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Meh, they MUST have high Charisma... they've convinced us we need 20 threads just for them ;)
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Meh, they MUST have high Charisma... they've convinced us we need 20 threads just for them ;)
GENIUS!
That's why we talk so much about Paladins, too...| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Even though i admit to that i am in general liking most of the PF2 material released, i just cant see why the Goblins is now a core race and why they got the stat bonuses they get.
Its a confusing step as i cant honestly tell who even asked for Goblins as a core race, i know some people played them, but often as a small character with a large dex mod in chaotic themed games. Is Paizo rolling a Retcon on their previous Goblins? Just what the hell is going on?
Oh! Oh!
I know why goblin PCs get +2 CHA!!
Oh! Oh!
It's because all the goblins who didn't get +2 CHA all got stomped to death by the nearest farmhand with a rake. And his dog.
It's one of those Darwinian "survival of the fittest" things. Only gobbos with +2 CHA manage to ingratiate themselves to human society enough not to get exterminated on sight.
I love this, and I'd assume that was part of it too, I could easily imagine the scenario of this conversation.
NPC 1: Why don't we just utterly destroy the little bastards!?
NPC 2: They're funny.
Funny Thing, 3.5 had a Goblin Subrace that boosted strength, dexterity and constitution in exchange for -4 charisma and +1 ECL with the ability to rage cycle from level 1 and a +0 ECL Race of Elves with cold immunity that Boosted strength and constitution by +2 each in exchange for -2 charisma
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You sure you aren't talking about goblins? Goblins have a short attention span, so consistent lying seems like an issue. They are almost universally despised [even by other goblins], no not making friends. Other have called them 'pathetic' and that doesn't sound intimidating... IMO, dwarves have a better claim to a bonus in Cha than a goblin... :P
I didn't compare goblins to dwarves. I agree that, as presented in Golarion material, most goblins would not be good at influencing others.
Goblins are very popular, particularly among more casual players. Look at how successful the We Be Goblins line has been.
They are bringing it in precisely because of popularity with the players.
The We Be Goblins experience is about disruptive evil goblins doing disruptive evil things to each other and enemies. I had fun when I played the scenarios, precisely because they work so much differently than a campaign. The scenarios are single session one-shots, nothing is on the line and the players are free to have their characters engage in 'zany', 'over-the-top' activities, without worrying about how their actions will affect their ability to play in the future. There are no consequences for their actions.
I would not expect this to be the norm for how most games play out.
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Pound for pound humans squeak by tigers according to the link i posted, its gorillas who are the scary MFs
Actually, your link has the strongest man in the world squeaking by tigers. Said man is five times stronger than the average man on the street, and is the product of centuries of athletic science and presumably most of his life dedicated to picking up heavy stuff. We don't have anyway of knowing what the tiger equivalent of a body builder would be. But I think it is safe to say those feats described are closer to the species average than those attributed to the strongest man in the world.
Also, the tiger is said to "carry" twice its weight, which has or may not be intensive than merely "lifting" twice your body weight. Hard to say. But I think regardless of specifics, the point remains that other species can have greater strength to mass ratios than humans. And that's just through actual real world evolution. Once we start looking at species that were created by the the bodily fluids of a diety mingling with the earth (which seeks to be the origin of goblins) then I think we can tell science to shove it where the sun don't shine.
Personally, I'm glad there's a small race that doesn't have a strength penalty, though I am not specifically attached to it being goblins.
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Goblins as a PC race is the worst idea I've heard of. So far this is the single most feature of PF2 likely to ensure I quit.
And yet, it's the easiest announced part of PF2 to ignore.
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Even though i admit to that i am in general liking most of the PF2 material released, i just cant see why the Goblins is now a core race and why they got the stat bonuses they get.
Its a confusing step as i cant honestly tell who even asked for Goblins as a core race, i know some people played them, but often as a small character with a large dex mod in chaotic themed games. Is Paizo rolling a Retcon on their previous Goblins? Just what the hell is going on?
Goblins are very popular, particularly among more casual players. Look at how successful the We Be Goblins line has been.
They are bringing it in precisely because of popularity with the players.
Kind of a false equivalence. Just because a module or module series providing a break from standard adventuring is popular doesn't mean people are interested in having them be part of a regular game. Everyone I know at least has run we be goblins as a one off while the gm prepared the next section of the campaign.
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We need some WAR art about gobos in the gym stat!
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Prior to the PF2 playtest, NPC goblins had 6 charisma and PC goblins had a generous -2 charisma. Goblins have never been good at tricking others with charisma rolls.
Having goblins with a charisma bonus is like deciding that halflings should have a strength bonus, elves should have a constitution bonus and dwarves should have a charisma bonus.
More 'or' than 'and' since it's only one change. But yes, it's clearly a change.
However, from description, goblins having a Charisma penalty instead of one to Wisdom was always deeply odd. I'm fine with them deciding to correct that oddness in the new edition.
Heck, as mentioned, I'm cool with switching the Halfling bonus from Cha to Wis as well. It's not as major a change, but the mere fact that the new edition changes something is not a factor I object to.
No they are both. Qlippoths are some ancient, primordial, extraplanar insanity horror. The game designers gave them charisma-based special abilities (that they are supposed to be effective with) and specifically called out effective charisma based defenses against planar binding. That I disagree with the design is actually a separate issue, but is still relevant to this charisma discussion in a different way. Sorry if I worded that poorly.
Alright. But I strongly disagree they were poorly designed. A lot of Pathfinder creatures that are deeply horrifying looking or unpleasant have high Charisma. I mean, aside from Qlippoth, Liches, Hags, and Aboleths all leap immediately to mind.
No need to be rude.
I'm sorry if I came off that way, that was not my intent.
Yes, animals are strong and they may seem a lot stronger than sedentary humans. But humans who routinely do manual labor are not that far in strength from these animal feats. Your first tiger reference seems weak. It seems unlikely that these 13 people had any experience dragging animals, otherwise I would have expected a better performance from the humans.
Very possible! But that was an ordinary tiger. comparing it to ordinary humans thus seems reasonable. Yes, the tiger is probably in better shape and more experienced at the task, but even if you assume experienced humans would do more than twice as well, allowing six of them (half the number who couldn't move it at all) to move it as far as the tiger...that's still likely twice the tiger's weight in humans. Possibly more like three times.
The leopard example is unimpressive, except for big cats abilities to climb trees with claws and carry stuff with their mouth. That seems like an unfair comparison point to humans who don't have claws or strong mandibles.
Carrying twice your body weight long distances while performing difficult physical activity is something most leopards can do. Even with a backpack (to make up for lacking teeth to hold the item) and rappelling gear (to make up for the lack of claws) do you really think most humans could carry double their body weight on a climb after pulling it a few hundred yards?
I'm not saying no human has ever been capable of such a feat, I'm sure some exceptional person has been, but that's a pretty normal leopard, not an exceptional one. An exceptional one would do even better.