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We've seen the basics for all the spellcasting classes (druid's preview notwithstanding), and there's some strife over some of the rules.
The gist is that spontaneous spellcasters will have a list of known spells, but can only heighten any two spells known per day, but does so freely; and prepared casters can prepare any number of heightened spells, but are limited by what they prepared for the day.
The strife comes from both threads with respect to how the new inclusion of Heighten spell on all spellcasters now messes with the game. Are spells of the same name considered the same spell? Do spells of the same name but differing levels need to be recorded in both forms as part of resource management on behalf of the players? If so then this isn't heightening the spell, it is merely making it simpler to print, read, and memorize the spell list (not bad, but not what you're selling it as). It is unknown if a wizard will have to pay extra gold or waste extra space in his spellbook to have spells of different levels but the same name, or if sorcerers have to waste two spells known slots. (Perhaps you know?)
The other big issue came in the sorcerers interaction with heightening spells. It is difficult to really understand the whole discussion as it went on for several pages and went on several tangents, but it came down to the devs not wanting too much time gaps in the games while the spellcasters toiled over their large number of options. Analysis Paralysis. Opponents want sorceress to have free access to heightening their spells, to avoid daily preparations and variables.
A potential solution to these issues is taken back to the wizard blog, where there was a rally for a change in the vancian mechanics, exactly like what Paizo published in the arcanist. Take this idea, and apply it to all spellcasters, so their daily potentials are equal, and you only have to learn one set of rules. Remove the need to question how heightening works, and allow all spellcasters to freely heighten from their repertoire of known/prepared spells. With only up to 3 spells/slot level/day, the limitation in resources reduces overall power in the game. In fact, for most of the game it'll also reduce Analysis Paralysis. There simply aren't enough resources there to have such turmoil over.
A Universal Spellcasting mechanic ought to solve most of the issues brought up and is something I think is worth considering during the playtest.
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The gist is that spontaneous spellcasters will have a list of known spells, but can only heighten any two spells known per day, but does so freely; and prepared casters can prepare any number of heightened spells, but are limited by what they prepared for the day.
This is wrong. Sorcerers get such a heightening ability, but Bards do not. There's some reference to a muse ability they can buy with a class feat to get some autoheightening, but it's not an automatic class ability like it is with Sorcerers, and it may not allow them to do it twice or be as flexible once they do purchase it.
The other reason given for spontaneous casters only heightening some spells was; If the sorcerer could automatically heighten any spell known there would be a pressure for them to only pick spells known that could be heightened. By making it so they can only heighten some spells they can feel free to pick up spells that don't heighten without feeling like they are wasting part of their ability.
That reason sounds more convincing to me than the choice paralysis in combat but obviously I don't know one way or the other.
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This is wrong. Sorcerers get such a heightening ability, but Bards do not. There's some reference to a muse ability they can buy with a class feat to get some autoheightening, but it's not an automatic class ability like it is with Sorcerers, and it may not allow them to do it twice or be as flexible once they do purchase it.
The gist is that spontaneous spellcasters will have a list of known spells, but can only heighten any two spells known per day, but does so freely; and prepared casters can prepare any number of heightened spells, but are limited by what they prepared for the day.
The reference to that class feat was to heighten an additional spell, if I recall correctly.
Anyway, I legitimately believe that Paizo's reasoning for not allowing universal heightening is the reason they gave us: analysis paralysis.
This was another reason that Mark gave for the decision not a secondary justification that I came up with.
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This was another reason that Mark gave for the decision not a secondary justification that I came up with.
Anyway, I legitimately believe that Paizo's reasoning for not allowing universal heightening is the reason they gave us: analysis paralysis.
Yes, decisions can have more than one reason behind them.
Edit: Mark's most expansive post was about both analysis paralysis and how much more powerful a sorcerer would be if they could spontaneously heighten any spell.
I don't really think there is an issue here. Just missing pieces and a few misinterpreted preview snippets. With the full rules it won't seem all that confusing or 'strife'-ridden
This is wrong. Sorcerers get such a heightening ability, but Bards do not. There's some reference to a muse ability they can buy with a class feat to get some autoheightening, but it's not an automatic class ability like it is with Sorcerers, and it may not allow them to do it twice or be as flexible once they do purchase it.
The gist is that spontaneous spellcasters will have a list of known spells, but can only heighten any two spells known per day, but does so freely; and prepared casters can prepare any number of heightened spells, but are limited by what they prepared for the day.
Are you sure? This post of Mark's suggests Bards do get some spontaneous heightening, the polymath just gets more.
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The other big issue came in the sorcerers interaction with heightening spells. It is difficult to really understand the whole discussion as it went on for several pages and went on several tangents, but it came down to the devs not wanting too much time gaps in the games while the spellcasters toiled over their large number of options. Analysis Paralysis. Opponents want sorceress to have free access to heightening their spells, to avoid daily preparations and variables.
This is wrong. Analysis paralysis may have been a consideration, but the main reason the sorcerer was not able to freely heighten is that it would make it too powerful.
Consider this: I am a smart player, If I have Free Heightening, here is what would happen.At first level, I get 3 spells known. I pick spells that are heightenable to all subsequent level.
At 3rd level, I pick 3 New (heightenable) spells, plus I get the 3 that are freely heightened from my first level spells, for 6 spells.
At 5th level, I pick 3 new spells, get the 3 heightened 2nd level spells and the 3 heightened 1st level spells for 9 spells.
and so on.
Now for a sorcerer, knowing a spell means being able to cast a spell - not like these wizards who have to prepare slots. So while the 5th level wizard has access to 3x4 = 12 spells (because that is the number of spell slots he has), the sorcerer has access to 3+6+9=18 spells, and the gap widens every couple of levels.
The wizard gets 3 new spell slots every other level, so his spellcastng ability goes up linearly.
The sorcerer would get an exponentially increasing amount every other level (3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18, 21, 24, 27 and if he gets level 10 spells, 30). By the time he is 20th level, the wizard could have 30 spells; the sorcerer 165 spells.
So, to limit it they decided that only 2 could be hightened. This still gives the sorcerer 5 new spells/level (except 1st), making it very powerful if used wisely, and the consensus among the devs is that sorcerer may well be more powerful than the wizard because of it.
Oh, and it only costs a couple of 1st level spells known slots not a great sacrifice for a high level sorcerer.
Did he really say that non-heighten-able spells would be less appealing for sorcerers? If so, where?This was another reason that Mark gave for the decision not a secondary justification that I came up with.
Anyway, I legitimately believe that Paizo's reasoning for not allowing universal heightening is the reason they gave us: analysis paralysis.
It was a bit earlier in the process when they were calling what we now call spontaneous heightening spell lineages or spell lines.
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Spells will most likely count as their lowest level for scribing scrolls. Yes this means spells that heighten get more "value" than those that don't. That's okay.
The reason "all spellcasters may auto-heighten all spells" was thrown off the table is because this removes the factor of Interesting Choices playing a role in the Resource Management of preparing spellbooks or spontaneously using spellslots.
In short, your newest spell shouldn't render your lower-level spells obsolete. Instead, there should be a mechanical incentive to consider using all your spells, even similar ones, in their best circumstance using your slots as currency in the tradeoff.
Otherwise, the game incentive will be to always use the "best" spell over and over, which can get boring.
We'll see if the classes perform this output as theorized.
This cuts both ways. A wizard that only learns spells that can be heightened at every level ALSO knows all of those spells.This is wrong. Analysis paralysis may have been a consideration, but the main reason the sorcerer was not able to freely heighten is that it would make it too powerful.
Consider this: I am a smart player, If I have Free Heightening, here is what would happen.
At first level, I get 3 spells known. I pick spells that are heightenable to all subsequent level.
At 3rd level, I pick 3 New (heightenable) spells, plus I get the 3 that are freely heightened from my first level spells, for 6 spells.
At 5th level, I pick 3 new spells, get the 3 heightened 2nd level spells and the 3 heightened 1st level spells for 9 spells.and so on.
While true, it doesn't matter. The wizard may know the same 165 (or more) spells, but at any one time he can have memorised 4 per spell level. The sorcerer has access to all 165 at all times
This is also assuming that there are enough spells that can be heightened at all levels for this to work. We already know that Fireball can only be cast at levels 3, 5, 7, and 9, for example. Spells that can be heightened at every level are probably not that common, and likely not that useful at higher levels.
I used that as an example of what could be possible, in reality he would probably be able to get only a fraction of that, but that would still be overpowered.
The sorcerer still only has the same number of casts. Ignoring the fact that he likely won't have 165 options, his number of "options" drops significantly after he runs out of spells of a particular level.
Now for a sorcerer, knowing a spell means being able to cast a spell - not like these wizards who have to prepare slots. So while the 5th level wizard has access to 3x4 = 12 spells (because that is the number of spell slots he has), the sorcerer has access to 3+6+9=18 spells, and the gap widens every couple of levels.
The wizard gets 3 new spell slots every other level, so his spellcastng ability goes up linearly.
The sorcerer would get an exponentially increasing amount every other level (3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18, 21, 24, 27 and if he gets level 10 spells, 30). By the time he is 20th level, the wizard could have 30 spells; the sorcerer 165 spells.
So does the wizard. In fact, the wizard will not know exactly how many of any one spell he would need to cast; if he prepares too many, that's a spell slot wasted; too few and he's unprepared.
The sorcerer always casts exactly the amount needed to get the job done (up to the limit of spell slots available), nothing wasted, and never unprepared.Then, you need to realize that a wizard can likely still prepare spells later in the day by leaving slots empty, so the wizards with the same list STILL has all of those options, just gated behind 15 minutes (or 10 minutes with a Class Feat and he doesn't have to leave slots open anymore.
So the difference between a wizard and a sorcerer is that the sorcerer can cast any of those 165 spells any time it is needed, the wizard has to wait 10/15 minutes unless he happens to have them prepped.
ON TOP OF THAT, the wizard can freely learn extra spells, (at GM discretion). So the wizard has EVEN MORE options than the sorcerer, assuming he has 10 minutes to wait.
True, but I'm pretty sure the BBEG is not going to wait 10/15 min while you get the exact spell you need. The wizard has to carefully reconnoitre exactly what he is up against in order to prep the right spells, and if the BBEG throws him a curveball, he's in trouble.
Meanwhile the sorcerer has 165 spells on tap. One of them is bound to be a good choice for the scenario at hand.So the only time the wizard shines is when it is not a time sensitive encounter and it requires an obscure spell the sorcerer most likely doesn't have. I know which one I'd rather have with me.
The existence of scrolls, wands, and staves means that having the right spell at the right time is trivial anyway.
Except that in pf2 you have resonance, limiting the number of times you can use scrolls, wands and staves. Guess what? the sorcerer has an advantage here.
So, to limit it they decided that only 2 could be heightened. This still gives the sorcerer 5 new spells/level (except 1st), making it very powerful if used wisely, and the consensus among the devs is that sorcerer may well be more powerful than the wizard because of it.
Oh, and it only costs a couple of 1st level spells known slots not a great sacrifice for a high level sorcerer.Sure, if he wants 12d4+12 (level 9 magic missile)to be his big blasting spell, instead of something like Meteor Swarm or Disintegrate.
There is a huge concern that every sorcerer's Spontaneous Heightened spells will be Dispel Magic and Summon Monster, because blasting spells don't scale as well as their higher level counterparts and these spells have exponentially more utility that anything else.
Well, If he decides to get Magic Missile as a spontaneous heightened spell, sure, but I am confused. Why would he do this instead of Meteor swarm or Disintegrate? Surely he would do this as well as those two.
And yes, many are concerned that Dispel magic and Summon Monster will be the go-to spells for arcane sorcerers; for Divine it would be Heal and Cure. Not sure what spells are on the other lists, so we will have to wait and see on those.
A lot of loaded argument going on there.
It also ignores the point of this post, universal spell casting mechanics which enable all casters free access to heighten. All spellcasting functions the same way, the only difference is how one derives the spell list.
...It also ignores the point of this post, universal spell casting mechanics which enable all casters free access to heighten. All spellcasting functions the same way, the only difference is how one derives the spell list.
I disagree. The whole point of the argument is that giving free access to heighten is way too powerful for sorcerers. How is that ignoring the point of the thread?
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I disagree. The whole point of the argument is that giving free access to heighten is way too powerful for sorcerers. How is that ignoring the point of the thread?
I believe, from op point of view, the "way too powerful for sorcerers" is kind of a moot point if sorcerers AND wizards are both able to heighten spontaneously.
Now, if you view the ability to spontaneously heighten too powerful for sorcerers AND wizards that is fine.
I disagree. The whole point of the argument is that giving free access to heighten is way too powerful for sorcerers. How is that ignoring the point of the thread?I believe, from op point of view, the "way too powerful for sorcerers" is kind of a moot point if sorcerers AND wizards are both able to heighten spontaneously.
Now, if you view the ability to spontaneously heighten too powerful for sorcerers AND wizards that is fine.
Wizards already can spontaneously heighten their spells known, and it's not op since they are still limited by what they prepare.
But sorcerers don't prepare spells, they are limited only by what they know. Give them free spontaneous heightening and what they know expands exponentially, and so does their power.
One thing that someone pointed out to me was that there are very few spells you'll want the option to cast at all spell levels. Others, you'll swap out as you level for the higher slot version. While this'll burn through your ability to adjust your spells for better higher level options as they come online, a canny player will plan ahead or carry some minor redundancy.
In a similar vein...Has undercasting officially been confirmed?
In a similar vein...Has undercasting officially been confirmed?
It's been confirmed undercasting is not a thing. Mark explained why in the Sorcerer preview.
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A lot of loaded argument going on there.
It also ignores the point of this post, universal spell casting mechanics which enable all casters free access to heighten. All spellcasting functions the same way, the only difference is how one derives the spell list.
master_marshmallow,
Do you understand the reason "unlimited free heighten" was taken off the table?
Wizards already can spontaneously heighten their spells known, and it's not op since they are still limited by what they prepare.Just to get everyone using the same terminology...
Wizards can't spontaneously heighten.
Only sorcerers have that capability (for 2 spells chosen every day).
That's true. The wizard version is called autoheighten, presumably because they can't cast spontaneously. It amounts to the same thing, however.
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That's true. The wizard version is called autoheighten, presumably because they can't cast spontaneously. It amounts to the same thing, however.Just to get everyone using the same terminology...
Wizards can't spontaneously heighten.
Only sorcerers have that capability (for 2 spells chosen every day).
Sorry for my ignorance but what exactly is AutoHeightening?
Is it like the cleric's channel ability to have their additional max heightened Heal spells?Or is this referring to the standard feature that both wizards and sorcerers can prep/know a spell in a higher slot, i.e. prep/know a Magic Missile heightened +2 (for an additional missile/action) in a lvl 3 slot.
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That's true. The wizard version is called autoheighten, presumably because they can't cast spontaneously. It amounts to the same thing, however.Just to get everyone using the same terminology...
Wizards can't spontaneously heighten.
Only sorcerers have that capability (for 2 spells chosen every day).
Sorry for my ignorance but what exactly is AutoHeightening?
Is it like the cleric's channel ability to have their additional max heightened Heal spells?Or is this referring to the standard feature that both wizards and sorcerers can prep/know a spell in a higher slot, i.e. prep/know a Magic Missile heightened +2 (for an additional missile/action) in a lvl 3 slot.
I don't recall anything from the Wizard blog post implying that they can get auto-heightening for their spells - that only happens with things like Cantrips, and that's a universal thing for all spellcasters, or with their Spell Pool, which is entirely separated from spellcasting.
If Wizards want to heighten the effects of their spells, they need to actively prepare them in higher spell levels. They don't get the ability to heighten them on the fly like a Sorcerer.
A lot of loaded argument going on there.
It also ignores the point of this post, universal spell casting mechanics which enable all casters free access to heighten. All spellcasting functions the same way, the only difference is how one derives the spell list.
master_marshmallow,
Do you understand the reason "unlimited free heighten" was taken off the table?
yes
That's true. The wizard version is called autoheighten, presumably because they can't cast spontaneously. It amounts to the same thing, however.Just to get everyone using the same terminology...
Wizards can't spontaneously heighten.
Only sorcerers have that capability (for 2 spells chosen every day).
Sorry for my ignorance but what exactly is AutoHeightening?
Is it like the cleric's channel ability to have their additional max heightened Heal spells?Or is this referring to the standard feature that both wizards and sorcerers can prep/know a spell in a higher slot, i.e. prep/know a Magic Missile heightened +2 (for an additional missile/action) in a lvl 3 slot.
I don't recall anything from the Wizard blog post implying that they can get auto-heightening for their spells - that only happens with things like Cantrips, and that's a universal thing for all spellcasters, or with their Spell Pool, which is entirely separated from spellcasting.
If Wizards want to heighten the effects of their spells, they need to actively prepare them in higher spell levels. They don't get the ability to heighten them on the fly like a Sorcerer.
You're misunderstanding me. auto-heightening means they automatically know the heightened version, they still have to preparethe heightened version, as you say. It amounts to the same thing as spontaneous heightening in the sense that both add to your spells known. The implications of that are, however, entirely different. They cannot heighten them on the fly, unlike the sorcerer. That means they only get the benefit of it if they prepare it, and if they have no knowledge beforehand of what to expect, they may prepare the wrong spells, or not enough.
So, in essence, we agree.
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...It also ignores the point of this post, universal spell casting mechanics which enable all casters free access to heighten. All spellcasting functions the same way, the only difference is how one derives the spell list.I disagree. The whole point of the argument is that giving free access to heighten is way too powerful for sorcerers. How is that ignoring the point of the thread?
Because if you give it to everyone then it cannot be too powerful, and makes the game easier to learn and play.
Spontaneous Heighten seems to be something only someone with savvy knowledge of the system would really get analysis paralysis over, as if a brand new player knows all 165 spells or whatever.
Giving all casters equal potential solves one of the problems (balance). Analysis paralysis I hope is disproved as myth by the play test.
...It also ignores the point of this post, universal spell casting mechanics which enable all casters free access to heighten. All spellcasting functions the same way, the only difference is how one derives the spell list.I disagree. The whole point of the argument is that giving free access to heighten is way too powerful for sorcerers. How is that ignoring the point of the thread?Because if you give it to everyone then it cannot be too powerful, and makes the game easier to learn and play.
Spontaneous Heighten seems to be something only someone with savvy knowledge of the system would really get analysis paralysis over, as if a brand new player knows all 165 spells or whatever.
Giving all casters equal potential solves one of the problems (balance). Analysis paralysis I hope is disproved as myth by the play test.
You seem to be missing the point. If you give it to everyone, only the sorcerer gets the benefit. The wizard is still limited to those spells he prepped, while the sorcerer has access to any of the spells he knows at all times. The only way to even the odds is to make the wizard into a spontaneous caster, at which point there is no real difference between wizard and arcane sorcerer; and all it does is make the wizard/sorcerer way overpowered against, say, the fighter or the rogue.
Edit: Analysis Paralysis is not really the problem here. It may affect some players, but it is not the reason spontaneous heighten wasn't extended to all spells.
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Balance (well interesting balance you can obviously have a perfectly balanced system where everything operates the same but it is less involved) is about pro's and con's. You are advocating adding a massive Pro to the Sorcerer saying "it cannot be too powerful" without even seeing if they are balanced in the first place. That is seriously short sighted.
Except its not if we go arcanist style casting.
Except its not what?Balance (well interesting balance you can obviously have a perfectly balanced system where everything operates the same but it is less involved) is about pro's and con's. You are advocating adding a massive Pro to the Sorcerer saying "it cannot be too powerful" without even seeing if they are balanced in the first place. That is seriously short sighted.Except its not if we go arcanist style casting.Arcanists prepare a set number of spells per day. They can then cast those spells spontaneously using any of their slots.
For example, an Arcanist with 3 1st level slots that prepared Magic Missile, Sleep, and Burning Hands could cast 3 magic missiles, 3 burning hands, one of each spell, etc.
This is how 5e handles wizards.
It is decidedly LESS complex than 3.P's Vancian style casting EVEN THOUGH 5e let's casters freely heighten their spells.
Actually, it's not less complex, but more so.
Wizards have 2 pieces of book-keeping to do with spells: spells known and spell slots used.Sorcerers have 2 pieces of book-keeping: spells known and spell slots used.
Arcanist have 3 pieces of book-keeping: spells known, spells prepared and spells used.
And giving them free spontaneous heightens will make them even more powerful than the sorcerer with free spontaneous heightens, which is scary enough.
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Actually, it's not less complex, but more so.
Wizards have 2 pieces of book-keeping to do with spells: spells known and spell slots used.
Sorcerers have 2 pieces of book-keeping: spells known and spell slots used.
Arcanist have 3 pieces of book-keeping: spells known, spells prepared and spells used.
I think we'll definitely have to agree to disagree on the point of complexity of prepared vs arcanist/5th ed casting.
From my experience its much easier to teach (and play correctly with) arcanist/5th ed casting to new players (especially 5th ed players).
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...It also ignores the point of this post, universal spell casting mechanics which enable all casters free access to heighten. All spellcasting functions the same way, the only difference is how one derives the spell list.I disagree. The whole point of the argument is that giving free access to heighten is way too powerful for sorcerers. How is that ignoring the point of the thread?Because if you give it to everyone then it cannot be too powerful, and makes the game easier to learn and play.
Spontaneous Heighten seems to be something only someone with savvy knowledge of the system would really get analysis paralysis over, as if a brand new player knows all 165 spells or whatever.
Giving all casters equal potential solves one of the problems (balance). Analysis paralysis I hope is disproved as myth by the play test.
You realize that casters need to be balanced against martials too, right? With unrestricted spontaneous heightening the God Wizard/Sorcerer problem would be even more extreme than it was in PF1.
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yesA lot of loaded argument going on there.
It also ignores the point of this post, universal spell casting mechanics which enable all casters free access to heighten. All spellcasting functions the same way, the only difference is how one derives the spell list.
master_marshmallow,
Do you understand the reason "unlimited free heighten" was taken off the table?
ok
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okyesA lot of loaded argument going on there.
It also ignores the point of this post, universal spell casting mechanics which enable all casters free access to heighten. All spellcasting functions the same way, the only difference is how one derives the spell list.
master_marshmallow,
Do you understand the reason "unlimited free heighten" was taken off the table?
good
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goodokyesA lot of loaded argument going on there.
It also ignores the point of this post, universal spell casting mechanics which enable all casters free access to heighten. All spellcasting functions the same way, the only difference is how one derives the spell list.
master_marshmallow,
Do you understand the reason "unlimited free heighten" was taken off the table?
FINE