasy tropes (he was a poor blacksmith who became legendary for his crafted armor.. oh, and he could also build ships and castles, and cobble together a mean pair of shoes in his spare time; somehow doesn't have the same ring to it.)

I think I understand the rationale for it (streamline it), but the end result loses out as a result IMO.

Performance suffers from the same issue, IMO.

Grand Lodge

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I think I might houserule it that without the specialized lore you can only repair items, not create.

In fact, while the text doesn't indicate that directly, the table for item creation implies it, as there is NO column for untrained.


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Whatever. I love it. Hell yeah. Craft all the things.


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Culach wrote:

I think I might houserule it that without the specialized lore you can only repair items, not create.

In fact, while the text doesn't indicate that directly, the table for item creation implies it, as there is NO column for untrained.

Page 143. Craft's untrained use is Repair (activity).


I think the line in the craft action about having to have the proficiency rank in the item and being of the same level is whats suppose to stop you making any old thing you come across. You also need the formula and while there is a book of all the common item formulas in the store the rest of them would require some research or other knowledge.


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Untrained use isn't the issue. I'm actually okay with that part. Any untrained person can attempt to repair something. But they probably suck at it. (Though this is another place where +1/level starts to creep in to weird effect, since a high level person can suddenly make better repairs to any object in the world.)

The big problem is that once you are trained, you are trained at EVERYTHING. They gated item quality behind proficiency rank. Which helps a little. But it also highlights the absurd side...

Consider this:

During an adventure, I find the formula for a Master level katana.

Back in town, we have a swordsmith, Hattori Hanzo. He's an expert with 30 years experience forging katanas.

Unfortunately, Hattori can't help. He's not a master. He can't forge that sword.

But all is not lost, because Dorothy lives down the street. And she is a master level basketweaver. She's never made a sword before. Can barely lift a hammer.

Not to worry. She's a master. So I hand her the plans, rent a forge, and she whips up the master level katana of my dreams.

Step aside Hattori. Dorothy is gonna show you how to make a TRUE samurai weapon!


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This seem drastically broken as you can craft magic armor, weapons, rings, staves, wands and any kind of potion with a catchall talent. I wonder what they were thinking when they did this. Makes no sense. Basically you only need a Formula and the Artisan Tools and you are gold. Even if some items require additional requirements, such as a forge or a laboratory, it doesn't even begin to differentiate a blacksmith forging a magical armor, from a spellcaster crafting a magical staff. Also the Formulas can be reverse engineered so you don't have to wait for them to drop in the loot.

I think we need to differentiate at least 3 subcategories like the old ones:
- armor/weapons feat
- wondrous items feat
- craft potions feat

Also the item quality does not really make much sense to me as for most items is not displayed. For example, take the minor potion of healing, what's the Item Quality? Standard?


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Also just realized that literally everyone in the world who is trained at crafting anything at all--cobbler, painter, tailor, cook, blacksmith, everything--can identify any alchemical item in 10 minutes given access to an alchemists kit.

I know the idea was to simplify the game. But this really just needs to keep the "pick a craft" aspect of 1st edition.

Same with perform. Anyone who can play ANY instrument can play EVERY instrument.

Easy to houserule, but still...

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

So, part of me likes the idea of a decoupled Craft, but after a certain point, it totally breaks versimilitude. Like, I know that in most of history sans modern times humans were crafting generalists. You made your clothes, built your house, brewed your own beer, etc. and I like the idea of being able to do that to a certain point, but being able to identify the alchemical bomb based on my mad cobbling skills just feels rife for problems.

My best suggestion would be to just put a certain category of items like simple weapons or things with a certain DC and below behind a wall that says "anyone can craft these with any craft because everyone needs them and they are so ubiquitous they are common knowledge" and then put the rest behind specific crafts, but with the variable Skill DCs thing 2e is doing that doesn't seem a possibility.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to identify this castles architectural style, don't worry, I'm a cobbler ;).

(This will be every gnome or goblin I play for PFS XD.)


Lucid Blue wrote:

Also just realized that literally everyone in the world who is trained at crafting anything at all--cobbler, painter, tailor, cook, blacksmith, everything--can identify any alchemical item in 10 minutes given access to an alchemists kit.

I know the idea was to simplify the game. But this really just needs to keep the "pick a craft" aspect of 1st edition.

Same with perform. Anyone who can play ANY instrument can play EVERY instrument.

Easy to houserule, but still...

You mean everyone CAN'T play a Cat Piano or an Uncello


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Personally, I liked the idea of Starfinder's "craft skills are merged into the other skills". Alternatively, they could have given the Lores some bite and allowed you to craft with some of those.


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I think and i'm still researching so not 100% sure, but i think you needed to have it as a proficiency other than craft to make a weapon etc, so to make a master level katana you would need to be a master of whatever weapon group katana falls into for you as well as a master of craft. I could be wrong but it's how i interpreted it to mean.

Grand Lodge

Barizac wrote:
I think and i'm still researching so not 100% sure, but i think you needed to have it as a proficiency other than craft to make a weapon etc, so to make a master level katana you would need to be a master of whatever weapon group katana falls into for you as well as a master of craft. I could be wrong but it's how i interpreted it to mean.

If that is the case that means you have to satisfy at least two of three criteria in the case of the Katana:

1-Be a master level craftsman
2-Be master level Blacksmith
3-Be master level with swords

This makes sense to an extent, but this could mean the people who want to do this can't because they didn't take the right background or lore skills, or can't make master with swords for some reason.


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For my game, I'm doing lower power, later era. So I'll just require dedicated craft skill like 1E. It's a pretty easy houserule.

Perform, I'll probably let each skill point do two (e.g. Guitar and sing).

The +1 per level untrained thing is just going to require constant gm intervention. Otherwise every high level person will be better at repair or recall knowledge than any journeyman/grad student. Perhaps I'll mark certain skills that you don't add your level to untrained actions.


The rules in this book are for special heroes who are amazing. Yes, they happen to learn incredibly broad crafting abilities. Random NPCs do not unless your GM decides to build them that way.


What would probably work, and give an incentive for more than just one person in a party to have craft, is that when you take Craft as a trained skill you choose one or two categories of items. You get one more category when you hit Expert, Master and Legend. There is then added a 1st or 2nd level skill feat to add two more categories.

Simple enough, preserves the core of it while adding a bit more verisimilitude. :)


I love me some verisimilitude, and the current way crafting is set up. There is using the Specialty Crafting feat, but that is just a +2. Not much difference, even factoring in crit fail/success.

On the other hand, making someone who can craft all the things sounds fun. I would like to see the craft skill be de-generalized, but it could be fun to see a feat that let you craft other things. There are a lot of knobs to turn in terms of balance. # of other craft areas. crafting at a -X penalty, or at Y less proficiency level.


I could see a "handy" feat that allowed untrained repair attempts at repairing "whatever you get your hands on." (With the normal untrained penalty.)

Edit: At least then it's a specific character design choice. And not an inexplicable default ability of everyone in the world.

Edit 2: I created a New Thread to discuss this direction. The more I think about it, the more I like the Skill-Feat-Unlocks-Untrained-Use idea...


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One issue with "I can craft anything" is that really it's "I can craft anything provided I have someone's drawing and instructions tell me how to do it." You're not (without another feat) some creative genius making anything you can imagine, you're an extra skilled Ikea customer.


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Xenocrat wrote:
One issue with "I can craft anything" is that really it's "I can craft anything provided I have someone's drawing and instructions tell me how to do it." You're not (without another feat) some creative genius making anything you can imagine, you're an extra skilled Ikea customer.

Yes, but you can reverse engineer anything to get the formula. So everyone is more a genius level tinker. (Give Dorothy, the master basketweaver, a master level katana, and she can break it down, create a plan and forge up a few new ones.)

And the alchemical identification use doesn't even require a formula. Every craftsman moonlights as a chemist. :P


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

How about keeping the combined skill but gating each crafting specialisation beyond basic level with a skill feat?

Joe is a master craftsman. He has Master proficiency in the Crafting skill and the Craft (weapons) and Craft (armour) feats. He can still craft other things at a fair level, because some of the skills are transferable and he's learned how to be careful, but he's only a master when it comes to weapons and armour.

This fits with the way PF2e is treating proficiencies and feats. If our fictional craftsman turned his hand to making pottery, ships or sushi, he'd get his full roll - because he's learned how to be careful and diligent when crafting - but the quality of the items is limited to the same basic level as somebody who's only trained.

Exactly how finely you slice the crafting skill feats up is a question to play with, but it should probably be a shorter list than the current one.


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sadie wrote:
How about keeping the combined skill but gating each crafting specialisation beyond basic level with a skill feat?

That would work too. I think anything that makes it more granular and reintroduces a bit of realism would fix it.

I actually came up with a skill system fix that works perfectly for my purposes. It brings back verisimilitude and still gives the players the ability to do the existing "all the things" approach by making it an intentional character choice (instead of a worldwide default). And it doesn't require mucking with the math under the hood.

For those of us who value in-fiction realism, it turns out that the only two major issues with skills are (somehow) parceling out Craft and Perform to be more in line with Lore. And then controlling which activities are available untrained.

I just edited the skills summary table in Acrobat and moved the lines around to match the particulars of my game world. That, plus a couple feats literally fixes the whole thing!

The thread is here for anyone who's interested.


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Not to mention that one’s skill at every form of Crafting is based on INT. So Wizards make the best blacksmiths because we all know how blacksmiths are famed for their intensely bookish nature...

And I personally dislike how long it takes to craft things with this system. At 3rd level, a character can start making Expert level equipment for his party. If I want to upgrade my standard 10 sp longsword to Expert (350 sp value), it’s gonna take me a month and a half (350-10=340; half up front means 170 sp remains to be crafted after the initial 4 days time; at 4 sp value per day, that’s 42.5 days (170/4=42.5); tack that onto those original 4 days and you’re looking at 46.5 days for one longsword). If I want to help out each member of my four-PC group with a weapon or suit of armor (light or medium), then we need to take a six-month hiatus from adventuring because we hit 3rd level.

Of course, I’ve heard all the rationales about how adventurers aren’t supposed to be crafters, the crafting rules aren’t made to benefit adventurers, etc. but I would argue that some players, myself and several members of my gaming group included, happen to enjoy playing crafting-type characters so why NOT make crafting rules that DO support that play style as valid and fun?

EDIT: And yes, I understand the difference in time can be made up for by paying the difference in cash. It’s an interesting mechanic but if the group is cash-poor (as our group historically is) and crafting their own goods because it’s the only way they can afford decent gear, it leaves one in a bit of a pickle.


ArchAnjel wrote:
Of course, I’ve heard all the rationales about how adventurers aren’t supposed to be crafters, the crafting rules aren’t made to benefit adventurers, etc. but I would argue that some players, myself and several members of my gaming group included, happen to enjoy playing crafting-type characters so why NOT make crafting rules that DO support that play style as valid and fun?

Not only is the character concept of the weaponmaster forging their own weapons really cool, but to add on to your point, only the Barbarian and Monk do not have Crafting as a Signature Skill. This clearly shows to me that Paizo intends players to be able to craft if they so choose.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
John Teixeira wrote:
ArchAnjel wrote:
Of course, I’ve heard all the rationales about how adventurers aren’t supposed to be crafters, the crafting rules aren’t made to benefit adventurers, etc. but I would argue that some players, myself and several members of my gaming group included, happen to enjoy playing crafting-type characters so why NOT make crafting rules that DO support that play style as valid and fun?
Not only is the character concept of the weaponmaster forging their own weapons really cool, but to add on to your point, only the Barbarian and Monk do not have Crafting as a Signature Skill. This clearly shows to me that Paizo intends players to be able to craft if they so choose.

That's strange. If I had to name two traditions of people in the real world who typically made their own stuff, it would be barbarians and monks.

Those living away from civilisation have to be able to make anything they use. They wouldn't rival the greatest craftsmen, but they'd generally be competent at making a lot of things. This of course depends what sort of barbarian you're playing.

Monks were some of the most creative people in medieval cultures. Weaving clothes, brewing beer, etc were things that monks and nuns could do in relative isolation and use to support the community. This of course depends what sort of monk you're playing.


Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
sadie wrote:
Monks were some of the most creative people in medieval cultures. Weaving clothes, brewing beer, etc were things that monks and nuns could do in relative isolation and use to support the community. This of course depends what sort of monk you're playing.

"Monk" in the European tradition is a very different animal from the "monk" of the oriental tradition. Which is not to say the latter were not good crafters. They probably were.


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Lucid Blue wrote:

Untrained use isn't the issue. I'm actually okay with that part. Any untrained person can attempt to repair something. But they probably suck at it. (Though this is another place where +1/level starts to creep in to weird effect, since a high level person can suddenly make better repairs to any object in the world.)

The big problem is that once you are trained, you are trained at EVERYTHING. They gated item quality behind proficiency rank. Which helps a little. But it also highlights the absurd side...

Consider this:

During an adventure, I find the formula for a Master level katana.

Back in town, we have a swordsmith, Hattori Hanzo. He's an expert with 30 years experience forging katanas.

Unfortunately, Hattori can't help. He's not a master. He can't forge that sword.

But all is not lost, because Dorothy lives down the street. And she is a master level basketweaver. She's never made a sword before. Can barely lift a hammer.

Not to worry. She's a master. So I hand her the plans, rent a forge, and she whips up the master level katana of my dreams.

Step aside Hattori. Dorothy is gonna show you how to make a TRUE samurai weapon!

IMO, that's because Dorothy isn't proficient in Crafting, she's a master of Lore:Basketweaving.

Lore is the new Profession skill (which I admit confused me at first too). As evidence, see the Blacksmith background (p 38) and the Experienced Professional feat (p 165). It is odd, since Lore doesn't indicate that crafting is possible, but given that it is defined that you can earn a living using your lore, and Lore: Smithing is a thing (and moreover the Blacksmith background talks about having learned to craft armor and weapons), that does appear to be the intent as far as I can tell.

Crafting as a skill is arguably reserved for polymaths (such as PCs) rather than any NPC capable of making something of value. Presumably, the same can be said about Performance. Your average NPC should instead have a Lore specialization.


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I don't see the problem with Craft being a make-anything skill, because the kinds of characters who are built as PCs and given full access to Craft anything by the GM are the kinds of characters who can make anything anyway. A level 10 PC with master or legendary rank in Craft isn't a historical artisan, he's a medieval-aesthetic Tony Stark.


Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

How would a level 10 PC gain legendary rank in Craft? Doesn't that only come in at level 15?


Ironeyess wrote:
Crafting as a skill is arguably reserved for polymaths (such as PCs) rather than any NPC capable of making something of value. Presumably, the same can be said about Performance. Your average NPC should instead have a Lore specialization.

I don't think PCs should be allowed to craft everything without a Lore.

Crafting can be the catchall skill, but Lore can be the gateway to only craft what you got Lore training into. This applies especially to the Craft Magic Items talent otherwise you can craft swords, armors, rings, staves, wands and potions with a single skill, which makes no sense.

You should select a Lore skill to craft specialized objects or you can take Crafting multiple times (like you do with Lore). I certainly don't expect the crafting catchall without lore gatekeeping to make it to release.


Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

The DM can control what things a crafter can craft by controlling what formulas the crafter is able to find or buy. That said, tying crafting to lore may have some merit.


Formulas can't be the gatekeepers because any magic item can be reverse engineered to get the formula.

A PC that select the crafting must choose which kind of stuff he/she wants to craft, they cannot just craft everything. It makes no sense. Potions must be separate for instance from swords and armor. Wands and Rings can go together, but not with boots or leather armor or bows.


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I personally don't think craft should exist at all as a skill. It's a purely downtime activity, so shouldn't ever need to be rolled for or can be easily just rolled into other skills. Same with perform.
Lore should also be just one skill, with the redundant uses (magic lore, specific god lore etc) rolled into their relevant other skills


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I think its kinda neat that you can learn to craft anything given instructions or an example to deconstruct. Of course, I also like a lot of the +level to everything changes (like everyone learning to carry a tune or identify dragons or not get hit in a fight). It is a refreshing change for me.


Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Ghilteras wrote:
Formulas can't be the gatekeepers because any magic item can be reverse engineered to get the formula.

If the GM allows it.

Ghilteras wrote:
A PC that select the crafting must choose which kind of stuff he/she wants to craft, they cannot just craft everything. It makes no sense. Potions must be separate for instance from swords and armor. Wands and Rings can go together, but not with boots or leather armor or bows.

You seem to be suggesting a change in the rules. You're certainly not stating what is now the case, because any crafter can craft any standard item. Magical items require the Magical Crafting feat, and with that feat, the crafter can make any magical item, so long as he provides for the casting of any spells involved and provides any runes required.

There are specializations for crafting, but that just gives the crafter a circumstantial bonus to crafting those items for which he has the specialization.


Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
CommanderCoyler wrote:

I personally don't think craft should exist at all as a skill. It's a purely downtime activity, so shouldn't ever need to be rolled for or can be easily just rolled into other skills. Same with perform.

Lore should also be just one skill, with the redundant uses (magic lore, specific god lore etc) rolled into their relevant other skills

I suspect that Paizo is trying to make downtime a more integral part of the game — as IMO they should. I do recognize that some players think downtime is wasted time, and that *all* their time should be spent in dungeons killing monsters and gathering treasure. Even as a kid, I would have found that to get pretty boring after a while.


Mark Seifter just answered this on the official Paizo Twitch. It does not look like they will change crafting for now, which is a really underwhelming answer as this thread clearly showed how incomplete the system is, but I guess they have bigger fish to fry considering the major problems stirred by no out of combat healing, +1/lvl to everything, resonance etc. etc.

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