After reading the Monk blog, it actually looks like they pushed the monk pretty far over into the fighting Martial Artist category, with the Monk having to chose feats to go a more mystical route. I am not sure how different the STR monk will be from a fighter that specializes in unarmed except that the monk will be far more limited in the Armor category. I am very interested to see what general feats look like now. It might just be the case that the fighter is not going to be capable of being very good at unarmed combat. At least not in the initial play test.
Style Feats sound like a pretty fun diferential. They can add new properties to unarmed strikes/weapons while also granting other bonuses.
I agree they sound fun, but it doesn't sound that different from fighter's combos. I am looking forward to seeing the play test book, and hopefully it will make more sense to me then, but if fighters can get legendary armor proficiency with a feat, it seems like most of the things a STR based monk gets could easily have fit into a archetype for the fighter.
I agree they sound fun, but it doesn't sound that different from fighter's combos. I am looking forward to seeing the play test book, and hopefully it will make more sense to me then, but if fighters can get legendary armor proficiency with a feat, it seems like most of the things a STR based monk gets could easily have fit into a archetype for the fighter.
My sense is that fighter combos are more about Opening->Follow Up->Finisher, but monk styles are more like switching weapons to match your opponent. But a lot of what I'm getting this from is intuiting from limited information.
Monks also sound waaaaay more mobile than Fighters, which isn't nothing. Also better saves. I guess you could give those + flurry to some fighter variant if you wanted. But that's like saying you could just give the Fighter Rage options and get rid of the Barbarian, isn't it?
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Well, I'd imagine that "unarmed fighter" is a thing. I'd be disappointed if it wasn't, although you may need to dip into monk a little for it (however that works).
From the Fighter Blog:
"[A]t 3rd level, you gain weapon mastery, which increases your proficiency rank with one group of weapons to master. Your proficiency rank increases to legendary at 13th level, making you truly the best with the weapons of your choice. At 19th level, you become a legend with all simple and martial weapons!"So long as "unarmed strikes" are a valid group of weapons, the fighter would still rank up in them. They's be at 1d4 instead of 1d6 like the Monk has, but the proficiency bonus would still apply. Assuming that going weaponless is good for defense and grapples, a heavily armored unarmed fighter could be effective without feeling too similar to the monk.
Of course, if a Monk were to sacrifice a few class features in order to wear armor, he'd still have the mobility options of a Monk, making him feel different from an unarmed fighter.
That's what I think will happen.
The one thing I'd note on that is that Styles will affect what unarmed strikes can do. While a Legendary Unarmed Strike fighter might be legendary with 1d4 unarmed strikes, the Monk might be Master (but probably legendary) with 1d10 Backswing unarmed strikes, or 1d6 finesse agile unarmed strikes, or other versions we haven't seen yet. With the increased impact of the damage die, this means that unless the Unarmed Fighter gets something to compensate, they'll always be second fiddle.
For my personal take, I feel like this is the worst of both worlds. Monks take opportunity costs to be even ok at the non-unarmed things that they thematically should get, and Fighters take major penalties (barring any archetypes, but I wouldn't hold my breath) on unarmed strikes, even if they decide that they want to be unarmed masters. This feels like it's segmenting things based on default flavor, as opposed to an openness to expansion to broader concepts. Now I don't have a problem with default flavor, but I like to go outside the lines a bit, and see what the class can represent that isn't just the archetypical class.
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2e Monk "The Fighter but too poor to afford weapons or armour, sometimes with a 1/day spell". :P
Sorry, 2e Monk "A mobile Fighter who forgot he could train in weapons or armour, and can get a handful of supernatural powers that can be used effectively only once per day". :P
Just like how a barbarian is "a slightly tougher fighter who sometimes gets angry and then tired" and a Paladin is "a well armoured fighter with a stick up their arse that has a horse and can sometimes touch people."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xECUrlnXCqk
And their supernatural powers can be used multiple times a day.
Doesn't really look like it given how little spell points they get. They barely get any uses at all.
I think you are being heavily reductionist just because you don't like the class.
I like the Monk class.
And their supernatural powers can be used multiple times a day.
Their 100% optional feattax supernatural powers that let them be the tiniest bit mystical and more than just Fighter2.
Just like how a barbarian is "a slightly tougher fighter who sometimes gets angry and then tired" and a Paladin is "a well armoured fighter with a stick up their arse that has a horse and can sometimes touch people."https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xECUrlnXCqk
And their supernatural powers can be used multiple times a day.Doesn't really look like it given how little spell points they get. They barely get any uses at all.
I think you are being heavily reductionist just because you don't like the class.I like the Monk class.
Well, we only know there starting amount is equal to their wisdom modifier, which probably starts at at least +2 and goes up from there. We also know most new spell powers grant additional spell points, though not how many. Let's assume 2 based on the druid, though I suspect different classes may gain Dork points at different rates.
A 5th level monk with 2 ki powers can use them in any combination 5 times a day. That's actually as good or better than a 5th level monk's ki pool in PF1. Admittedly, not enough ki points was a common complaint about the monk already. But once a day it ain't.
Right on, that's cool; I asked in the Monk thread, but can you explain how Flurry works, in regards to the combining damage, how does it work out, exactly? Let's say you make your first attack, and it hits, you roll damage, then you make your second attack, it hits, you roll damage, and then what?A monk can spend a feat in order to use weapons with the "Monk" trait (lets see how many and how good they are but the blog mentioned a Temple Sword) and have those work as unarmed for all monk class features. This is pretty reasonable I feel. Getting to Flurry with a sword for example at no investment would mean either nerfing Flurry or taking something else away from the class (and would make unarmed monks straight up worse.)I like the Stances granting different Unarmed weapon types, but it seems the base monk is now completely sans weapons?
I really want to see more armour and weapons to get a feel for things.
Roll attack twice. Roll damage based on that, and add it together. (At a certain level, hitting with both bumps up the damage dice.) Then apply resistance/weakness.
Well, we only know there starting amount is equal to their wisdom modifier, which probably starts at at least +2 and goes up from there. We also know most new spell powers grant additional spell points, though not how many. Let's assume 2 based on the druid, though I suspect different classes may gain Dork points at different rates.
A 5th level monk with 2 ki powers can use them in any combination 5 times a day. That's actually as good or better than a 5th level monk's ki pool in PF1. Admittedly, not enough ki points was a common complaint about the monk already. But once a day it ain't.
That's effectively once per day with each ability to me, considering every other class seems to be able to it's concept (even if they're not as strong as their limited use things) an unlimited amount of times per day.
2e Monk as described in the just can't do Mystic Warrior concept (you can play a Warrior with some minor mystic abilities but they seem the opposite of concept defining), the mystic side is now a very optional and very minimal aspect of the class compared to the martial artist aspect. And to some, Martial Artists are just another warrior/fighter.
Well if you want to be a Mystic Warrior, presumably the Mystic part of your build will be pronounced, which means high Wisdom (which isn't bad seeing how you can have 2 stats at highest.) So when you start your training that'll be 4 uses a day straight out. At worst gaining a new power gives you an extra 2 doses of mysticism. We don't know if there is another way to get more Spell Points. Even without that I can have 15 Ki points by level 10.
Yeah that's no where near enough to me.
It also isn't the Monks core concept.
That's the point of what I'm saying, yes. Mystic Warrior isn't allowed to be the core concept of Monk in 2e, it's Martial Artist.
In fact some classes can't do this. A Wizard can't.
Yes it can... that's why Cantrips automatically scale to remain relevant regardless of level in 2e. Specifically so that the player always has the option of using magic as a wizard.
I feel like cantrips on a monk is a pretty weird demand. I'd think you'd want a kineticist for what you are looking for.
Well, we only know there starting amount is equal to their wisdom modifier, which probably starts at at least +2 and goes up from there. We also know most new spell powers grant additional spell points, though not how many. Let's assume 2 based on the druid, though I suspect different classes may gain Dork points at different rates.
We actually do know how many each spell power feat gives the monk.
Quivering Palm costs 2 Spell Points, and as with the monk's other Spell Point abilities, taking the 16th-level feat to get this spell increases your Spell Point pool by 2.
Also, the quote system SUCKS on a phone.
I feel like cantrips on a monk is a pretty weird demand. I'd think you'd want a kineticist for what you are looking for.
While I have no real horse in this race (Though I will say, I'd rather the starting Ki pool be bigger), but I could see the logic for more at will mystic abilities. Other previously Per Day abilities like Barbarian Rage or Paladin's Smite, are no longer limited the same way. And Paizo has also gotten more comfortable with things like "As long as you have at least one [Grit point/Ki point/spell point/ect]" abilities doing cool things.
I like the basic chassis of the monk right now and I'm not mad that 'Mystic Warrior' is one of modular options the class can choose to build into rather than being the only core concept.
Let there be diverse build options I say!
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I feel like cantrips on a monk is a pretty weird demand. I'd think you'd want a kineticist for what you are looking for.While I have no real horse in this race (Though I will say, I'd rather the starting Ki pool be bigger), but I could see the logic for more at will mystic abilities. Other previously Per Day abilities like Barbarian Rage or Paladin's Smite, are no longer limited the same way. And Paizo has also gotten more comfortable with things like "As long as you have at least one [Grit point/Ki point/spell point/ect]" abilities doing cool things.
I would think Flurry of Blows is the closer equivalent to Rage and Smite, which is all day. Stunning Fist also isn't mentioned as having any limited uses and is instead just a special action, so it seems like a 2e monk could potentially Flurry and Stunning Fist every single round, which is fairly impressive given that it appears to be something you can do starting right at 1st level.
So as far as "all day" stuff, the monk looks to have at least one good offensive class feature and one solid debuffing option. The ki point abilities referenced in the blog are ki strike (gets you ki points = to Wis mod, can be activated for +1 to attack roll), abundant step (teleport), ki blast (pretty self-explanatory), quivering palm (insta-death), and wind jump (flight). We know that each of those grants two ki points when you gain it and that quivering palm costs two, but we don't know how much the others cost. Assuming you've got an 18 Wis and e.g. ki strike plus three other ki powers, that's 10 ki points. Assuming Quivering Palm represents the more powerful edge of those abilities at 2 ki points, that presumably means you have 5 uses per day of your most powerful stuff, up to 10 uses per day of anything that costs 1 ki point, or some combination of those two, such as 2 Quivering Palm type effects and 6 ki strikes (assuming ki strike costs 1 ki point).
That's actually a pretty solid set of options when set on top of at-will wall running, flurries, debuffs, etc. And we don't know how multiclassing works yet, but we do know that spell points gained from different sources can all be put towards the same use, so presumably a multiclass cleric/monk or monk/druid is going to have a pretty significant pool of points to use.
Alright it isn't good enough for you. Cool. Doesn't mean the Monk is just a Fighter variant. If you want to be a Mystic Warrior I guess it'll be best to flavour Barbarian totems how you like or multiclass.
To me the flavour is the same. It's just a warrior who mastered fighting unarmed and unarmoured rather than being a master of weapons.
And yeah Wizards get Cantrips all day. Monks also get Flurry, Stunning Fist, extra move speed, fantastic saves, better feats of physical prowess etc etc etc all day.
Yes? The sky is blue? The earth spins around the sun? I agree with this.
My point was that their all day stuff is all the martial artist stuff, because martial artist is the core concept of the class.
I feel like cantrips on a monk is a pretty weird demand. I'd think you'd want a kineticist for what you are looking for.
Not asking for cantrips, I just wanted Mystic Warrior to be a viable concept for monk.
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I mean if you keep investing (assuming there are enough feats) and we assume that you can only ever increase it by 2 each feat that still caps out at 26 Spell Points a day, which is probably enough to use Ki stuff 1/3 of the combat rounds or more.
Assuming all of the other assumptions are correct, and that a high level ki power costs 2 spell points like we know Quivering Palm does and most others cost 1, then 26 spell points maps out to being actually a bit better than a current edition 4 level caster. 3 of your "highest level" powers would be 6 spell points, leaving you with 18. A paladin typically has 3 of their highest level spell slots and 11 spell slots across spell levels 1-3, so you'd be a bit ahead of the current core curve if your vision of a mystic warrior can be embodied by a class equivalent to a current edition paladin, ranger, or bloodrager. Actually, given that we know that the number of spell slots full casters get has gone down, that would make a monk with 26 spell points a pretty close equivalent to a current edition 2/3 caster, with the flexibility of a 3.5 or Dreamscarred psionic character given that you can spend your spell points on your ki powers in any combination.