It's 5e ritual casting for every spell in the game in exchange for wasting the slot. Unless this game is drastically different then the feat will trivialize preparation. It takes 10 minutes to use in 5e too.
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Doesn't seem so bad, and each attempt takes 10 minutes.
It creates a paradigm where any event where the GM doesn't put the party on a strict timer the Wizard essentially has his entire spell book available to cast spontaneously. Wizards were pretty busted in PF1, but I don't think there were any level 4 options for the Wizard that limit the kind of stories a GM can tell that severely.
Doesn't seem so bad, and each attempt takes 10 minutes.It creates a paradigm where any event where the GM doesn't put the party on a strict timer the Wizard essentially has his entire spell book available to cast spontaneously. Wizards were pretty busted in PF1, but I don't think there were any level 4 options for the Wizard that limit the kind of stories a GM can tell that severely.
Quick Study on the Arcanist available level 1 and was a full round action so you could reasonably swap in the middle of combat.
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Quick Study was broken too (I would know, I played an Arcanist with it and regularly pissed off PFS GM's) and as redpandamage says Quick Preparation is better because it can be used infinitely and without dipping into a resource pool you use for other stuff.
Doesn't seem so bad, and each attempt takes 10 minutes.It creates a paradigm where any event where the GM doesn't put the party on a strict timer the Wizard essentially has his entire spell book available to cast spontaneously. Wizards were pretty busted in PF1, but I don't think there were any level 4 options for the Wizard that limit the kind of stories a GM can tell that severely.
How is this any different from a PF1 wizard leaving a slot or two open every day? They could then spend 15 minutes and have any spell in their spell book available to cast.
The only difference I see here is that the PF2 wizard doesn't have to choose between "Do I stay flexible or do I ensure I actually have something to do?", which seems like a good choice to not have to make.
Leaving slots open is different from a wizard shuffling around already-filled slots, thus letting the wizard be prepared for any situation.
How is leaving slots open not still letting the wizard be prepared for any situation?
Ok, I can see what you're saying. But does that mean your premise is that a wizard should have to allocate spell slots between "useful in combat" and "useful out of combat" each morning? With the ability to make an out of combat slot an in combat one if necessary?
How is that fun? That's a large part of why I never wanted to play a prepared caster. I either didn't prep combat spells, and had very little to do in a fight, or I prepped buff and combat spells, and didn't have the slots for misc. utility ones.
What's so bad about letting the wizard be able to do both?
No bonus spells from ability scores, max of 3 per level, plus 1 more for specialists. So, yeah. On the other hand, Spells seem to be pretty uniformly nerfed, so there's that.
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Ok, I can see what you're saying. But does that mean your premise is that a wizard should have to allocate spell slots between "useful in combat" and "useful out of combat" each morning? With the ability to make an out of combat slot an in combat one if necessary?
How is that fun? That's a large part of why I never wanted to play a prepared caster. I either didn't prep combat spells, and had very little to do in a fight, or I prepped buff and combat spells, and didn't have the slots for misc. utility ones.
What's so bad about letting the wizard be able to do both?
I think the biggest problem is that at a basic level (at least as I understand the classes) is with class roles.
Wizards can theoretically know every spell in the game world but must choose each morning what they think will be useful. Splitting their castable spells between combat and utility.
Sorcerers can only know a small handful of spells at each level but have more flexibility to cast them. Sorcerers often have many more combat focused spells with little utility.
With this feat you now give wizards the ability to just prepare a bunch of combat spells in the morning and as soon as you need a utility spell just spend a few minutes and trade out that extra heightened fireball for it. This wont always be possible but as someone mentioned above unless the GM has you on a specific timeline, it will often be possible.
At a certain point you have to ask why would anyone make a sorcerer?
I’ll have to look over the class when I get to work in a bit, but doesn’t Wizard have significantly less spells they can cast per day than they had in 1st?
Not only that, it costs a lot more to scribe spells, and you have to find/get permission for uncommon ones. Wizards won't have as many options to swap to in their book.
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The problem is that single level 4 feat completely busts the prepared/spontaneous paradigm. It turns a wizard into a prepared caster in combat and time crunch scenarios but a spontaneous caster when time isn't a factor. On top of that, they can "spontaneously heighten" their entire spell book anytime they use this. They're better at spontaneous heighten than sorcerers and bards. At the very least, it should be closer to a lvl 14 or lvl 16 feat if not removed entirely. It completely negates one of the weaknesses of prepared casting while spontaneous continues to get the shaft.
I think it’s necessary because they have so few spells prepared and their flexibility is accordingly reduced. Utility spells are kind of bad, it lets the Wizard use one if and only if it’s worth dropping a (also kind of weak) combat spell.
It completely negates one of the weaknesses of prepared casting while spontaneous continues to get the shaft.
It was pointed out to me that there's a 4th level feat for the sorcerer that makes them a little bit more prep-y. Its the one that lets them (in the morning) take a scroll and go "I know this spell today."
Which, honestly, is a really cool feat for a sorcerer. Makes them just that tiny extra bit more flexible, but doesn't really step on the wizard's toes any. The wizard feat, otoh makes the wizard say, "Hold my beer."
Ok, I can see what you're saying. But does that mean your premise is that a wizard should have to allocate spell slots between "useful in combat" and "useful out of combat" each morning? With the ability to make an out of combat slot an in combat one if necessary?
How is that fun? That's a large part of why I never wanted to play a prepared caster. I either didn't prep combat spells, and had very little to do in a fight, or I prepped buff and combat spells, and didn't have the slots for misc. utility ones.
What's so bad about letting the wizard be able to do both?
I think the biggest problem is that at a basic level (at least as I understand the classes) is with class roles.
Wizards can theoretically know every spell in the game world but must choose each morning what they think will be useful. Splitting their castable spells between combat and utility.
Sorcerers can only know a small handful of spells at each level but have more flexibility to cast them. Sorcerers often have many more combat focused spells with little utility.
With this feat you now give wizards the ability to just prepare a bunch of combat spells in the morning and as soon as you need a utility spell just spend a few minutes and trade out that extra heightened fireball for it. This wont always be possible but as someone mentioned above unless the GM has you on a specific timeline, it will often be possible.
At a certain point you have to ask why would anyone make a sorcerer?
This is reaching a point where you just need the GM to use common sense (which is, admittedly, dangerous). You can't just sit around in a dungeon for 10 minutes while the wizard is meditating on his spellbook without consequences. Are there no patrols? Is there no wildlife? Hell, even if they acknowledge that, is the rest of the party going to keep escorting this maniac out of the dungeon so he can swap spells in peace every time the situation changes slightly? Continuously entering and exiting poses its own risks.
This is also weaker than leaving a spell slot open was, since it served the same purpose but didn't have a feat tax. And the ability to swap a lot isn't all that great; once you've swapped to the spell you need -- and you probably don't need to do this more than once a day -- swapping further is extremely low value. Factoring all this in, 1e's blank slots are far superior.
You also need to actually have the spell you need, which is not as free given the current cost of buying spells. And I echo the mentions of the lower amount of spells the wizard can prepare making pure utility spells less attractive.
I think we will need to see this one in play. It will be a good one to keep an eye on.
for those who think that the feat is ok:
just imagine that sorcs had a feat that allowed you to swap spells known in 10minutes unlimited times/day.
there's simply no reason to roll spontaneous arcane caster atm.
My only hope is that they lost a 1 in editing and it was supposed to be a 14level feat, which sounds about reasonable (even strong) for such an ability (given the universal rise of levels requirements in general in pf2)
A Sorcerer would be able to choose costlessly from all common spells. A Wizard is limited to what’s in his book. It’s a real limit. The Wizard is also taking a chance on fringe spells that he might otherwise never use. A competent Sorcerer can be very confident of being able to productively use all of her slots every day.
And this is mostly a party benefit, not a player benefit. It allows the Wizard to be the Teleport-bot or Water Breathing-bot. No one envies the Cleric his Heal-bot role.
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It's not overpowered, and it will almost never get used if the player knows how to choose spells. Arcanist in PF1 have a similar ability that only takes a full round action. Over the course of a 17 level AP i used it 3 times. If I end up using it a lot it just means I'm bad at spell selection, or Ive run into too many situations that can likely only be solved by that specific spell, and that's a bigger problem than the ability to switch spells.
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The alternative to letting the Wizard do this is having everyone go “welp, I guess we're screwed until tomorrow, let’s go take a nap.” Fun!
And it’s not free, it costs the most precious currency in the game, a class feat.
Your previous edition knowledge is useless. Go look at the spell costs and difficulty to learn new spells under the Arcana skill entry.
having a single class providing all the answers is NOT the correct "party benefit" it's actually the party detriment since whoever plays the wizard ends up being the player who finds all the answers, and not many people enjoy playing the "follower of a godwizard"
yes, giving access to spellswapping to sorc, IS ridiculous, that was my point. It's equally ridiculous for the wizard because "any competent wizard can be sufficiently prepared and use all of his prepared spells in a day" already.
the thing is, the ability has ZERO COST. It really is one of the strongest arcanist exploits in steroids (instead of fullround it's 10mins, which is 100% trivial in exploration mode which is where this is intended) and completely free as opposed to running off a resource.
Wizard already has a resource, why not spend that for such a ridiculous benefit?
p.s. you make it sound like a wizard's spellbook barely has any spells in it. in all of my playthroughs in previous editions, wizard spellbooks were brimming with options, you would...
IT's worth looking at the difference in cost between the two editions.
0 5 gp
1 10 gp
2 40 gp
3 90 gp
4 160 gp
5 250 gp
6 360 gp
7 490 gp
8 640 gp
9 810 gp
Cantrip 20 sp
1st 20 sp
2nd 60 sp
3rd 160 sp
4th 360 sp
5th 700 sp
6th 1,400 sp
7th 3,030 sp
8th 6,500 sp
9th 15,000 sp
10th* 70,000 sp
Always having the right spell is significantly more expensive in PF2, given that PF2 runs on the silver standard. Costs start ballooning very fast. Maybe not fast enough, mind, but still very appreciably fast.
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Fun fact: it’s actually cheaper to hire someone to cast the spell you want than it would be to learn the spell yourself and cast it once.
are we somehow assuming that an, let's say 8th-9th level party, has never battled an enemy wizard and stolen their spellbook? Because that's what always happens in our party at some point (multiple times in fact)
yes, stuff is mor expensive, and yes, that will limit godwizards a bit, but that's like using an offroad to fix an airplane route.
Of course. But you still need to learn the spell and pay the costs to take advantage of the feat we're discussing here. While you can attempt to prepare from someone else's at the start of the day, this feat specifies that it's from your spellbook.
Also worth noting that Sorc seems to be able to perform the same process that Wiz does to add spells to spellbook in order to swap out their spells known. Really big option.
You an use captured spell books to prepare spells, but you have to succeed at an Arcana check for every spell, and they don't count as your spells in your book for purposes of this feat (see pg 145, "Borrow an Arcane Spell"). If you want them to count you have to spend the money.
haven't yet bothered with sorcs all that much, but isn't that basically retraining? aka taing weeks? that's certainly not the same if that's the case
It's the exact same use of arcana as writing something into your spellbook. Check the "Learn an Arcane Spell" option. I might be misreading it (maybe it only adds it to your spell list or something like that? That's probable, and my apologies if I was wrong -- I've been awake a LONG time as of now)
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haven't yet bothered with sorcs all that much, but isn't that basically retraining? aka taing weeks? that's certainly not the same if that's the caseare we somehow assuming that an, let's say 8th-9th level party, has never battled an enemy wizard and stolen their spellbook? Because that's what always happens in our party at some point (multiple times in fact)
yes, stuff is mor expensive, and yes, that will limit godwizards a bit, but that's like using an offroad to fix an airplane route.
Of course. But you still need to learn the spell and pay the costs to take advantage of the feat we're discussing here. While you can attempt to prepare from someone else's at the start of the day, this feat specifies that it's from your spellbook.
Also worth noting that Sorc seems to be able to perform the same process that Wiz does to add spells to spellbook in order to swap out their spells known. Really big option.
À sorcerer can only change a spell by retraining. The skill allows you to add uncommon or rarer spell to the list of spell you can learn or retrain a spell into, not to be confused with his spell known.
The problem is that single level 4 feat completely busts the prepared/spontaneous paradigm. It turns a wizard into a prepared caster in combat and time crunch scenarios but a spontaneous caster when time isn't a factor. On top of that, they can "spontaneously heighten" their entire spell book anytime they use this. They're better at spontaneous heighten than sorcerers and bards. At the very least, it should be closer to a lvl 14 or lvl 16 feat if not removed entirely. It completely negates one of the weaknesses of prepared casting while spontaneous continues to get the shaft.
And given the very short durations on many buff spells, there is little incentive to try and do as many rooms as possible before calling for a break.
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This is reaching a point where you just need the GM to use common sense (which is, admittedly, dangerous). You can't just sit around in a dungeon for 10 minutes while the wizard is meditating on his spellbook without consequences. Are there no patrols? Is there no wildlife? Hell, even if they acknowledge that, is the rest of the party going to keep escorting this maniac out of the dungeon so he can swap spells in peace every time the situation changes slightly? Continuously...
If you read the official AP's from Paizo, then the answer is "yes, you can totally sit all day on your duff in dungeons and do whatever, as long as you move three rooms back." Because monsters seldomly move from their rooms. The dungeons with active patrols and so on are very few and far between.
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This is reaching a point where you just need the GM to use common sense (which is, admittedly, dangerous). You can't just sit around in a dungeon for 10 minutes while the wizard is meditating on his spellbook without consequences. Are there no patrols? Is there no wildlife? Hell, even if they acknowledge that, is the rest of the party going to keep escorting this maniac out of the dungeon so he can swap spells in peace every time the situation changes slightly? Continuously...If you read the official AP's from Paizo, then the answer is "yes, you can totally sit all day on your duff in dungeons and do whatever, as long as you move three rooms back." Because monsters seldomly move from their rooms. The dungeons with active patrols and so on are very few and far between.
That's what I mean about common sense, though.
Combat is loud. Extremely loud. If you're forgetting that a lot of the dungeon has a shot of hearing you if you start clanging swords around, that's an issue.
Certainly, not -every- dungeon has active patrols, and not every dungeon has monsters willing to leave their rooms, but in the vast majority of cases, if an intelligent dungeon inhabitant hears combat, the party is probably going to end up on something of a timer as those inhabitants start moving to check it out. Same goes if they alert the wrong person. (I still well remember my party entering the boss room in Catacombs of Wrath first, then just getting slammed by everyone the boss could alert arriving in waves.) While it's also your job to exercise "don't penalize the party for making mistakes they couldn't have known to avoid," you've also got to play the enemies out in a reasonable fashion.
Also worth noting that if enemies won't or shouldn't leave their rooms, there's usually a good reason (forge at hook mountain is loud and full of clanging noises anyways, so enemies there probably wouldn't hear combat at the entrance; bosses taking time to buff once the complex is on alert; that sort of thing).
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This is reaching a point where you just need the GM to use common sense (which is, admittedly, dangerous). You can't just sit around in a dungeon for 10 minutes while the wizard is meditating on his spellbook without consequences. Are there no patrols? Is there no wildlife? Hell, even if they acknowledge that, is the rest of the party going to keep escorting this maniac out of the dungeon so he can swap spells in peace every time the situation changes slightly? Continuously...If you read the official AP's from Paizo, then the answer is "yes, you can totally sit all day on your duff in dungeons and do whatever, as long as you move three rooms back." Because monsters seldomly move from their rooms. The dungeons with active patrols and so on are very few and far between.That's what I mean about common sense, though.
Combat is loud. Extremely loud. If you're forgetting that a lot of the dungeon has a shot of hearing you if you start clanging swords around, that's an issue.
Certainly, not -every- dungeon has active patrols, and not every dungeon has monsters willing to leave their rooms, but in the vast majority of cases, if an intelligent dungeon inhabitant hears combat, the party is probably going to end up on something of a timer as those inhabitants start moving to check it out. Same goes if they alert the wrong person. (I still well remember my party entering the boss room in Catacombs of Wrath first, then just getting slammed by everyone the boss could alert arriving in waves.) While it's also your job to exercise "don't penalize the party for making mistakes they couldn't have known to avoid," you've also got to play the enemies out in a reasonable fashion.
Also worth noting that if enemies won't or shouldn't leave their rooms, there's usually a good reason (forge at hook mountain is loud and full of clanging noises anyways, so enemies there probably wouldn't hear combat at the entrance; bosses taking time to buff once the...
Spending 10 minutes, even in a dungeon, is nothing. It takes that long to search a room properly. At best the wizard will just not help with the search and will change up spells.
Also something is overpowered if it requires the DM to be constantly thinking of a way to not let the player use it as printed.
This is reaching a point where you just need the GM to use common sense (which is, admittedly, dangerous). You can't just sit around in a dungeon for 10 minutes while the wizard is meditating on his spellbook without consequences. Are there no patrols? Is there no wildlife? Hell, even if they acknowledge that, is the rest of the party going to keep escorting this maniac out of the dungeon so he can swap spells in peace every time the situation changes slightly? Continuously...If you read the official AP's from Paizo, then the answer is "yes, you can totally sit all day on your duff in dungeons and do whatever, as long as you move three rooms back." Because monsters seldomly move from their rooms. The dungeons with active patrols and so on are very few and far between.That's what I mean about common sense, though.
Combat is loud. Extremely loud. If you're forgetting that a lot of the dungeon has a shot of hearing you if you start clanging swords around, that's an issue.
Certainly, not -every- dungeon has active patrols, and not every dungeon has monsters willing to leave their rooms, but in the vast majority of cases, if an intelligent dungeon inhabitant hears combat, the party is probably going to end up on something of a timer as those inhabitants start moving to check it out. Same goes if they alert the wrong person. (I still well remember my party entering the boss room in Catacombs of Wrath first, then just getting slammed by everyone the boss could alert arriving in waves.) While it's also your job to exercise "don't penalize the party for making mistakes they couldn't have known to avoid," you've also got to play the enemies out in a reasonable fashion.
Also worth noting that if enemies won't or shouldn't leave their rooms, there's usually a good reason (forge at hook mountain is loud and full of clanging noises anyways, so enemies there probably wouldn't hear combat at the entrance; bosses taking time to buff once the...
Even so let's think about the scenarios where it does help. When you wake in the city you prepare skills that are good in the city. As you set of in your wagon or whatever you prepare skills that are good on the road. As you sit outside the dungeon you prepare skills that are good in a dungeon. When you know you are going to infiltrate a castle before you get to the castle but after you prepare your daily allotment of spells etc. There are so many time where you can hyper specialize for the mission at hand. Think about the poor dm that is trying to challenge the group with some fun puzzle s%@&. By which I mean the puzzle of getting into a castle or some such thing.
Edit: lol the word filter randomizes each time you refresh.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Even so let's think about the scenarios where it does help. When you wake in the city you prepare skills that are good in the city. As you set of in your wagon or whatever you prepare skills that are good on the road. As you sit outside the dungeon you prepare skills that are good in a dungeon. When you know you are going to infiltrate a castle before you get to the castle but after you prepare your daily allotment of spells etc. There are so many time where you can hyper specialize for the mission at hand. Think about the poor dm that is trying to challenge the group with some fun puzzle s+@@. By which I mean the puzzle of getting into a castle or some such thing.
Edit: lol the word filter randomizes each time you refresh.
Those are scenarios where every group I've been in legitimately just says, "we're doing this s&~~ tomorrow."
As far as I know, that's how that's normally handled. If your spellcasters don't have the right spells, you just wait until the next day, because that's a lot like being down a party member. If anything, the wizard changing out his slots like this is an *improvement* over having the entire party wait a day for the wizard.
EDIT:
Spending 10 minutes, even in a dungeon, is nothing. It takes that long to search a room properly. At best the wizard will just not help with the search and will change up spells.
Also something is overpowered if it requires the DM to be constantly thinking of a way to not let the player use it as printed.
10 minutes is a long time in any dangerous place -- especially in PF1 if you were trying to keep up min/lvl buffs. Searching for treasure after clearing the place has usually been eminently safer. Nothing here really changes that. Most of my groups would maybe do a quick glanceover of a room first time through, and not do a thorough search until it was obviously safe unless they had no choice and had to search thoroughly to advance.
Also, none of what I said is the DM trying to hard prevent abuse (preventing abuse would be more like the DM heavily regulating spell availability, etc., though that's not unusual anyways). What I talked about is just the DM playing the dungeon logically and playing the enemies like they have an INT higher than 2.
Even so let's think about the scenarios where it does help. When you wake in the city you prepare skills that are good in the city. As you set of in your wagon or whatever you prepare skills that are good on the road. As you sit outside the dungeon you prepare skills that are good in a dungeon. When you know you are going to infiltrate a castle before you get to the castle but after you prepare your daily allotment of spells etc. There are so many time where you can hyper specialize for the mission at hand. Think about the poor dm that is trying to challenge the group with some fun puzzle s+@@. By which I mean the puzzle of getting into a castle or some such thing.
Edit: lol the word filter randomizes each time you refresh.Those are scenarios where every group I've been in legitimately just says, "we're doing this s*@@ tomorrow."
As far as I know, that's how that's normally handled. If your spellcasters don't have the right spells, you just wait until the next day, because that's a lot like being down a party member. If anything, the wizard changing out his slots like this is an *improvement* over having the entire party wait a day for the wizard.
EDIT:
Spending 10 minutes, even in a dungeon, is nothing. It takes that long to search a room properly. At best the wizard will just not help with the search and will change up spells.
Also something is overpowered if it requires the DM to be constantly thinking of a way to not let the player use it as printed.
10 minutes is a long time in any dangerous place -- especially in PF1 if you were trying to keep up min/lvl buffs. Searching for treasure after clearing the place has usually been eminently safer. Nothing here really changes that. Most of my groups would maybe do a quick glanceover of a room first time through, and not do a thorough search until it was obviously safe unless they had no choice and had to search thoroughly to advance.
Also, none of what I said is the DM...
Why would it be an improvement over have to wait a day for the wizard? If waiting a day has no downside then waiting a day is as simple as saying "we wait a day lol" and then you move on. If there is a drawback to waiting a day then that where quick prep is op. But to begin with I wouldn't allow them to wait a day because it's blatant metagaming. Don't they have a reason to press on? Even if they are just looking for fame and glory saying "meh I'll do it tomorrow" does not sound like that of a future hero. Remember, I wanted to challenge the group. The wizard not having the absolute perfect spell setup to get into the castle is what I wanted.
Imagine quick retraining. Each time I announce a castle siege the martials of the group takes 10 to retrain their skill sets to better suit the task at hand. The point of preparing spells is so you have to do a good job at well preparing for the tasks ahead. The point of retraining skills taking a long time is so that you can't just do it to always match the tasks ahead. For some reason I'm sure you wouldn't be fine with the lvl 4 feat quick retraining.
min per lvl buffs no longer exists.
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The point is that for EVERY scenario where you don't have a hard 10 min cap or are in combat, the lvl 4+ wizard can "spontaneously" prep for the scenario in front of them. Spell rarity helps, but that mostly doesn't apply until spell level 6+. Wizards can still spontaneously heighten their entire spell book better than a sorcerer can. Everybody knows prepared > spontaneous 80+% of the time, but the ability for wizards to spend 10 mins to heighten any and all of their spells at any time puts the wizard MILES ahead of the sorcerer.
Spontaneous casting was nerfed into the ground because of "choice paralysis" yet prepared casting has MANY more choices and wasn't touched at all.