Can someone tell me?
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It should be noted that while MAD does exist, it is most frequently complained about by players who think their character needs a maximized main stat in order to function well. (Usually this is not the case, as the player is erroneously envisioning his build stomping through DPR simulations rather than being a balanced package of offense, defense, saves, and skills.)
well, yoiu can't make a practical arcanist without at least INT 16 at the start (with racial mods counted in... basically, he should be able to get a stat of 20 by lvl 16) and at least a CHA of 14 or 16. The first being for his spellcasting ability, the other for all the bonuses he'll get from his exploits. and no, I don't deem item based enhancements as acceptable, since the items can be taken away.
Sorry if I seem to rant, but I reread my ACG yesterday and was struck by the bizarreness of a class that's essentially a wizard, but with all the school powers being CHA fuelled.
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MAD is mostly a problem because the most effective classes in the game (9th level spell casters) are pretty universally single stat dependent. And a rewarded far more for investing heavily into that 1 stat, then a lot of other classes that have to spread their points out of 3+ stats to become effective.
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Wouldn't all melee classes be MAD since all the physical ability scores are important?
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Wouldn't all melee classes be MAD since all the physical ability scores are important?
Basically, but some are far worse than others.
For instance, to be effective in combat the barbarian only really needs strength and con. Fighters can get by with the same. Really, anyone that focuses on wielding a 2 handed weapon and using power attack can do that. And while it's not as nice as being SAD, it's not really a problem.
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All characters need more than one stat. . What MAD really means is needing multiple high stats. The best example is the Monk. They need WIS for many class abilities, they also need good STR for damage, and will want good CON and DEX for AC, and saves. Dumping INT means they probably won’t have enough skill points to get what they need. That leaves only CHA as a dump stat.
A Wizard obviously needs a high INT for spells. They will want good CON and DEX for AC, HP and saves. A wizard who dumps s CON or DEX will probably not survive. They don’t need high scores in these just good. They don’t really need CHA so that can be dumped hard. They have good Will saves so dumping WIS is not really that much of a problem.
Basically a MAD character is going to want 3 or more stats above 16. A SAD character is only going to need 1 stat above 16, and probably only 2 stats in the 12-14 range. Most other characters fall somewhere in between.
Contrast it with SAD, or Single Ability Dependent, like Summoner (Charisma). SAD can be at full power, basically, with lower point-buy, while MAD classes tend to be more limited. This is why low point buys don't necessarily make classes weaker, since you can almost always make at least one stat good.
No class is SAD
Everyone needs CON + Main Stat.
That said: being MAD is sometimes to a characters advantage.
Kensai is an example of this. A well built kensai has multiple stats that all stack when applied to the same think.
E.g. A DEX/INT focused kensai gets both DEX and INT to AC, Init, AoOs and Damage.
Because there two stats, there are two places he can apply bonuses from, making that next +1 cheaper and potentially getting nearly double the bonuses available to other classes.
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The question, as I see it, is what ability(s) a class needs to fulfill its primary intended role in the game. A battlefield control wizard probably wants high health, but that's not necessary to achieve its main goal. Desirable? Yes. Needed? No.
A dead character has no role to fulfill.
Since survival is necessary for all classes to function, CON and the benefits it bestows is required for all classes.
If anything, the casters in the games I run invest in CON belts earlier than the martials, who are instead investing in STR or DEX belts. It is not uncommon for the full casters in my games to just as many or more hit points than the fighters.
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Everyone needs CON + Main Stat.
not if you get rid of that pesky con stat by turning yourself into an undead or construct. After all, that will never backfire on you.....
the sad Lich is SAD.
Everyone needs CON + Main Stat.not if you get rid of that pesky con stat by turning yourself into an undead or construct. After all, that will never backfire on you.....
the sad Lich is SAD.
He had to survive long enough to qualify for Lich.
And if he's a wizard, he's just substituted one stat requirement for another. Now he needs INT + CHA.
Assuming the GM house rules a means for a PC to become a lich and allows the player to use it without becoming an NPC. Nothing RAW spells out the process.
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. It is not uncommon for the full casters in my games to just as many or more hit points than the fighters.
That is pretty unusual. If the full caster is a D8 class that still means that the caster has to have a Con stat THREE higher than the fighter. And for a d6 class that means FIVE higher.
Most games I've seen the martials take a LOT more damage than the casters (that is part of their job) and the casters only really take damage from AofE type stuff and the occassional ambush.
Don't get me wrong, my casters have at LEAST a con of 12 before belts (and I try really hard to get them to 14), their favoured class bonus in hit points and often have toughness. Hit points ARE important, they're the defense of last resort. But they still have a LOT less hit points than the martials.
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"MAD" stands for "Literally Unplayable According to Players Who Put Way Too Much Stock In High Ability Scores".
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. It is not uncommon for the full casters in my games to just as many or more hit points than the fighters.That is pretty unusual. If the full caster is a D8 class that still means that the caster has to have a Con stat THREE higher than the fighter. And for a d6 class that means FIVE higher.
Most games I've seen the martials take a LOT more damage than the casters (that is part of their job) and the casters only really take damage from AofE type stuff and the occassional ambush.
Don't get me wrong, my casters have at LEAST a con of 12 before belts (and I try really hard to get them to 14), their favoured class bonus in hit points and often have toughness. Hit points ARE important, they're the defense of last resort. But they still have a LOT less hit points than the martials.
Wizard is d6
Fighter is d10If the wizard and fighter both start with the same CON (usually 14), the wizard needs a +4 belt to equal the fighters hit points.
Specific to my games: Gnomes and Kyton Spawn tieflings are both common choices for casters. They tend to start with a 16 CON, pick up belts, and take Toughness. Not all of this is strictly due to HP: Failed fortitude saves kill.
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Being SAD does not mean having 5 dump stats. It means that an optimized version only needs one really high stat.
Being MAD means an optimized version has 3 or more really high stats.
There are very few builds that require 3 high stats, unless you count CON as one of the three.
And make no mistake, they are builds, not entire classes.
Monk, Str, Dx, Wis, not necessarily in that order, and Con is desirable too, as is INt, and please don't dump the cha to ther point nobody sane will want to interact with the poor guy.
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Monk, Str, Dx, Wis, not necessarily in that order, and Con is desirable too, as is INt, and please don't dump the cha to ther point nobody sane will want to interact with the poor guy.
Monk is either STR/WIS focused with some DEX, or he dumps STR entirely and goes DEX to damage.
Specific archetypes/builds can function as WIS only (zen archer) or STR only (Sohei).
As for the Con/Int/Cha - the same statement can be made for any class that does not use them as a primary stat.
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That is pretty unusual. If the full caster is a D8 class that still means that the caster has to have a Con stat THREE higher than the fighter. And for a d6 class that means FIVE higher.
Most games I've seen the martials take a LOT more damage than the casters (that is part of their job) and the casters only really take damage from AofE type stuff and the occassional ambush.
Don't get me wrong, my casters have at LEAST a con of 12 before belts (and I try really hard to get them to 14), their favoured class bonus in hit points and often have toughness. Hit points ARE important, they're the defense of last resort. But they still have a LOT less hit points than the martials.
No offense, but that math is way off. A d6 has an average of 3.5, a d10 an average of 5.5. A Con bonus two higher brings you to match them on average. And since casters are not concerned as much about needing to boost their other ability scores, they can literally go all in on the two scores when it comes to stat allocation and magic items. I currently have a Dwarf wizard with the second most HP in the party. (I'm beat by a barbarian with more Con than Str)
I dunno. I tend to Dex the crap out of my casters--I like ranged touch spells, and I'll take any AC bonus I can get. So I generally have Dex, Con, casting stat, and possibly Charisma if I'm worried about opposed checks or the character's a druid with wild empathy.
a D8 partial caster with a lot of Con can equal a d10 person with comparatively dumped Con (in a D&D5 game, my warlock is rivalling the paladin, thanks to lucky rolls)
but yeah, my evidence is a fluke and unapplicable to d6 casters.
a D8 partial caster with a lot of Con can equal a d10 person with comparatively dumped Con (in a D&D5 game, my warlock is rivalling the paladin, thanks to lucky rolls)
Kineticist comes to my mind, with d8 and a focus on Con.
Playing a rogue, I enjoy to be able to make good use of any ability score boost that comes my way. Whether from point-buy (with its cheap boosts at lower numbers), race choice, spells, potions or belts / headbands - doesn't matter, I'd take it and turn it into multiple benefits. Hence I am not a fan of a dismissive term like "MAD", rather I'd go with something neutral like MAU (multiple attributes user).
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I usually do 4-14's, with one of them going into a 16. +2 HP/lvl, +2 Fort Save. +2 AC, +2 Ref saves. WIS doesn't have to be high, but shouldn't ever be dump statted IMHO. Str 16 for fighters, Int or Cha 16 for the other classes. Paladins are about the only MAD ones out there since they need both str and cha. The difference between +2 damage and +4 damage is pretty minimal, over the long haul. But a +2 on your saves can save you from a lot of things (including instant death occasionally).
We've had a dump statted sorcerer in our party with a 7 str. PFS modules are written to make you abuse suck non-sense as a GM. "You need to pick up these wooden melee weapons and use them since you are training as soldiers. No magic." Um... BONED. Trying to use ranged is just as bad since the character doesn't have the "shoot into melee" feat (sorcerers are feat light). Might as well be swinging a sword at -2 instead of the +2 dex, -4 shooting into melee... of course she does more damage if she hits with the bow since she doesn't lose 2 points of damage.
Also, I am "old school" where 18 was the best you could really hope to have. So after 40 years of D&D, 20 doesn't really seem necessary. Just because you can doesn't mean you should.
It should be noted that while MAD does exist, it is most frequently complained about by players who think their character needs a maximized main stat in order to function well. (Usually this is not the case, as the player is erroneously envisioning his build stomping through DPR simulations rather than being a balanced package of offense, defense, saves, and skills.)
MAD is desirable to munchkins / undesirable to designers precisely because it would allow a character to derive his offense, defense, saves, and skills from a single stat.
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Also, I am "old school" where 18 was the best you could really hope to have. So after 40 years of D&D, 20 doesn't really seem necessary. Just because you can doesn't mean you should.
I usually start with a 17 in my main stat for everyone except wizard, which I sometimes push to 18.
I enjoy having a little DEX and CON on my casters.
I have exactly one PFS character I started with two 20's, and he's a joke character. A crossblooded sorcerer with CON and CHA maxed. He also has a 7 WIS and a 7 INT.
Mungo like burn things.
Also, I am "old school" where 18 was the best you could really hope to have. So after 40 years of D&D, 20 doesn't really seem necessary. Just because you can doesn't mean you should.I usually start with a 17 in my main stat for everyone except wizard, which I sometimes push to 18.
I had one wizard who started with a 20...and that was unnecessary in PFS (and delayed the next even bump all the way until 8th, which meant 4th was myeh instead of special). Otherwise, I had a dwarf barbarian with a dash of cleric who started with a strength of 15. Had a triple-classed monk/ninja/clerc (BAB0 at 3rd) who used a 14,14,13,12,12,12 20pt array in PFS; once he had his Moonlight Stalker gimmick going, it was like he started with 18s, and it only got better from there.
I have exactly one PFS character I started with two 20's, and he's a joke character. A crossblooded sorcerer with CON and CHA maxed. He also has a 7 WIS and a 7 INT. Mungo like burn things.
Yikes. two 18s (before human Dual Talent) costs 34. -8 for two 7s leaves a still-overbudgeted 26, which means a third 7 and an 8 elsewhere (dex, I'm guessing).
Jeez... If you didn't take Iron Will at 1st level level, your will save started at -2 as a cross-blooded with 7 wis.
As you said, a joke character. (Is he still going?)
Monk, Str, Dx, Wis, not necessarily in that order, and Con is desirable too, as is INt, and please don't dump the cha to ther point nobody sane will want to interact with the poor guy.Monk is either STR/WIS focused with some DEX, or he dumps STR entirely and goes DEX to damage.
Specific archetypes/builds can function as WIS only (zen archer) or STR only (Sohei).
As for the Con/Int/Cha - the same statement can be made for any class that does not use them as a primary stat.
The problem with monks comes up at early levels- they get wisdom to AC if they do not use armor, and they lack armor proficiency. This is a problem, since it is hard to make up for the lost AC. This is what makes many people turn towards turtled monks if they start from level 1- they go high dex/wis... which makes it hard to actually do anything early on since they don't have much str.
Higher level monks can mostly avoid this- the ability to use two different stat boosting items to boost AC, along with scaling class bonuses to AC and AC bracers, eventually makes even moderately invested monks tanky. But early level though...
Sohei monks can avoid the early level problem- they can just use light armor to get by. Eventually, they still get better AC if they switch to unarmored... but they can get through the early levels. Additionally, they still like wisdom, even if they remain armored (likely due to brawling armor)- wisdom does add to ki pool, afterall.
It should be noted that while MAD does exist, it is most frequently complained about by players who think their character needs a maximized main stat in order to function well. (Usually this is not the case, as the player is erroneously envisioning his build stomping through DPR simulations rather than being a balanced package of offense, defense, saves, and skills.)MAD is desirable to munchkins / undesirable to designers precisely because it would allow a character to derive his offense, defense, saves, and skills from a single stat.That's SAD.
I play a lot of PoW characters, which always have two primary scores (Str or Dex depending on build, then one mental score that powers their class abilities and saves), and I like that setup.
Yeah, I wrote the wrong thing and it was too late to edit it. The thing is, every class can be SAD when it comes to damage alone: Get Strength and swing weapon, or boost your casting stat for a higher DC on your damage spells. DPR is not the point of chasing SADness, everything else is.
The problem with monks comes up at early levels- they get wisdom to AC if they do not use armor, and they lack armor proficiency. This is a problem, since it is hard to make up for the lost AC.
The common solution to this is to be something else at 1st level (such as Ranger) to obtain both weapon and armor proficiencies. Prior to buying a headband and getting a 4th level bump to a 17 wis, the bonus isn't going to exceed what he'd get from a chainshirt anyway. (Another option, if you don't dump charisma, is Dangerously Curious and a wand of Mage Armor bought for 2pp in PFS.)
The problem with monks comes up at early levels- they get wisdom to AC if they do not use armor, and they lack armor proficiency. This is a problem, since it is hard to make up for the lost AC.The common solution to this is to be something else at 1st level (such as Ranger) to obtain both weapon and armor proficiencies. Prior to buying a headband and getting a 4th level bump to a 17 wis, the bonus isn't going to exceed what he'd get from a chainshirt anyway. (Another option, if you don't dump charisma, is Dangerously Curious and a wand of Mage Armor bought for 2pp in PFS.)
yes, but that just points out the problem- the player has to actively patch the class with specific out-of-class options in order to get it to basic suitability early on.
Sure, some full casters have a similar problem, but they are in the back line, rather than the front line like the common monk.
Lets compare that to the shifter- which steals the monk's AC mechanics and improves them. The shifter allows you to add wisdom to AC when unarmored... or you can get 1/2 wisdom to AC when wearing druid appropriate armor. That allows you to easily grab good armor early on so you can survive.
Sure, the armor doesn't help much once they start wildshaping (unless they get barding or wild armor), but this allows them to survive the early levels until they can grab some nice items.
As such, the shifter benefits from its multiple stats, but it isn't overly reliant on them. While the shifter could use some work, this was a fairly good move that allowed it to function in a variety of ways.
yes, but that just points out the problem- the player has to actively patch the class with specific out-of-class options in order to get it to basic suitability early on.
Well, there is at least Dodge on the bonus feat list. And you can pick up Crane Style to make fighting defensively more attractive.
yes, but that just points out the problem- the player has to actively patch the class with specific out-of-class options in order to get it to basic suitability early on.
And some people just refuse to use available options because it's not part of the "Core" class.
Equipment and magic items are there for a reason. It is a basic assumption of the game that characters will use them, and are balanced around this assumption.
yes, but that just points out the problem- the player has to actively patch the class with specific out-of-class options in order to get it to basic suitability early on.And some people just refuse to use available options because it's not part of the "Core" class.
Equipment and magic items are there for a reason. It is a basic assumption of the game that characters will use them, and are balanced around this assumption.
Yes, but a band aid doesn't mean that the underlying problem is not there. You will need to spend time and resources to cover up a problem just because you are unable to wear metal pants.
It is less of a problem for a wizard because the wizard can just use spell slots to do it for free every day- and it gets easier and easier for the wizard to do it because those early slots become less important and the duration of the spell gets longer with caster level. Additionally, wizards are made with this type of self buffing in mind.
In comparison, the monk would have to spend skill points to get UMD and then they have to use a wand (and the cheap wands usually don't have great duration).
Lets not pretend the problem isn't there just because we can theorycraft it away on paper. There is a noticeable cost to using these resources to solve this problem. You are trading problems, not eliminating them.
Our base monk didn't seem to have any trouble keeping up during the first few levels. The only times she nearly died were when she did something unwise, like leaping into the middle of things so that she ended up surrounded by enemies. As her tactics improved, her survivability went up dramatically.
Yes, but a band aid doesn't mean that the underlying problem is not there. You will need to spend time and resources to cover up a problem just because you are unable to wear metal pants.yes, but that just points out the problem- the player has to actively patch the class with specific out-of-class options in order to get it to basic suitability early on.And some people just refuse to use available options because it's not part of the "Core" class.
Equipment and magic items are there for a reason. It is a basic assumption of the game that characters will use them, and are balanced around this assumption.
The basic assumptions of the game are not band aids. Their existence and presumed usage is part of the balance used when classes are created.
The presence of Mage Armor potions and stat enhancing items are no more a band aid than heavy armor and weapons. They are tools meant to be used.
a monk dipping into bloodrager? how deep? I know this is pure fluff, but I tend to think that the monk's meditative ways would go straight opposite to the bloodrager's battle rage.
(Another option, if you don't dump charisma, is Dangerously Curious and a wand of Mage Armor bought for 2pp in PFS.)yes, but that just points out the problem- the player has to actively patch the class with specific out-of-class options in order to get it to basic suitability early on.
The fact that class "A" can become better or even OP with a dip into "B" does not mean that "A" was a teetering wreck that "needed" that "patch" to "suitably" function.
(But then I'm a guy that sticks fighter into wizard and cleric into barbarian, so YMMV.)
Sure, some full casters have a similar problem, but they are in the back line, rather than the front line like the common monk.
1. I wish my casters could reliability dictate where the battle lines are. In my experience, it's a luxury.
2. Monks are flexible survivors, not alpha-strikers. They fast-track all saves, get Evasion, and have Acrobatics, Escape Artist, Perception, Sense Motive, and Survival on their class skill list. They're up to three attacks per round at 4th with Ki.Lets compare that to the shifter- which steals the monk's AC mechanics and improves them. The shifter allows you to add wisdom to AC when unarmored... or you can get 1/2 wisdom to AC when wearing druid appropriate armor. That allows you to easily grab good armor early on so you can survive.Shifters forfeit the monk's Evasion, will save advancement, Escape Artist, and Ki pool. (They don't get Intimidate either, which is odd in a class whose gimmick is changing into beasts.)
Sure, the armor doesn't help much once they start wildshaping (unless they get barding or wild armor), but this allows them to survive the early levels until they can grab some nice items.
The best low-level monks that I saw in PFS laid back and fired shurikens, and were darned effective at picking off "lingerers" at those levels in which anything hit by the main martial and not already dead likely had well under 10hp left.