If dex to damage is a thing it should be an option available to any martial with a little bit of effort. That said I am a little worried about Dex being better than Str in all ways. I hope that Str based armored characters can at least get a few points better AC than pure dex based characters so that they get something in exchange for armor check and speed penalties.
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I would actually in fact like str-rogue to be an option with out throwing away class features and being abysmally under powered.
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Also peeps are thinking way to hard about default for versatile. Whats my reasoning for not doing piercing? uh i'm swinging it in a slashing motion or vice versa.
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If dex to damage is a thing it should be an option available to any martial with a little bit of effort. That said I am a little worried about Dex being better than Str in all ways. I hope that Str based armored characters can at least get a few points better AC than pure dex based characters so that they get something in exchange for armor check and speed penalties.Yeah, Dex has been a bit of an uber-score since 2000, but at least is is not default for Initiative, this time.
During one phase of design where we created "way out there" design docs with analyses that tossed away all the assumptions (just to make sure we weren't thinking too much inside the box, even though we used none of these in the final playtest), I determined what would happen in PF1 if manual dexterity was divorced from agility (footwork and full body motion) into seven stats. By my value analysis, if I recall correctly, agility was still roughly tied for the best stat in the game.
So I'm definitely sympathetic to this concern. One thing that's pretty important is that we make sure we choose a solution that works well with the PF2 ability score and multiclassing system and that is resistant to later design that goes off-script from our design principles and guides in predictable ways. I'm not convinced we have that solution yet (particularly, even if it works for the rogue, the current solution is incredibly vulnerable to somebody inserting a more generic Dex-to-damage option into a later book and unbalancing a variety of non-rogue character builds), but we'll playtest and solicit ideas from you guys and see what we can find!
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Yah game design is hard. I have a lot of opinions but I really appreciate your explaining things. I'll think on this more when the playtest comes out.
I say keep dex to damage as an option for most classes(perhaps free for rogue and possibly roguish classes released later, but i'm good either way) and just try to make sure str has enough reason to be used regularly so that not everyone can ignore it in a party easily.
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I'm still not entirely convinced that Dex-to-Damage is that dangerous as a universal thing. If the most powerful finesse weapon is d6, then it still falls well behind strength builds when considering +Weapons add dice instead of flat numbers. At the very least it seems like something that's not innately more powerful than the cost of a feat.
As for splitting Dex, I think if you're opening up the rabbit hole of breaking apart Dex to Agility and Manual Dexterity, you might as well break apart the rest of the ability scores and put them together in some other way, but that's actually one of the few sacred cows that'd rub me the wrong way if butchered. Because too few stats and you run the risk of the uberstat even more, for lack of granularity, and less variety in build options. Too many stats, and it's cumbersome, and opens up an even greater MAD/SAD divide. While I doubt it's by some great design plan, the six stat system has been refined through the years to largely work as the best medium, at least for this style of game, even if it has some faults that are harder to sand down.
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So, you're not into Comeliness....ha!I'm still not entirely convinced that Dex-to-Damage is that dangerous as a universal thing. If the most powerful finesse weapon is d6, then it still falls well behind strength builds when considering +Weapons add dice instead of flat numbers. At the very least it seems like something that's not innately more powerful than the cost of a feat.
As for splitting Dex, I think if you're opening up the rabbit hole of breaking apart Dex to Agility and Manual Dexterity, you might as well break apart the rest of the ability scores and put them together in some other way, but that's actually one of the few sacred cows that'd rub me the wrong way if butchered. Because too few stats and you run the risk of the uberstat even more, for lack of granularity, and less variety in build options. Too many stats, and it's cumbersome, and opens up an even greater MAD/SAD divide. While I doubt it's by some great design plan, the six stat system has been refined through the years to largely work as the best medium, at least for this style of game, even if it has some faults that are harder to sand down.
The only system I've ever actually played with Comeliness in it was HERO 5e. Given that it was tucked away in UA in 2e (of which I only ever played a little), we just ignored it. In HERO, we also mostly ignored it, but stats are a bit different, there.
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I'm still not entirely convinced that Dex-to-Damage is that dangerous as a universal thing. If the most powerful finesse weapon is d6, then it still falls well behind strength builds when considering +Weapons add dice instead of flat numbers. At the very least it seems like something that's not innately more powerful than the cost of a feat.
As for splitting Dex, I think if you're opening up the rabbit hole of breaking apart Dex to Agility and Manual Dexterity, you might as well break apart the rest of the ability scores and put them together in some other way, but that's actually one of the few sacred cows that'd rub me the wrong way if butchered. Because too few stats and you run the risk of the uberstat even more, for lack of granularity, and less variety in build options. Too many stats, and it's cumbersome, and opens up an even greater MAD/SAD divide. While I doubt it's by some great design plan, the six stat system has been refined through the years to largely work as the best medium, at least for this style of game, even if it has some faults that are harder to sand down.
Oh, there was never any way we were splitting Dex. Just an interesting analysis. I also analyzed combining Con and Strength into one stat for the same way out there analysis chain.
As for finesse weapons, the comparator would be max 1d6 for a one-handed finesse weapon (but is that design actually resistant to someone breaking the design guide and making one weird finesse weapon somewhere that's a d8?) to max d8 for one-handed non-finesse weapon, since the most vulnerable builds are ones that, for whatever reason (shield, somatic casting, etc) need to have the other hand for something else already.
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If dex to damage is a thing it should be an option available to any martial with a little bit of effort. That said I am a little worried about Dex being better than Str in all ways. I hope that Str based armored characters can at least get a few points better AC than pure dex based characters so that they get something in exchange for armor check and speed penalties.Yeah, Dex has been a bit of an uber-score since 2000, but at least is is not default for Initiative, this time.During one phase of design where we created "way out there" design docs with analyses that tossed away all the assumptions (just to make sure we weren't thinking too much inside the box, even though we used none of these in the final playtest), I determined what would happen in PF1 if manual dexterity was divorced from agility (footwork and full body motion) into seven stats. By my value analysis, if I recall correctly, agility was still roughly tied for the best stat in the game.
So I'm definitely sympathetic to this concern. One thing that's pretty important is that we make sure we choose a solution that works well with the PF2 ability score and multiclassing system and that is resistant to later design that goes off-script from our design principles and guides in predictable ways. I'm not convinced we have that solution yet (particularly, even if it works for the rogue, the current solution is incredibly vulnerable to somebody inserting a more generic Dex-to-damage option into a later book and unbalancing a variety of non-rogue character builds), but we'll playtest and solicit ideas from you guys and see what we can find!
And yet I think characters who benefit from high DEX to get higher damage make sense and should have some place in the game without being gated behind a specific class or weapon. And should stay relevant in combat. Wouldn't it be better to tackle this directly and take it from the start into account rather than play the Hide and Seek game we witnessed in previous editions ?
I often felt that there was a strong feeling against DEX to damage on many Devs' part, which led to these unsatisfying roundabout ways to put it back into the game to answer the frustration of the players who wish for a relevant martial based on mobility and agility (high DEX) and not on brute strength and big muscles (high STR)
How is DEX that strong that getting its mod to damage is such a taboo ?
That question has really been answered like a million times on other threads.
The stats that actually make more sense to combine is Dex and str. the only difference between the two on the biological level is white muscle and red muscle.
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Oh, there was never any way we were splitting Dex. Just an interesting analysis. I also analyzed combining Con and Strength into one stat for the same way out there analysis chain.But that would be a mistake, I know the 90 lbs/40 kg guy that is spindly/wiry, not powerful, but can run for days and never gets sick.
It's a way out there analysis chain for a reason! But it was at least more balanced with Dex and Wis than Str was before.
That question has really been answered like a million times on other threads.I would honestly greatly appreciate some summing-up or at least some links to relevant posts rather than comb through the internet on my own.
Also I would like to know why it seems so disquieting to the devs themselves
-Initiative
-Armor Class
-Reflex Saves
-ranged attack rolls
-melee attack rolls (with minimal investment)
-acrobatics skill (to avoid AoO)
If you add Dex to damage to all this, what do you need Str for?
Con at least is valuable for your hp and Fortitude save, but if you aren't hit, can avoid AoO's and can dodge that trap and fireball, why would you need top hp?
And that isn't just for Rogues, a Dex-Barbarian is solid as well.
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Ezren the Wizard is out now.
edit: Not much to comment on.
I hope Acid Splash scales quickly, because 1d4+1 isn't worth anything after 1st level.
Does showing two different action types in a spell indicate it requires both actions or only one of the two possible types?
So casting shield gives you the shield block reaction. cool.
I would imagine it goes up 1 die per level or at least 1 every other. The cantrips are suppose to scale (although I wonder how that works for light.. maybe it doesn't?)
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Does showing two different action types in a spell indicate it requires both actions or only one of the two possible types?
Both. Otherwise one could cast three spells in a single round.
So what is 'spell roll' for? Nothing uses it.
Nothing exciting here at all. It seems like he'll get the most use out of light and detect magic.
Shield is really quirky as a mechanic, but ultimately its pre-spend an action to use a reaction to block four damage every ten minutes. Huzzah?
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Wizards appear to only get 2+Int Skills. Interesting.
That makes the number of Skills by Class appear to be as follows:
Alchemist: 2+Int
Barbarian: 3+Int
Bard: ? (we know it's more than anyone but Rogue...I'm gonna guess 8)
Cleric: 5+Int
Druid: 4+Int
Fighter: 3+Int
Paladin: 4+Int
Monk: ? (I'm betting 4, but we'll see)
Ranger: ? (we know they're third most, right after Bard...6 or 7 maybe?)
Rogue: 10+Int
Sorcerer: 4+Int (Probably, based on Signature Skills)
Wizard: 2+Int
That mostly looks okay, with the exception of Barbarian and Fighter having too few (they're less than several casters...this is bad for purely martial characters) and Cleric maybe having too many (5 seems a trifle excessive).
Humans also seem to get a free bonus language of their choice, which is also interesting.
I agree that Acid Splash looks pretty underwhelming, though we'll need to see other cantrips for a full breakdown.
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So what is 'spell roll' for? Nothing uses it.
It's a bit odd that attacks don't use it. I suepct various spells we haven't seen will do so.
Shield is really quirky as a mechanic, but ultimately its pre-spend an action to use a reaction to block four damage every ten minutes. Huzzah?
There's also the +1 AC. That's relevant.
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By the way, I really like Dex-to-damage on Rogues. It allows them to really feel effortless.I think it should be an option for Monks, as well.
The possibility of getting Dex to damage on monks is exactly why I think it should not be a flat 1st level option for anyone, and why I suggested a flat damage bonus with finesse weapons.
What would be the point of building a STR monk if the Dex monk can dip one level (or eventual pick 1 feat) and forever get to use their Dex Mod to do damage?
The idea of adding various attribute scores was an interesting one, but we saw with 4e how quickly that turns into a game of figuring out how to have a character ride one ability score as far as possible and turn primary attribute maximizing the most effect means of playing RPGs.
If the bonus from the Rogue class ability was a flat damage bonus of +2, then it would preserve the idea that rogues use finesse weapons, allow them to be more lethal, but not penalize the rogue for putting ability scores in STR.
A Dex rogue is still going to be more accurate (because an 18 STR is not possible for a rogue at level 1) and have a much greater AC. Accuracy will let the rogue utilize crit feats to great effect and still give plenty of fun design space to the Dex rogue without making all others pale in comparison.
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Yeah I used to play a half-orc rogue who was more str focused and I Feel that would not be a playable option in PF2 or at least so very sub par to the point where it would just be wasteful. :(
So Great Fortitude grants a +1 to fort saves? (Con of 14 + level 1 + 1 from Great Fort?)
I’m unclear how Ezren is getting a +3 will (Wis of 12 + level 1 + ?)
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So Great Fortitude grants a +1 to fort saves? (Con of 14 + level 1 + 1 from Great Fort?)
It seems to makes you Expert, yeah.
I’m unclear how Ezren is getting a +3 will (Wis of 12 + level 1 + ?)
He's presumably Expert at Will Saves. Everyone else has been Expert at two Save categories by default, so Wizard's still behind.
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So what is 'spell roll' for? Nothing uses it.It's a bit odd that attacks don't use it. I suepct various spells we haven't seen will do so.
Shield is really quirky as a mechanic, but ultimately its pre-spend an action to use a reaction to block four damage every ten minutes. Huzzah?There's also the +1 AC. That's relevant.
Yes, yes, thanks to double book crit accounting, every trivial +1 is secretly five times more important than it seems to be. You've mentioned this.
Or a wizard can toss a feat at shield or armor proficiency and have more than +1. And not be 3-4 points lower in AC than the rest of the pregens, which leaves the wizard looking like they'll have lots of trouble with crits even with the shield cantrip up.
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Frankly I wouldn't expect a wizard to have the same AC as a fighter or cleric but if you want to go on a rant don't let me stop you go right away and rant away.
By the way, I really like Dex-to-damage on Rogues. It allows them to really feel effortless.I think it should be an option for Monks, as well.The possibility of getting Dex to damage on monks is exactly why I think it should not be a flat 1st level option for anyone, and why I suggested a flat damage bonus with finesse weapons.
What would be the point of building a STR monk if the Dex monk can dip one level (or eventual pick 1 feat) and forever get to use their Dex Mod to do damage?
The idea of adding various attribute scores was an interesting one, but we saw with 4e how quickly that turns into a game of figuring out how to have a character ride one ability score as far as possible and turn primary attribute maximizing the most effect means of playing RPGs.
If the bonus from the Rogue class ability was a flat damage bonus of +2, then it would preserve the idea that rogues use finesse weapons, allow them to be more lethal, but not penalize the rogue for putting ability scores in STR.
A Dex rogue is still going to be more accurate (because an 18 STR is not possible for a rogue at level 1) and have a much greater AC. Accuracy will let the rogue utilize crit feats to great effect and still give plenty of fun design space to the Dex rogue without making all others pale in comparison.
Multiclass dipping probably won't exist in 2e. I'm pretty sure it's going to be an updated version of VMC. Where you will spend Class Feats to get Features and Feats from another class.
Multiclass dipping probably won't exist in 2e. I'm pretty sure it's going to be an updated version of VMC. Where you will spend Class Feats to get Features and Feats from another class.By the way, I really like Dex-to-damage on Rogues. It allows them to really feel effortless.I think it should be an option for Monks, as well.The possibility of getting Dex to damage on monks is exactly why I think it should not be a flat 1st level option for anyone, and why I suggested a flat damage bonus with finesse weapons.
What would be the point of building a STR monk if the Dex monk can dip one level (or eventual pick 1 feat) and forever get to use their Dex Mod to do damage?
The idea of adding various attribute scores was an interesting one, but we saw with 4e how quickly that turns into a game of figuring out how to have a character ride one ability score as far as possible and turn primary attribute maximizing the most effect means of playing RPGs.
If the bonus from the Rogue class ability was a flat damage bonus of +2, then it would preserve the idea that rogues use finesse weapons, allow them to be more lethal, but not penalize the rogue for putting ability scores in STR.
A Dex rogue is still going to be more accurate (because an 18 STR is not possible for a rogue at level 1) and have a much greater AC. Accuracy will let the rogue utilize crit feats to great effect and still give plenty of fun design space to the Dex rogue without making all others pale in comparison.
I don't think so. that might also be an option but I'm willing to bet level of one class level of another multi classing will still be around.
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Yes, yes, thanks to double book crit accounting, every trivial +1 is secretly five times more important than it seems to be. You've mentioned this.
More like twice as important, but yeah pretty much. :)
Or a wizard can toss a feat at shield or armor proficiency and have more than +1. And not be 3-4 points lower in AC than the rest of the pregens, which looks they'll have lots of trouble with crits even with shield up.
Light Armor gives a whole +2 AC at most (and that's with an Armor Check Penalty). Bracers of Armor, meanwhile, are available by 2nd at the latest (they're apparently ridiculously cheap at the low level) and give +1. So you'd be spending a Feat for +1 AC in the long term. That's maybe worth it, but only maybe.
So this is something of a specifically 1st level problem in some ways.
But yes, due to lowish Dex combined with what amounts to light armor, Ezren's AC is a bit low. Much like a PF1 Wizard.
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So what is 'spell roll' for? Nothing uses it.
Nothing exciting here at all. It seems like he'll get the most use out of light and detect magic.
Shield is really quirky as a mechanic, but ultimately its pre-spend an action to use a reaction to block four damage every ten minutes. Huzzah?
'spell roll' is probably the same as concentration checks in 1e. So you will roll it whenever you need to make a concentration check or trying to beat SR, or dispel magic or what have you.
I don't think so. that might also be an option but I'm willing to bet level of one class level of another multi classing will still be around.Multiclass dipping probably won't exist in 2e. I'm pretty sure it's going to be an updated version of VMC. Where you will spend Class Feats to get Features and Feats from another class.By the way, I really like Dex-to-damage on Rogues. It allows them to really feel effortless.I think it should be an option for Monks, as well.The possibility of getting Dex to damage on monks is exactly why I think it should not be a flat 1st level option for anyone, and why I suggested a flat damage bonus with finesse weapons.
What would be the point of building a STR monk if the Dex monk can dip one level (or eventual pick 1 feat) and forever get to use their Dex Mod to do damage?
The idea of adding various attribute scores was an interesting one, but we saw with 4e how quickly that turns into a game of figuring out how to have a character ride one ability score as far as possible and turn primary attribute maximizing the most effect means of playing RPGs.
If the bonus from the Rogue class ability was a flat damage bonus of +2, then it would preserve the idea that rogues use finesse weapons, allow them to be more lethal, but not penalize the rogue for putting ability scores in STR.
A Dex rogue is still going to be more accurate (because an 18 STR is not possible for a rogue at level 1) and have a much greater AC. Accuracy will let the rogue utilize crit feats to great effect and still give plenty of fun design space to the Dex rogue without making all others pale in comparison.
I doubt that because the devs have stated that you will only ever need to look at one table when leveling up and multiclassing. And since a ton of options have been ported over from Unchained, and looking at how archetypes and prestige classes works, it will make a lot more sense for multiclassing to be VMC style.
I doubt that because the devs have stated that you will only ever need to look at one table when leveling up and multiclassing. And since a ton of options have been ported over from Unchained, and looking at how archetypes and prestige...I don't think so. that might also be an option but I'm willing to bet level of one class level of another multi classing will still be around.Multiclass dipping probably won't exist in 2e. I'm pretty sure it's going to be an updated version of VMC. Where you will spend Class Feats to get Features and Feats from another class.By the way, I really like Dex-to-damage on Rogues. It allows them to really feel effortless.I think it should be an option for Monks, as well.The possibility of getting Dex to damage on monks is exactly why I think it should not be a flat 1st level option for anyone, and why I suggested a flat damage bonus with finesse weapons.
What would be the point of building a STR monk if the Dex monk can dip one level (or eventual pick 1 feat) and forever get to use their Dex Mod to do damage?
The idea of adding various attribute scores was an interesting one, but we saw with 4e how quickly that turns into a game of figuring out how to have a character ride one ability score as far as possible and turn primary attribute maximizing the most effect means of playing RPGs.
If the bonus from the Rogue class ability was a flat damage bonus of +2, then it would preserve the idea that rogues use finesse weapons, allow them to be more lethal, but not penalize the rogue for putting ability scores in STR.
A Dex rogue is still going to be more accurate (because an 18 STR is not possible for a rogue at level 1) and have a much greater AC. Accuracy will let the rogue utilize crit feats to great effect and still give plenty of fun design space to the Dex rogue without making all others pale in comparison.
See now I took that to mean they won't have that additional chart that has feats ability increases etc on it. I guess we will find out.
Ah- looks like Cleric and Wizard both don’t start with a class feat by default. Universalist gets one by trading out their school ability. Guess that means you need to be human, gnome, or a universalist to start with a familiar. Cleric seems much better off at first level.
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I find it a bit odd that a sling requires an action to reload but a crossbow doesn’t.
Frankly I wouldn't expect a wizard to have the same AC as a fighter or cleric but if you want to go on a rant don't let me stop you go right away and rant away.
Hardly a rant, but if you look at various bits and pieces in blogs on armor and AC, as well as the pregens, the numbers have converged a fair bit, with much of this group plopped right on 17, with a bump for anyone with access to shields.
I rather aspect with the right feats and/or Mage armor, Ezra would be in the same ballpark. Particularly if he was built for 16 Dex, which he should be since spell attacks go off of Dex rather than the spell roll for no apparent reason.
So, I dunno. Maybe he's built this was because 1st level wizards are supposed to be bad, and if he wasn't it would have the right feel?
I find it a bit odd that a sling requires an action to reload but a crossbow doesn’t.
Nice catch. It also seems odd that the crossbow is just called "crossbow", possibly meaning there is only one type of crossbow.
I think of these sheets Fumbus remains my firm favourite.
I like the metamagic rules, but that isn't just a wizard thing, while I also really quite like the thematics of the shield cantrip, but I can't say anything else immediately has me pumped. If there's a feat that lets me snag Shield as a cantrip elsewhere (gnomes?) I think it would be quite fun on a rogue.
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Hardly a rant, but if you look at various bits and pieces in blogs on armor and AC, as well as the pregens, the numbers have converged a fair bit, with much of this group plopped right on 17, with a bump for anyone with access to shields.
This is only true for max Dex people and those in heavy armor (well, Dex 14 and medium armor will also do it).
I rather aspect with the right feats and/or Mage armor, Ezra would be in the same ballpark. Particularly if he was built for 16 Dex, which he should be since spell attacks go off of Dex rather than the spell roll for no apparent reason.
With Mage Armor (or the aforementioned) Bracers and Dex 16, he could have a 15, 16 with Shield. So about 2 less AC than a Fighter rather than 4.
Wizards are expected to have lower AC than a Rogue or Fighter, and are even lower at 1st level since they're probably not burning a spell on Mage Armor at that level.
So, I dunno. Maybe he's built this was because 1st level wizards are supposed to be bad, and if he wasn't it would have the right feel?
Going Dex 14, Con 14 instead of Dex 16, Con 12 is a reasonable choice in the long run, if a bit less than ideal at 1st level specifically. So it's a reasonable barometer for what a 1st level character might look like.
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I find it a bit odd that a sling requires an action to reload but a crossbow doesn’t.Nice catch. It also seems odd that the crossbow is just called "crossbow", possibly meaning there is only one type of crossbow.
I suspect it's the Light Crossbow equivalent, with Heavy Crossbow remaining a separate option that has reload, but we'll see.
Woo, a light spell that lasts more than a minute, so it is actually useful!