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Hey guys, I was re-reading an old adventure - Rasputin Must Die! (btw, all manners of awesome).
But something is bothering me.
You see, when you come face to face with the evil monk,
Granted, he's an 18th level oracle, but, for instance, there are also 3 nosferatu antipaladins of 11th level a little earlier, who before combat cast bull's strength, eagle's splendor, defile armor and protection from good, plus they use their fiendish boon to make their claws +1 unholy weapons. They're also enjoying the effects of a desecrate cast by an erodaemon.
I remember in the very first adventure in Rise of the Runelords the barghest also buffed himself with a lot of spells - less than the shopping lists exemplified above, sure, but still. Mokmurian was another example later on in the AP.
I like buff spells and think they're a great and fundamental part of the magical repertoire of most spellcasters, and make sense and are cool from a narrative perspective, but I think 3.5 and PF1 went decidedly overboard with the idea, honestly.
You know I come from 5e. There's the simplest rule there: most buffs are concentration, which means, you can only have one at a time. If you wanna cast another, you drop the old buff and concentrate on the new one. I think this is extremely elegant, and it avoids characters flying around shrouded in 3 different protective auras while intermittently phasing in and out of existence. I mean, I can't even see the villain, he's so blinging with magic!
First off, does anyone know if there will be some kind of limit to buffs in PF2? Any safety net to avoid excessive numbers of magical effects all working at the same time?
Secondarily, do you enjoy this level of tactical preparation? Doesn't the sheer amount of buffing seem excessive to you? If so, what measures have you implemented in your campaigns to rein it in, if any?
Or is it an absolutely integral part of the game that needs to stay, in your opinion?
(On the other hand, in 5e I've found BBEGs not lasting nearly enough to pose an actual threat to my group, and buff spells would have certainly helped them - but I still think... at least a single buff with several effects all rolled in, not a shopping list!).
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It is an integral part of the game and needs to stay.
I don't want a 5e experience from PF2, if I did, that's the game I'd play. It is too simple and too stripped back - too flat.
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We don't know for sure. Bless, the one buff we have full access to, requires one action per round to maintain, but I doubt that's universal (though it is how I expect Bardic Performance to work).
Additionally, most spell-based buffs probably provide the same type of bonus (since bonus types have been cut down in number drastically), meaning that numerical buffs probably don't stack very well with each other on a single score.
Basically, I think buffs exist and are gonna stay, and can stack somewhat (a buff to AC and a buff to attack probably play nicely together), but you'll have less massive stacking on a single score.
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This shopping list of buffs is the flair of high-level caster types I actually find cool.
For the players buffing up before a fight is kinda like a gearing up checklist, flipping all those switches and feeling the energy rising. BBEGs with with multiple visible effects are saying "I'm trouble!".
It's a special kind of flair. But I agree while impressive it is very cumbersome to play and calculate.
I wish there will be some kind of limitation. I don't know if concentration like 5e is the way to go or some other stuff like buffs reserve one Resonance (like items) temporarily.
With buffs on concentration, single enemies are at an disadvantage because they can only have 1 (or maybe 2?) buffs active. Minnions are needed to buff the BBEG further. ...wich also leads to tactical decissions...
So in conclusion: Massive amount of buffs are pretty awesome (or nice to look at in PC-games that use 3.5 rules) but should still be limited a bit for easier Pen&Paper play.
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Dragonhunterq, I don't want 5e either, otherwise I wouldn't be here, I assure you - but perhaps... just *not so many buffs at the same time*? Still no?
DMW, I did know about Bless, and that encourages me... as for different buffs stacking, good to know, that should impact the amount of buffs used too.
masda_gib, I get where you're coming from, and I absolutely feel that some buffing is awesome. In Reign of Winter there's this pic of Rasputin floating, surrounded by bluish electrical curtains of energy, preparing to cast some terrible doom. I absolutely want that. At the same time, Chest gets me - casting spell after spell after spell before combat... is that cool, honestly?
The party enters the room and the evil archmage with a sneer starts chanting and floating feet above, erecting walls of flame and summoning demons, all at the same time, while a crown of darkness fades in around their brow, crackling with eldritch energy. Cool, no?
Compared to, the party enters the room and the evil archmage is already flying, wrapped in an aura of flames, giant-sized, with ethereal armor protecting them, 2 flaming swords whirling by their side, and they start casting a shimmering barrier around them, and then materializing a ghostly hand next to the party.
Mmm. I dunno.
Planning tactics before entering the obvious throne room of the BBEG is just common sense. But I would have the BBEG cast a quick powerful buff and fly outside the double doors followed by an army of monsters, thus interrupting the pcs, for instance. No pre-buffing for you, pipsqueaks.
The visuals are different, too. A caster can really cloak themselves with an unholy amount of magical effects. Where are they, even? I can see only an amalgam of flashing colors blinking in and out of existence. It makes my head hurt.
Again, I dunno. Maybe, well done, buffing can be awesome. But I'm not usually a fan of villains who precast everything - when you watch a movie it doesn't work like that. That's an awkward trope to me.
Further thoughts, guys?
There really is another element to that: spell duration.
Having some spells work for hours per casting (overland flight, mage armor...) means the BBEG and the PC's aren't going to be encountered not having them cast already (unless they are surprised while camping/sleeping, and even then some might still be active, or have been cast right before going to sleep).
Adding to that the PF1 spells with a 1 minute/level duration and even just some advanced warning, those (blur, mirror image,...) were up as well.
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This is my level 14 Paladin buff list:
Already Active:
Eagle Soul
Magic Weapon, Greater
Delay Poison
Priority:
Saddle Surge
Holy Weapon
Angelic Aspect, Greater
Scrolls:
Stunning Barrier, Greater
Ironskin
Shield of Fortification, Greater
(Divine Favour)
Blade Tutor’s Spirit
(Righteous Vigour)
Vest of the Champion
Weapon of Awe
Burst of Glory
(DF and RV were subbed out for some of the situation spells)
Scrolls (situational):
Death Ward
Resist Elements, Communal
Deadly Juggernaut
Crusader's Edge
Iron Beard
Righteous Blood
I did not ever go the full cycle, because it was ludicrous, but I certainly was prepared to do so.
It has been a few months, I could not remember exactly what one or two of them did.
I think it would be good if buffs were toned down a bit.
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One very important detail that a lot of people miss is that having multiple abjuration spells up and running in 3e/PF1 sets a DC 25 Perception to notice this effect even when all of them have no visible effect. Doesn't matter if you have a mind blank up while under greater invisibility if you also have protection from spells, protection from acid, cold, electricity and fire, resist acid, cold, electricity and fire, stoneskin, mage armor, shield, greater spell immunity, and freedom of movement along with it.
While this DC is difficult for most characters until higher level play, even at 1st level it is possible to make this check (depending on the character although a +5 to Perception at 1st level is hardly out of the realm of plausibility), steadily becoming more and more probable as characters attain higher levels.
In PF2 there appears to be a much reduced capability to both generate that many abjurations per day, let alone slather than many of them on the entire party, and still have any spell slots left over with which to take out the bad guys.
With the vastly reduced number of spells per spell level per day and the (over) simplification of bonus types in PF2, the OPs concerns about the number of defensive spells seeing use will plummet to a small fraction of what it was.
With a fixed 3/day/spell level per caster and 2 casters per party presumably remaining the 'default design assumption' of PF2, my guess is that most casters will use only 1/day/spell level for "buffs"/defensive spells so that they can do something useful. This is just a guess - we do not yet have access to the playtest CRB.
One very important detail that a lot of people miss is that having multiple abjuration spells up and running in 3e/PF1 sets a DC 25 Perception to notice this effect ...
Huh, that's a first I hear of that. A quick search brings up nothing, other than:
If one abjuration spell is active within 10 feet of another for 24 hours or more, the magical fields interfere with each other and create barely visible energy fluctuations. The DC to find such spells with the Perception skill drops by 4.
Can you cite the rule, or give a link?
...
With a fixed 3/day/spell level per caster and 2 casters per party presumably remaining the 'default design assumption' of PF2, my guess is that most casters will use only 1/day/spell level for "buffs"/defensive spells so that they can do something useful.
...
True enough, but don't forget that cantrips autoscale with level, so doing something useful might just be to cast cantrips.
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One very important detail that a lot of people miss is that having multiple abjuration spells up and running in 3e/PF1 sets a DC 25 Perception to notice this effect ...Huh, that's a first I hear of that. A quick search brings up nothing, other than:
If one abjuration spell is active within 10 feet of another for 24 hours or more, the magical fields interfere with each other and create barely visible energy fluctuations. The DC to find such spells with the Perception skill drops by 4.Can you cite the rule, or give a link?
What the ... when did that get ninja'd in? My hard copy CRB did not survive after its 5th or 6th year. I'll see if my wife has hers floating around where I can read it. Just this past session in our Giantslayer campaign this came up. The GM was "oh yeah, that's right, I'd forgotten about that", in reference to the DC 25 Perception thing. Without it ... we'd have been TPK'd.
True enough, but don't forget that cantrips autoscale with level, so doing something useful might just be to cast cantrips....
With a fixed 3/day/spell level per caster and 2 casters per party presumably remaining the 'default design assumption' of PF2, my guess is that most casters will use only 1/day/spell level for "buffs"/defensive spells so that they can do something useful.
...
That might not be particularly satisfying past 3rd or 4th level. Guess we'll see! ^_____^
The abilities formerly known as hand of the acolyte / hand of the apprentice ... bka fling helicopter blade in my circles, being an all-day cantrip ... that would be pretty satisfying.
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We don't know for sure. Bless, the one buff we have full access to, requires one action per round to maintain, but I doubt that's universal (though it is how I expect Bardic Performance to work).
Additionally, most spell-based buffs probably provide the same type of bonus (since bonus types have been cut down in number drastically), meaning that numerical buffs probably don't stack very well with each other on a single score.
Basically, I think buffs exist and are gonna stay, and can stack somewhat (a buff to AC and a buff to attack probably play nicely together), but you'll have less massive stacking on a single score.
This is my guess too. As they did with Starfinder (in terms of number of different types of buffs that players have available them, which are few) my guess is they will also do with Pathfinder 2. So while you'll probably be able to get a buff to most of your stats, you'll also only have one (because other buffs would be the same type and not stack).
And really, the not stacking is the only really important part. Pathfinder was insane with the amount of stacking and buffs a character could have. Having a buff to all your stats isn't bad, but being able to buff your attack and damage rolls by +10 or more got crazy.
One very important detail that a lot of people miss is that having multiple abjuration spells up and running in 3e/PF1 sets a DC 25 Perception to notice this effect even when all of them have no visible effect. Doesn't matter if you have a mind blank up while under greater invisibility if you also have protection from spells, protection from acid, cold, electricity and fire, resist acid, cold, electricity and fire, stoneskin, mage armor, shield, greater spell immunity, and freedom of movement along with it.
While this DC is difficult for most characters until higher level play, even at 1st level it is possible to make this check (depending on the character although a +5 to Perception at 1st level is hardly out of the realm of plausibility), steadily becoming more and more probable as characters attain higher levels.
In PF2 there appears to be a much reduced capability to both generate that many abjurations per day, let alone slather than many of them on the entire party, and still have any spell slots left over with which to take out the bad guys.
With the vastly reduced number of spells per spell level per day and the (over) simplification of bonus types in PF2, the OPs concerns about the number of defensive spells seeing use will plummet to a small fraction of what it was.
With a fixed 3/day/spell level per caster and 2 casters per party presumably remaining the 'default design assumption' of PF2, my guess is that most casters will use only 1/day/spell level for "buffs"/defensive spells so that they can do something useful. This is just a guess - we do not yet have access to the playtest CRB.
I absolutely didn't know about that multiple abjurations notice DC rule! That's interesting... a bit circumstantial, but interesting.
You're right, it appears we'll have fewer spell slots per level if I read the blog posts right. That doesn't sound bad to me... In many games, casters can end up casting a lot of different stuff. That is good, but it starts being a bit too much at a certain point. And of course, linear warriors, quadratic wizards.
I hope your estimations are correct and buffs have to contend for room with attacks, summons, heals, utilities and so on. I think upgrading cantrips reduces the severity of this nerf a bit - they're not incredible spells, but they shouldn't be too few, and they're pretty decent from what I've seen.
This imvho could be a very good development. I understand wanting a big list of spells and a lot of slots to cast them, don't get me wrong - but maybe players of casters will try this new system out and find out they even like it, who knows? Less resources means more tactical thinking after all.
It also means less complexity, and I know many people abhor this move on the part of Paizo, but I think many people will be won over by a more balanced fluff/crunch ratio. Including many *new* people, I'm sure.
One could say that this is pandering to the lowest common denominator, I guess - dumbing down a game that was almost perfectly fine the way it was, except for a couple broken rules that could've been easily fixed, so that brainless noobs can invade the community. I understand this reasoning - it's a little elitist, but it's not completely divorced from reality, Paizo is indeed trying to draw more potential gamers to their well, together with 5e players like me who want more crunch, customization and tactics, but not an excessive complexity.
I would in all honesty prefer... a 2-pronged strategy: Paizo not discontinuing PF1, just devoting less resources to it, and diverting the rest to PF2. Because a lot of loyal customers and enthusiastic fans now are feeling abandoned. And it sucks, however you wanna rationalize it. It's a real pity.
But, rambling now. Okay Mad Comrade, thank you for the data, it seems like good stuff. I hope the final document will cleave pretty close to this.
The abilities formerly known as hand of the acolyte / hand of the apprentice ... bka fling helicopter blade in my circles, being an all-day cantrip ... that would be pretty satisfying.
Fling Helicopter Blade?! XD That should be its official name! What does it do?
EDITED because I can't spell X)
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I didn't mind it, but then, we've been using toggle-able spreadsheets and such in one form or another for most of the existence of 3e nee Pathfinder.
Over the course of the Nouveau Pathfinder playtest discussion threads I have come to this realization: if it doesn't suck eggs, I'll make the switch once the playtest is released.
I hold out hope that they won't succumb to the madness of the Crunchmill that has taken hold. 2,000-odd feats - many of which should be options for skills, backgrounds or the like - and the Gawds-knows-how-many spells is Too Many, to the point of ridiculousness.
Animal Call as a feat being one of the most recent and egregious examples of this. Seriously guys, a FEAT with favored terrain as a prerequisite-but-not-a-prerequisite to imitate bird calls and animal noises?! This is an opposed Survival or Knowledge (nature) vs. Knowledge (nature) or Perception check, not a Feat.
I like options. I don't like every option under the sun becoming either a Feat or a Spell. Feats will hopefully be reserved for significant and substantial things. Not pithy stuff like imitating animal noises.
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The abilities formerly known as hand of the acolyte / hand of the apprentice ... bka fling helicopter blade in my circles, being an all-day cantrip ... that would be pretty satisfying.Flying Helicopter Blade?! XD That should be its official name! What does it do?
"Fling" (throw) a melee weapon as a ranged attack using casting ability modifier +BAB to-hit and STR modifier on the damage roll to a 30-foot range.
I love it because there are no stated size limits, it works with the Vital Strike feats (or it should, rules be damned) and if I really want to I can set it up with a true strike. It's hilarious when one PC uses fabricate to craft some gawdawful enormous greatsword or double-sword out of the trees, ground or whathaveyou ... then you pick it up (move action) and fling helicopter blade as your standard action. Who doesn't want to hurl, say, 6d6 - 18d6 of unadulterated Slashing damage at the bad guy?
If you have access to some interesting mythic material, you can use this to fling that bad boy so that you attempt to blenderize everything in a 150-foot-line. ^______^
Yeah, I've been playing with a variant of this for a good while. For my groups, you can have three buffs up from other casters and as many of your own as you want. This prevents overbuffing, but keeps buffs relevant for the casters themselves (since some classes, like wizards and sorcerers, heavily depend on stuff like Fly and Mirror Image to protect themselves in combat).
This still allows for important buffs like Haste, Resist Energy and Blessing of Fervor to be up on the entire group, but prevents ridiculous overbuffing with 10-15 buff spells on the entire group, which I've seen happen in various campaigns at the higher levels.
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Stuff has already been mentioned in regards to action cost, less spell slots, less bonus types, and tighter math all combining to most likely rein in buffs. One thing I'd like to note for Roswynn's specific example enemies pre-buffing is that we have been promised much more streamlined Stat blocks for monsters. We probably won't see as many random spell like abilities, instead sticking to a few signature powers. I imagine a monster that relied on multiple buffs will probably just have better base stats, for example.
This is my guess too. As they did with Starfinder (in terms of number of different types of buffs that players have available them, which are few) my guess is they will also do with Pathfinder 2. So while you'll probably be able to get a buff to most of your stats, you'll also only have one (because other buffs would be the same type and not stack).
And really, the not stacking is the only really important part. Pathfinder was insane with the amount of stacking and buffs a character could have. Having a buff to all your stats isn't bad, but being able to buff your attack and damage rolls by +10 or more got crazy.
You know, that can certainly be problematic, but what bothers me is not precisely the stacking, it's the *sheer amount of buffs* you could cast on yourself, given enough time. It was... a bit crazy. Surreal, for sure.
Personally, I'm glad this edition will have rules to limit that kind of... bullshit, if y'all will forgive my French - directly or indirectly, just make it less prominent!
The abilities formerly known as hand of the acolyte / hand of the apprentice ... bka fling helicopter blade in my circles, being an all-day cantrip ... that would be pretty satisfying.Flying Helicopter Blade?! XD That should be its official name! What does it do?"Fling" (throw) a melee weapon as a ranged attack using casting ability modifier +BAB to-hit and STR modifier on the damage roll to a 30-foot range.
I love it because there are no stated size limits, it works with the Vital Strike feats (or it should, rules be damned) and if I really want to I can set it up with a true strike. It's hilarious when one PC uses fabricate to craft some gawdawful enormous greatsword or double-sword out of the trees, ground or whathaveyou ... then you pick it up (move action) and fling helicopter blade as your standard action. Who doesn't want to hurl, say, 6d6 - 18d6 of unadulterated Slashing damage at the bad guy?
If you have access to some interesting mythic material, you can use this to fling that bad boy so that you attempt to blenderize everything in a 150-foot-line. ^______^
Hahahah! XD I really hope this "cantrip" doesn't make the cut, in all honesty! I mean, shooting gigantic sword at people is clearly a win-win scenario from all perspectives, but - not as a damn cantrip! XD
Yeah, I've been playing with a variant of this for a good while. For my groups, you can have three buffs up from other casters and as many of your own as you want. This prevents overbuffing, but keeps buffs relevant for the casters themselves (since some classes, like wizards and sorcerers, heavily depend on stuff like Fly and Mirror Image to protect themselves in combat).
This still allows for important buffs like Haste, Resist Energy and Blessing of Fervor to be up on the entire group, but prevents ridiculous overbuffing with 10-15 buff spells on the entire group, which I've seen happen in various campaigns at the higher levels.
(Recoils in horror).
10-15 BUFF SPELLS ON THE ENTIRE GROUP
(Runs away).
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Hahahah! XD I really hope this "cantrip" doesn't make the cut, in all honesty! I mean, shooting gigantic sword at people is clearly a win-win scenario from all perspectives, but - not as a damn cantrip! XDThe abilities formerly known as hand of the acolyte / hand of the apprentice ... bka fling helicopter blade in my circles, being an all-day cantrip ... that would be pretty satisfying.Flying Helicopter Blade?! XD That should be its official name! What does it do?"Fling" (throw) a melee weapon as a ranged attack using casting ability modifier +BAB to-hit and STR modifier on the damage roll to a 30-foot range.
I love it because there are no stated size limits, it works with the Vital Strike feats (or it should, rules be damned) and if I really want to I can set it up with a true strike. It's hilarious when one PC uses fabricate to craft some gawdawful enormous greatsword or double-sword out of the trees, ground or whathaveyou ... then you pick it up (move action) and fling helicopter blade as your standard action. Who doesn't want to hurl, say, 6d6 - 18d6 of unadulterated Slashing damage at the bad guy?
If you have access to some interesting mythic material, you can use this to fling that bad boy so that you attempt to blenderize everything in a 150-foot-line. ^______^
It's not anywhere close to an "I win" button, more of a "now what do I do?!" action.
You still have to hit the target's full AC - which is no guarantee at all - plus all of the other fun that comes with making ranged attacks.
Under normal circumstances it isn't typically an impressive amount of damage (weapon damage plus STR modifier, if any, or penalty, for some Wizards).
With a fixed range of 30 feet, it ties with Arcane Blast for "Something to Do When I can't beat SR / am fighting a Golem".
It doesn't really get respectable until the mid-level range (9th-14th), and at high levels its range is Danger-Close to the Gargantuan and Colossal monsters that crop up regularly.
It also requires some Rule of Cool and the Vital Strike feats to start getting a decent number of damage dice going. Typically, 6d6+0 Slashing damage - Vital Strike with a Large greatsword or other base 2d6 Slashing weapon - isn't going to exactly "Wow" a CR 10+ bad guy. You might get their attention if you're tossing around a Colossal Vorpal Greatsword or something.
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Yeah, I've been playing with a variant of this for a good while. For my groups, you can have three buffs up from other casters and as many of your own as you want. This prevents overbuffing, but keeps buffs relevant for the casters themselves (since some classes, like wizards and sorcerers, heavily depend on stuff like Fly and Mirror Image to protect themselves in combat).
This still allows for important buffs like Haste, Resist Energy and Blessing of Fervor to be up on the entire group, but prevents ridiculous overbuffing with 10-15 buff spells on the entire group, which I've seen happen in various campaigns at the higher levels.
(Recoils in horror).
10-15 BUFF SPELLS ON THE ENTIRE GROUP
(Runs away).
*stoner voice* Spreadsheets man ... spreadsheets... /*stoner voice*
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One thing you can notice is that spell durations have been cut massively. If you reference the Druid feats, you can see Form Control. You add a somatic casting action to a Wild Shape lasting 1 minute or longer that would be heightened to any level above minimum. You heighten it to one level below max (instead of the normal max), and the duration is extended to 1 hour.
What I generally gather from this is that long-duration buffs likely last 1 hour (with probably a few 8 or 24 hour exceptions), and shorter ones usually 1 minute. Especially after you consider the lower amount of spells, I expect you won't see nearly as many random buffs thrown out.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dxICJHd518 Clearly the level of buffing we want from this game right here.
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Hmm... yeah, that's a bit high... wait:
Last session (Iron Gods, level 14) we had the following buffs:
haste
blur
communal resist energy (fire)
communal stone skin
fly (though not all of our group, from a wand)
power of faith (paladin archetype ability)
contageous zeal (though not all of our group)
My psychic detective investigator was responsible for 5 of those, the paladin and sorcerer aren't really the buff-casters.
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Clearly the level of buffing we want from this game right here.
That's PF1 buffing.
I like him, he has style.
Spoiler please! I am playing that AP and I don't think I am the only one.Hey guys, I was re-reading an old adventure - Rasputin Must Die! (btw, all manners of awesome).
But something is bothering me.
You see, when you come face to face with the evil monk, he casts on himself a lot of buffs - .....
Goddammit, Diego, you still playing Reign of Winter? Sheesh - I can't edit the post, there's no edit thingie! Don't look at it!
I guess, and there are other ways, greater teleport, etc.That require some questionable reading of how Teleport work.I hope they rein in the pre-buff, scry, teleport, kill deal.
Thread derail:
Stuff has already been mentioned in regards to action cost, less spell slots, less bonus types, and tighter math all combining to most likely rein in buffs. One thing I'd like to note for Roswynn's specific example enemies pre-buffing is that we have been promised much more streamlined Stat blocks for monsters. We probably won't see as many random spell like abilities, instead sticking to a few signature powers. I imagine a monster that relied on multiple buffs will probably just have better base stats, for example.
Yesss! I remember that! Less low-level book-keeping filler, more cool, flavorful abilities! Sounds like a plan!
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Yeah, I've been playing with a variant of this for a good while. For my groups, you can have three buffs up from other casters and as many of your own as you want. This prevents overbuffing, but keeps buffs relevant for the casters themselves (since some classes, like wizards and sorcerers, heavily depend on stuff like Fly and Mirror Image to protect themselves in combat).
This still allows for important buffs like Haste, Resist Energy and Blessing of Fervor to be up on the entire group, but prevents ridiculous overbuffing with 10-15 buff spells on the entire group, which I've seen happen in various campaigns at the higher levels.
I think we never had 10-15 buff spells on every single member of the group, but 10-15 spells of effects between them all? Very common.
Consider the animal companion of my druid in the Reign of Winter AP:
Reduce animal/Armor/Greater magic fang are practically constant. When in a dangerous area: dismiss Reduce animal, cast Animal Growth/Barkskin/Air walk. It alone will have 5 spells.
In combat you can add Haste, and Good Hope plus, most of the time, the bard buffing (if we can convince him to use visual perform).
All that make it relevant in a battle meant for 14 level characters, but not overpowering. Unless everything is active its chance to hit is low.
If animal companions are meant to be relevant in PF2 they either need that kind of buffing or need to be originally stronger.
Same thing for the casters. Without the buffs they are easy pickings.
A bit of focus fire and a wizard will die if he hasn't his buffs.
"Hey boys, if you see a guy in a funny dress and no armor, you should all fire your arrows on him or, even better, engage him in melee. I don't want a repeat of the last time, when he spoken two words and you started attacking each other." is a standard procedure.
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G@#~&$mit, Diego, you still playing Reign of Winter? Sheesh - I can't edit the post, there's no edit thingie! Don't look at it!Spoiler please! I am playing that AP and I don't think I am the only one.Hey guys, I was re-reading an old adventure - Rasputin Must Die! (btw, all manners of awesome).
But something is bothering me.
You see, when you come face to face with the evil monk, he casts on himself a lot of buffs - .....
When I get to be the player and not the GM I play whatever I can. We spend about 2 years on an AP, so there are plenty of them I haven't jet done.
*stoner voice* Spreadsheets man ... spreadsheets... /*stoner voice*Yeah, I've been playing with a variant of this for a good while. For my groups, you can have three buffs up from other casters and as many of your own as you want. This prevents overbuffing, but keeps buffs relevant for the casters themselves (since some classes, like wizards and sorcerers, heavily depend on stuff like Fly and Mirror Image to protect themselves in combat).
This still allows for important buffs like Haste, Resist Energy and Blessing of Fervor to be up on the entire group, but prevents ridiculous overbuffing with 10-15 buff spells on the entire group, which I've seen happen in various campaigns at the higher levels.
(Recoils in horror).
10-15 BUFF SPELLS ON THE ENTIRE GROUP
(Runs away).
Woman, but yeah!! O__O POINT <--- TAKEN. IT'S TAKEN, SEE? O______O
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Woman, but yeah!! O__O POINT <--- TAKEN. IT'S TAKEN, SEE? O______O*stoner voice* Spreadsheets man ... spreadsheets... /*stoner voice*Yeah, I've been playing with a variant of this for a good while. For my groups, you can have three buffs up from other casters and as many of your own as you want. This prevents overbuffing, but keeps buffs relevant for the casters themselves (since some classes, like wizards and sorcerers, heavily depend on stuff like Fly and Mirror Image to protect themselves in combat).
This still allows for important buffs like Haste, Resist Energy and Blessing of Fervor to be up on the entire group, but prevents ridiculous overbuffing with 10-15 buff spells on the entire group, which I've seen happen in various campaigns at the higher levels.
(Recoils in horror).
10-15 BUFF SPELLS ON THE ENTIRE GROUP
(Runs away).
LoL!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dxICJHd518 Clearly the level of buffing we want from this game right here.
Sounds impossible to believe considering it's YT, but it's the comments that really seal the deal for me. They had me almost piss my pants laughing.
Anyways, I can see buffing being the shtick of a character, I was thinking. Totally. Just one, though, not that every. single. caster you meet hears you coming and starts the Buff Routine like they were gonna solo a world boss. Show a little confidence, villains of Golarion.
(BTW, do you know if she one-shots him after all that jazz?).
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One word reply: " Disjunction " ... LoL
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dxICJHd518 Clearly the level of buffing we want from this game right here.Sounds impossible to believe considering it's YT, but it's the comments that really seal the deal for me. They had me almost piss my pants laughing.
Anyways, I can see buffing being the shtick of a character, I was thinking. Totally. Just one, though, not that every. single. caster you meet hears you coming and starts the Buff Routine like they were gonna solo a world boss. Show a little confidence, villains of Golarion.
(BTW, do you know if she one-shots him after all that jazz?).
(I enjoyed them going through the pre-fight buffs, but this is from one of my favorite shows. It's a little less silly in context.)
The actual fight is pretty epic, and hinges on one of the pre-combat buffs.
With greatly reduced spells per day, I’m worried that passing out even a single daily buff to the party will eat up an entire spell level. Extend Spell to alternate days...?
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I can appreciate buffing as a player, but as a DM, it drives me slightly insane having to track that stuff on NPCs. For things I design for homebrew is one thing (I can design without them), but when NPCs in adventure paths use it, one greater dispel magic will leave you sitting at the table for 5 minutes while you figure out new stats.
Just as bad are creatures from bestiaries who figure CRs with buffs cast, yet don't have them reflected in the "default" stat blocks. It's especially prevalent with creatures like angels and devils, things with stuff like unholy aura, righteous might, etc. When my Pit fiend goes down in 2 rounds because I didn't have my power attack turned on, my magic circles engaged, my unholy aura cast, or whatnot, it drives me nuts, and it's compounded in a fight with multiple foes. At least you can force the players to keep track of their own buffs, but I don't need compounded complexity on top of plot, number crunching and basic tactics.
it depends on what the designers want from Pathfinder. If it's to cater to existing players at the expense of new ones, then the complexity is warranted. But I also would not expect any new GM with only a year or two under their belts to keep track of anything over about a combat with 7th or 8th level PCs and their foes.
Yeah, I've been playing with a variant of this for a good while. For my groups, you can have three buffs up from other casters and as many of your own as you want. This prevents overbuffing, but keeps buffs relevant for the casters themselves (since some classes, like wizards and sorcerers, heavily depend on stuff like Fly and Mirror Image to protect themselves in combat).
This still allows for important buffs like Haste, Resist Energy and Blessing of Fervor to be up on the entire group, but prevents ridiculous overbuffing with 10-15 buff spells on the entire group, which I've seen happen in various campaigns at the higher levels.
I think we never had 10-15 buff spells on every single member of the group, but 10-15 spells of effects between them all? Very common.
Consider the animal companion of my druid in the Reign of Winter AP:
Reduce animal/Armor/Greater magic fang are practically constant. When in a dangerous area: dismiss Reduce animal, cast Animal Growth/Barkskin/Air walk. It alone will have 5 spells.
In combat you can add Haste, and Good Hope plus, most of the time, the bard buffing (if we can convince him to use visual perform).All that make it relevant in a battle meant for 14 level characters, but not overpowering. Unless everything is active its chance to hit is low.
If animal companions are meant to be relevant in PF2 they either need that kind of buffing or need to be originally stronger.
Same thing for the casters. Without the buffs they are easy pickings.
A bit of focus fire and a wizard will die if he hasn't his buffs."Hey boys, if you see a guy in a funny dress and no armor, you should all fire your arrows on him or, even better, engage him in melee. I don't want a repeat of the last time, when he spoken two words and you started attacking each other." is a standard procedure.
Those are two actual problems.
Animal companions should scale with the character, obvs. They need to be able to hit the opposition, and do their cool attacks too - trip, trample, pounce, flyby, whatever. Also they can't be one-shotted by the first slightly higher level monster they meet. That's just anticlimatic, they should have some staying power. That of course makes the character much stronger if they can always act every round, so maybe 5e is on the right track with asking rangers to spend their attack action in exchange of having the companion attack. Too drastic I think, but still better than constantly needing buffs to keep them relevant. Maybe... 1 action for each command? And they keep attacking if not recalled? But you also have to use 1 action to tell them to spread out in case of fireball, and also to move, perhaps. They can do things of their own will of course, but they're gonna use animal tactics, which by the gods, are damn good, just not against atypical enemies for the animal in question. What do you say, folks, still too strong, too weak, how should animal companions be done in 2e, and do we have info (DMW of course I'm talking to you ^_^).
As for the wizard weakling problem... I say the wizard needs to cast a decent-level spell for protection. And that should be enough to have them last more than a single round against an opponent. Summoned monsters could help as well, but one can always aim a fireball between them. Also... no restriction on number of buffs, but you gotta cast them, each and every one, so if you go for AC you're still vulnerable to spells and vice versa. High level spells could provide a wizard with both. A high level spell needing for the wizard to keep chanting could be very powerful, but they wouldn't be able to cast other spells, it would only progress the effects of that particular buff - like a multi-layer buff that also attacks enemies. Spells usable as reactions to defend yourself would also be cool, I could totally see a cantrip that works roughly like a shield do that. Of course if everyone's aiming arrows at you, you go fire wall, misty step the f**k out of there and behind the party, and use chain lighting to fry them.
It is a problem anyways, bbegs need to last more than in 5e, that's just too little (but less than 4e, because man those combats went on for hours). Give them more and better reactions, higher ac and saves, more hps, but if they go down in 2 rounds it's just anticlimatic.
When I get to be the player and not the GM I play whatever I can. We spend about 2 years on an AP, so there are plenty of them I haven't jet done.G@#~&$mit, Diego, you still playing Reign of Winter? Sheesh - I can't edit the post, there's no edit thingie! Don't look at it!Spoiler please! I am playing that AP and I don't think I am the only one.Hey guys, I was re-reading an old adventure - Rasputin Must Die! (btw, all manners of awesome).
But something is bothering me.
You see, when you come face to face with the evil monk, he casts on himself a lot of buffs - .....
You're absolutely right, I should've spoilered that whole stuff in the first post... I'm sorry, I don't think I can edit it anymore, too much time has passed (said like that it seems like I wrote it back in the 19th century). If anyone has advice on fixing it, or maybe a mod has 2 seconds they can spare, that'd be pretty nice?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dxICJHd518 Clearly the level of buffing we want from this game right here.Sounds impossible to believe considering it's YT, but it's the comments that really seal the deal for me. They had me almost piss my pants laughing.
Anyways, I can see buffing being the shtick of a character, I was thinking. Totally. Just one, though, not that every. single. caster you meet hears you coming and starts the Buff Routine like they were gonna solo a world boss. Show a little confidence, villains of Golarion.
(BTW, do you know if she one-shots him after all that jazz?).
(I enjoyed them going through the pre-fight buffs, but this is from one of my favorite shows. It's a little less silly in context.)
The actual fight is pretty epic, and hinges on one of the pre-combat buffs.
Is it on YouTube by any chance? What should I google for? Also, please tell me again the name of this anime, I might want to watch it while I wait for 2e.
I think there is a Goldilocks zone between PF1 and 5E for buffs. I am hoping stat caps and resonance can dial it back in PF2. I also hope that a lot of the need for piles of buffs will be baked into leveling so they are less necessary at higher levels.
Yes, yes and yes. I am SURE there's a Goldilock zone there. Resonance I don't know, but stat caps could help. And definitely, make characters stronger so that if they don't have 2,496 buffs they can still fight well and last more than half a round.
I can appreciate buffing as a player, but as a DM, it drives me slightly insane having to track that stuff on NPCs. For things I design for homebrew is one thing (I can design without them), but when NPCs in adventure paths use it, one greater dispel magic will leave you sitting at the table for 5 minutes while you figure out new stats.
Just as bad are creatures from bestiaries who figure CRs with buffs cast, yet don't have them reflected in the "default" stat blocks. It's especially prevalent with creatures like angels and devils, things with stuff like unholy aura, righteous might, etc. When my Pit fiend goes down in 2 rounds because I didn't have my power attack turned on, my magic circles engaged, my unholy aura cast, or whatnot, it drives me nuts, and it's compounded in a fight with multiple foes. At least you can force the players to keep track of their own buffs, but I don't need compounded complexity on top of plot, number crunching and basic tactics.
it depends on what the designers want from Pathfinder. If it's to cater to existing players at the expense of new ones, then the complexity is warranted. But I also would not expect any new GM with only a year or two under their belts to keep track of anything over about a combat with 7th or 8th level PCs and their foes.
As a GM I can tell you if buffs aren't reined in I very well might not play PF2 and instead stay with 5e, but thankfully it very much appears the 10-15 buffs problem has been taken care of, so I'm quite confident this edition will hit a very, very sweet spot for me.