Can Any Character Take Greater Skald's Vigor at Level 10?


Rules Questions


https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/greater-skald-s-vigor/

I have a player who's bothered by the fact that Greater Skald's Vigor requires 10 Perform rather than 11 Perform. He's trying to figure out how the feat could even be taken at level 10.

My guess is it's just that way because things like Skill Focus double at 10 HD and Improved Blind Fight takes 10 ranks in Perception...but the former can be taken prior to 10 HD and the latter can be taken by Fighters.

Can anyone take Greater Skald's Vigor at level 10?


Retraining could make it happen. Or someone who did not max perform might not qualify until level 11 or later.


Yeah there are other things like that. DISCORDANT VOICE requires perform 10.
It's possible that there's an archetype that can take a bonus feat at level 10, or that they were planning on making an archetype that would have been able to (or just leaving it open to one).
It does mean that you can save 1 skill point if that's the only reason you're taking that skill.


He is bothered that you have access to something earlier rather than later?

Wow.

Why? Why does he think it should require 11?

BAB requirements usually use 11, as it's where you get another attack. But most skill based requirements are based on 10, as the examples provided show.

Oh no, I can get this early and use it longer and spend less to get it, I'm mad.

Silver Crusade

VoodistMonk wrote:
He is bothered that you have access to something earlier rather than later?

You get Feats at odd levels, not even. So outside of Retraining a character is not getting it earlier.


It's still a skill point you can put somewhere else, nothing to get butt-hurt about. It costs less... That isn't a reason to be bothered, at all. If he wants to put 11 points in Perform, he can, nobody is stopping him. However, a Skald multiclassed with anything that gets bonus feats can take it at 10, so what? It seems like an extremely petty thing to get one's panties in a bunch.


The OP said the player was bothered about getting a feat option for a level you don't get feats.

Bothered. Not "butt hurt" or "bunched panties " or "petty".

And he's right it's only way to get it is usually retraining, which may not be allowed. That's bothersome.

For the OP, allow retraining. If the player wishes to lose an older feat for this one, that's what you retrain for. Just so long as prereqs are still met. Past That, wait a level.


Cavall wrote:

The OP said the player was bothered about getting a feat option for a level you don't get feats.

Bothered. Not "butt hurt" or "bunched panties " or "petty".

And he's right it's only way to get it is usually retraining, which may not be allowed. That's bothersome.

For the OP, allow retraining. If the player wishes to lose an older feat for this one, that's what you retrain for. Just so long as prereqs are still met. Past That, wait a level.

It's not bothersome, and it is petty. It's a feat. With prerequisites. You take feats when you can or you retrain old feats, just like everyone else. You meet the requirements or you don't, just like everyone else.

Maybe you put a skill point in something else and didn't start on Perform until level 2, now you have 10 in Perform and you are level 11, where you get a feat.

Just because you only get feats at odd levels doesn't mean that all prerequisites should follow suit. If anything, the player in question should be happy that it's not required to commit to that feat 11 levels in advance.


Ya you're kind of projecting. That's not how petty works.

He's just asking why a feat has an even level prereq and what to do about it.


What to do about it is the exact same as any other feat with prerequisites... Wait until you meet the requirements, then take the feat at your next opportunity.

That's how these things work. What if you had dipped your first level as a class without Perform as a skill? But now ten levels of Skald later, you now have ten points in Perform at level 11...

I still don't see the problem. Sorry if I caused any trouble. I'm out.


Balkoth wrote:
I have a player who's bothered by the fact that Greater Skald's Vigor requires 10 Perform rather than 11 Perform. He's trying to figure out how the feat could even be taken at level 10.

So the original question was basically:

1. Is there a way to get this feat at level 10?
2. If not, why this design decision?

There's nothing here that makes me think he's "mad", "petty", "butt-hurt", or has his "panties in a bunch".

You're right that "What to do about it is the exact same as any other feat with prerequisites", but since this is in the Rules forum, we expect people to ask questions with seemingly obvious answers - that's what this forum is for.


I apologize.

Maybe multiclassing or Skill Focus would have been a better answer.


Except, multiclassing and skill focus don't change anything here.


This isn't a combat feat.
So multi classing to get a feat won't work as far as I know. Fighter feats are only combat right? usually any bonus feat are only combat?

Its probably just a weird random artifact I guess


Not all bonus feats are combat feats. Most are actually a list of selected feats. Here and there you will find bonus feats that allow any feat. I'm not aware of one that would be part of any practical build (Rogue 10 for instance), but it doesn't mean it isn't out there.
Maybe there was a planned prestige class or archetype that never actually made it to the table.
It could also be because the designer of that feat likes round numbers! we'll never know I guess.


Not having a skill as a class skill does not prevent you from putting a skill rank into it. You simply do not gain the +3 class skill bonus until you take a class that has the skill as a class skill. Also the prerequisites only count actual skill ranks. Things like skill focus do not add ranks; they give you a bonus to the skill. I could have spent 9 skill points and due to feats, race etc. Have a +20 in the skill, but that does not allow me to take a feat that requires 10 ranks. This also means if I have a penalty to the skill due to stats, race etc. I can still take the feat as long as I spent the required amount of points.


Cavall wrote:

And he's right it's only way to get it is usually retraining, which may not be allowed. That's bothersome.

For the OP, allow retraining.

At the risk of turning this into an advice forum question...why?

Let's start by distinguishing between retaining and rebuilding.

A. Retraining uses Paizo's rules here. It allows you to...

- Retraining ability score increases one at a time
- Change archetypes (longer per alternate feature)
- Change a class feature to another "you could otherwise qualify for at that point in your level advancement." (that part is really important)
- Change a class level
- Change a feat to another that you currently qualify for, even if this would not be a legal build starting at level 1
- Increase hit points up to maximum
- Learn a new language above and beyond the normal maximum
- Change racial trait
- Change a few skill ranks at a time
- Retain a spell known

B. Rebuilding is the ability to just adjust your character per GM approval (aka, don't remake your character to specialize against whatever the party is currently facing -- so far I've approved every rebuild). Aka, you can rebuild your character from the ground up, essentially. This allows to you...

- Change every ability score increase if you wish
- Adjust your level 1 stats if you wish
- Swap archetypes
- Swap a class feature to one that was legal at the time
- Swap levels
- Swap a feat to one that was legal at the time
- No effect on hit points (players already get maximum hit points)
- No effect on languages except being able to change them
- Swap racial traits
- Swap all of your skills if you really wanted
- Swap out a bunch of spells if they're not working as you hoped

Retraining costs time and gold. Rebuilding is free and instant (though not in the middle of combat).

Now, as far as I can tell, there are only three ways where retraining isn't flat out worse than rebuilding...

1. Rebuilding doesn't allow you to learn extra languages
2. Rebuilding has no benefit for hit points...but they're already maximized
3. Rebuilding feats follows the same rules as rebuilding class features...unlike retraining.

And the third point bothers me most -- why can you give up a low power level 3 feat to get a high power level 15 feat while you cannot give up a low power level 4 rage power to get a high power level 16 rage power (or rogue talent, or magus arcana, or whatever)?

For the record, I think the way the class features handles it is correct...hence why that's how I treat both feats and class features during rebuilds.

But the player is arguing that the existence of this feat proves that retraining is intended because otherwise there's no way to get the feat at level 10 when you can qualify for it.

Of course, there's not a level 11+ Skald sitting around nearby so this would require the Skald to spend his own gold (fine, it's his gold) and hold up the party for 10 days...in a reasonably time sensitive campaign. Or he could take time to search one out which would then likely take just as long. All to get a character that wouldn't be legal if built again from level 1. And all solely because it requires Perform 10 rather than 11.


There is a 3rd option, which is controversial and that is if you allow characters to "save" feats. It's like rebuilding, except you're basically doing it pre-emptively.

As has been mentioned, most feats the require ranks in skills set the skill requirement at an even number. This has always implied to me that you can "save" a feat and spend it later when you qualify.

Other players disagree with this view and other than the existence of feats like this and the ability to retrain feats, there isn't anything that explicitly states you don't have to spend your feats when you get them.


LordKailas wrote:

There is a 3rd option, which is controversial and that is if you allow characters to "save" feats. It's like rebuilding, except you're basically doing it pre-emptively.

As has been mentioned, most feats the require ranks in skills set the skill requirement at an even number. This has always implied to me that you can "save" a feat and spend it later when you qualify.

Other players disagree with this view and other than the existence of feats like this and the ability to retrain feats, there isn't anything that explicitly states you don't have to spend your feats when you get them.

By RAW it's not legal:

CRB, page 30 wrote:
When adding new levels of an existing class or adding levels of a new class (see Multiclassing, below), make sure to take the following steps in order. (...) Finally, add new skills and feats. For more information on when you gain new feats and ability score increases, see Table 3–1.

The wording "add" doesn't contain the common "you can" respective "you may", and the table is strict too. However, it makes a good houserule in my opinion - if the player wants to pay with getting no feat for an entire level, that's fine.

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