|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Having the ability to play dark or light is the determination of the GM. IMO the Core book should be as neutral and inclusive as possible. To that extent it should avoid rapey implications so as not the be seen as distasteful to those who maybe want to play an all ages game. Once you get that game and you want to turn it into J.R.R. Martin's dark twisted fantasy by all means, but I reckon Paizo should try to avoid imprinting that into a Core rules book by highlighting a race made most often by undesirable circumstances.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
If Pathfinder is a PG-13 Disney/Pixar movie, then I'll abandon ship full stop, because it's clear Pathfinder is a children's game, along the lines of Trouble, Sorry!, Uno, and Monopoly.... why are you letting that game around children?
Okay, make it Chutes and Ladders, the point remains the same.
@ Dale McCoy Jr.: Nope, he'll be the new Jedi class, with force powers that grant mind-affecting abilities, precognitive defenses, and the ability to control a new powerful weapon, the Lightsaber, both physically and telekinetically.
*waves hand* "These aren't the adventurers you're looking for, haha!"
P.S. This probably already exists in Starfinder, so it's not an unrealistic expectation for it to also be present in Pathfinder.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I think it's hilarious to have this much crazy animosity towards characters possibly being the result of non-consensual sex, while it's perfectly okay for those same characters to main and/or kill to get out of just about any situation.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
As for the complaints that folks don't want to lose their Half-Orcs, I reckon a racial feat or something else can go a long way to bring that back. That would emphasize the rarity of their creation while still giving an avenue to their play-ability.
So in other words a feat tax. No thanks.
| 8 people marked this as a favorite. |
I think it's hilarious to have this much crazy animosity towards characters possibly being the result of non-consensual sex, while it's perfectly okay for those same characters to main and/or kill to get out of just about any situation.
Sexual assault is personal to a lot of people (and should be taken more seriously by our society), and while combat is an integral part of fantasy roleplaying, rape isn't.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
I think it's hilarious to have this much crazy animosity towards characters possibly being the result of non-consensual sex, while it's perfectly okay for those same characters to main and/or kill to get out of just about any situation.
Because it's more relevant to real world people, and those who were victims of such atrocities are ones who struggle to cope with their sufferings. There's nobody on who can say "Yeah, I died once, it sucked, I don't want to play a game where dying is possible." Because logically speaking, someone who is dead can't show up and say that they were dead once.
Even with this understanding though, I'd rather keep a game realistic because it kills immersion otherwise, which is also important for telling a story, and when such victims were questioned, details and accuracy were important to piecing together facts that would eventually complete the "story."
In short, people who have had incidents like the above shouldn't involve themselves with games or stories that can contain elements of their tragic past, which can trigger episodes of depression, anxiety, rage, etc. Not only is it unhealthy for them, but also for the other players that do not have personal issues with those situations, as it can be the source of leaving the passion, which in the victim's case, is probably the most prudent course of action.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
@ Dale McCoy Jr.: Nope, he'll be the new Jedi class,
I'm assuming you are pronouncing that [YEH-dI] as opposed to [jed I]. The latter is a copyright violation. ;)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
@ Dale McCoy Jr.: Nope, he'll be the new Jedi class,I'm assuming you are pronouncing that [YEH-dI] as opposed to [jed I]. The latter is a copyright violation. ;)
Sure, but if we say that pronunciation, people would look in the Beastiary for information, thinking it's a monster to kill, not the Core, where the classes are.
Maybe we can call it the Jide?
|
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Horrific torture, murder, and rape do neither in Pathfinder and are in fact written into the setting time upon time.Correct.
If a GM wants to include them, he's not clashing with the setting tone or versimlitude in any way.Correct.
He doesn't have to if that's not the story he wants to tellCorrect.
but if he did it makes sense including it.
Incorrect.
There's no "sense" to or defense to be made for including rape, no justification other than the GM wanting to include it.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I will say that I have never in my life consumed a piece of entertainment and thought "You know what this needs? More sexual violence and torture." I have on the other hand determined something needed "more Kung Fu fights" from time to time, however. So I don't think those two categories are even remotely interchangeable. Since fake violence can be fun(I hear Wrestlemania went well this year), but fake torture is just upsetting.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
But we have to acknolewdge the fact that this is a medieval game. Torture (and the true horrific ones), rape, slavery, murder makes sense in it. We don't have to go full RR Martin on it but at least in the canon they make sense.1) Pathfinder/Golarion is not a "medieval" game/system.
2) The hell we do.
3) Are you seriously saying we have to include all that because it makes "sense" to you to do so?
This is a setting where almost all countries inspiration goes from the prehistoric to the time of the French Revolution. So from this huge range of time we got, in real history, murder rape slavery pillage torture burning spike and the like. I was referring to the genre of medieval fantasy just like the one we can find in FR or Tolkien world. Yes the range of time is large but we are still far from a setting like Ebberron.
So yes in the canon like the book says by the way, rape by orcs make sense such as slavery by Cheliax or hard physical torture and punishment by Hellknigths. But like I said you do whatever you want in your game, just know the fact that your universe is probably more nice than the canon one. Which is fine.
I find that lacking real and terrifying beihavior tends to break immersion because the bad guys can only be bad guys by being bad. Like cruel, crazy, sociopath and the like. But my first role playing games was Warhammer Fantasy and my first fantasy book the trilogy of the Drow by Salvatore so I guess it seems normal to me to have hard behavior in my world. But hey you do what you want of course, that was just my opinion.
I really think that I don’t use the verb “to have” well because it has been a few times already when i meant something like “we should considerate the fact that...” and people understood “we must”.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'm not sure how much of this is even an argument against it being in the game, or just that it shouldn't be described as a requirement for realism or accuracy or anything. And for the record, I agree with that latter part. Because it's not "Paizo put this in an AP once, and besides that it's realistically medieval, so it's badwrongfun not to have it in games". If you wanna have it that way, cool for you. If you wanna tone it down, cool for you. Heck, if you want to amp up the dark stuff and your players are on board with that, cool for you.
But it's a choice and should be acknowledged as a choice. Even if it's a little more awkward because no decent person wants to be saying "I like my games extra rapey", taking responsibility for what you think the game should be and talking about it as a choice helps with self-awareness, and leads to less accidental negative-soundingness toward people who don't agree.
(for what it's worth, I'm one of those people in favor of keeping the dark aspects. I don't particularly like Game of Thrones-esque "crapsack world with scummy antiheroes vs horrific monsters of people" gritty fantasy so much as Lord of the Rings's tone of... the heroes are about as noble and purehearted as you can get, but still struggle with temptation and sanity and resolve because things are just that bad and against the odds. Accordingly, I like my squicky badstuff in moderate and not-too-overt amounts.)
As for the OP, frankly the only people who play proper half-orcs are the people who would be playing a full-blooded orc if given the option so I would fully support half-orcs being replaced with orcs as a core race.
Also, I'm... let's just say I'm curious why you say this. And what you consider "proper" half-orcs.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I will say that I have never in my life consumed a piece of entertainment and thought "You know what this needs? More sexual violence and torture."
This.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
And what you consider "proper" half-orcs.
Ya know, with top hats, monocles, white gloves, and coat tails. (And the proper female equivalent thereof, of course.)
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Horrific torture, murder, and rape do neither in Pathfinder and are in fact written into the setting time upon time.Correct.If a GM wants to include them, he's not clashing with the setting tone or versimlitude in any way.Correct.He doesn't have to if that's not the story he wants to tellCorrect.but if he did it makes sense including it.Incorrect.
There's no "sense" to or defense to be made for including rape, no justification other than the GM wanting to include it.
How about filling story plot holes?
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
What plot holes can you possibly fill with sexual violence and torture that you couldn't fill with something else?
Like I assiduously avoid torture in my games with the logic that "smart people know that torture doesn't work, it just gets the target to say whatever they think you want them to say so that it stops." So if I need the villain to get some piece of information from a captive, rather than torture they'll just use magic, which is far more reliable and less messy.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
What plot holes can you possibly fill with sexual violence and torture that you couldn't fill with something else?
Like I assiduously avoid torture in my games with the logic that "smart people know that torture doesn't work, it just gets the target to say whatever they think you want them to say so that it stops." So if I need the villain to get some piece of information from a captive, rather than torture they'll just use magic, which is far more reliable and less messy.
How about a princess that gets kidnapped by orcs, gets rescued, and some time later a half-orc with resemblance to the princess is seen amidst the kingdom? Should I just say some magical Stork Outsider showed up and pawned an orphan off to her to take care of? It might be more kid-friendly, but even for Pathfinder and Golarion, that makes zero sense plotwise. (P.S. the Super Mario franchise basically did this with Bowser Jr., inadvertently or not, so it's not something that's randomly created, there is precedent for it.)
Villains simply using magic to know what they need to know also means they probably don't need captives either, so now you've defeated the whole purpose of a story involving capturing a person of interest. Also, apparently every BBEG is a spellcaster, which means Fighters can't be Evil, because then they'd be the BBGG, which isn't the focus unless you're already evil, in which case issues like this one are largely staple to begin with, and no moral quandaries exist.
Also, Paizo has APs and other published material with these elements factored in. Why aren't you outside their office with torches and pitchforks already?
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
How about a princess that gets kidnapped by orcs, gets rescued, and some time later a half-orc with resemblance to the princess is seen amidst the kingdom? Should I just say some magical Stork Outsider showed up and pawned an orphan off to her to take care of? It might be more kid-friendly, but even for Pathfinder and Golarion, that makes zero sense plotwise. (P.S. the Super Mario franchise basically did this with Bowser Jr., inadvertently or not, so it's not something that's randomly created, there is precedent for it.)What plot holes can you possibly fill with sexual violence and torture that you couldn't fill with something else?
Like I assiduously avoid torture in my games with the logic that "smart people know that torture doesn't work, it just gets the target to say whatever they think you want them to say so that it stops." So if I need the villain to get some piece of information from a captive, rather than torture they'll just use magic, which is far more reliable and less messy.
That's not a plot hole that's the whole plot you've set forth.
But even then: One orc has a change of heart and frees the princess and they escape, while evading the other orcs over [insert period of time] they fall in love, but the orc is killed, either by the pursing orcs or by knights from the princess's kingdom.
Same plot set forth.
ORRRRRRR the orcs are mercenaries regularly employed by the kingdom and the Princess is friends with them and she is regularly "kidnapped" by them so she can have a break from dealing with aristocrats all the time. Some times orgies happen, fun is had by all.
Same plot set forth.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
What plot holes can you possibly fill with sexual violence and torture that you couldn't fill with something else?
Like I assiduously avoid torture in my games with the logic that "smart people know that torture doesn't work, it just gets the target to say whatever they think you want them to say so that it stops." So if I need the villain to get some piece of information from a captive, rather than torture they'll just use magic, which is far more reliable and less messy.
How about a princess that gets kidnapped by orcs, gets rescued, and some time later a half-orc with resemblance to the princess is seen amidst the kingdom? Should I just say some magical Stork Outsider showed up and pawned an orphan off to her to take care of? It might be more kid-friendly, but even for Pathfinder and Golarion, that makes zero sense plotwise. (P.S. the Super Mario franchise basically did this with Bowser Jr., inadvertently or not, so it's not something that's randomly created, there is precedent for it.)
Villains simply using magic to know what they need to know also means they probably don't need captives either, so now you've defeated the whole purpose of a story involving capturing a person of interest. Also, apparently every BBEG is a spellcaster, which means Fighters can't be Evil, because then they'd be the BBGG, which isn't the focus unless you're already evil, in which case issues like this one are largely staple to begin with, and no moral quandaries exist.
Also, Paizo has APs and other published material with these elements factored in. Why aren't you outside their office with torches and pitchforks already?
Just a side note, Peach definitely wasn't Bowser Jr.'s mom. That's what Bowser originally told him, but later admitted it was a lie.
That said, I'm not for removing all mentions of sexual violence. It happens, and there's no point in denying that. But maybe it shouldn't be such a big part of a Core race. It's pushy, and it makes it hard for people who don't want to go into those storylines to just ignore it. And there are a few Paizo books that overly emphasize it or handle it in weird ways (I'm looking at you, Battle of Bloodmarch Hill).
Sexual violence can exist in the world without us pseudo-glorifying it by saying "look at this race, see how evil they are!"
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I mean, if someone has a kid, how hard is it to make it the product of a consensual union?
I'm way more interested in an unlikely love story than sexual violence, just in terms of what stories I want to explore. So why not explore the hidden depths of "dad" in this story? Maybe he's a poet with a deep abiding respect for nature, and an excellent chef and this was what they bonded over. Orcs are better as characters (which is the premise of this thread) than "natural forces which perpetrate atrocity".
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Why would you even include kidnapped princess orcish bastard in a game that is meant to avoid sexual violence?
Just skip it altogether and that's all.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Just skip it altogether and that's all.
Indeed, all sorts of awful stuff can be happening in the world of the game, but that doesn't mean we have to focus on it- tell stories about the stuff your group finds fun or interesting instead.
Like in my homebrew orcs became "civilized" thousands of years ago, and while they aren't urbane by the standards of other peoples (heated philosophical arguments at Orc universities will sometimes devolve into formalized wrestling matches, not to decide who is right but to blow off steam and build camaraderie) they place a high social value in free will and by extension consent- in war it is acceptable to kill the enemy soldier since they understood that the possibility of death was part of the job when they signed up (though orcs understand socioeconomic factors will force people into these jobs), and it's definitely justifiable and indeed desirable to kill the monarch who started the war, but one leaves peasants and innocent bystanders alone.
But why would the CE Demon Lord of envy and assassin bringing babies in Mario universe?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
But why would the CE Demon Lord of envy and assassin bringing babies in Mario universe?
Ha, Shax does look like a Stork. He giveth and taketh away I suppose.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
How about a princess that gets kidnapped by orcs, gets rescued, and some time later a half-orc with resemblance to the princess is seen amidst the kingdom? Should I just say some magical Stork Outsider showed up and pawned an orphan off to her to take care of? It might be more kid-friendly, but even for Pathfinder and Golarion, that makes zero sense plotwise. (P.S. the Super Mario franchise basically did this with Bowser Jr., inadvertently or not, so it's not something that's randomly created, there is precedent for it.)What plot holes can you possibly fill with sexual violence and torture that you couldn't fill with something else?
Like I assiduously avoid torture in my games with the logic that "smart people know that torture doesn't work, it just gets the target to say whatever they think you want them to say so that it stops." So if I need the villain to get some piece of information from a captive, rather than torture they'll just use magic, which is far more reliable and less messy.
That's not a plot hole that's the whole plot you've set forth.
But even then: One orc has a change of heart and frees the princess and they escape, while evading the other orcs over [insert period of time] they fall in love, but the orc is killed, either by the pursing orcs or by knights from the princess's kingdom.
Same plot set forth.
ORRRRRRR the orcs are mercenaries regularly employed by the kingdom and the Princess is friends with them and she is regularly "kidnapped" by them so she can have a break from dealing with aristocrats all the time. Some times orgies happen, fun is had by all.
Same plot set forth.
The plot hole in question is the orcish child with a striking resemblance to the princess showing up after the rescuing from the PCs, in case I didn't make it obvious enough. I just had to have some basic exposition to paint a picture instead of just throw a random thing out there. The point is that it can make for a more compelling story, due to the gravity of the situation in general, and also gives yet another plot hook to work with. The two you described are as open-and-closed an adventure can be, and in fact has no reason to involve the PCs, who are the main stars of the show.
@ Malachandra: I'm not really familiar with the Mario storyline, I simply extrapolated basic genetics with introduced characters to come to an estimated conclusion. But yes, I agree with your opinion otherwise.
@ PossibleCabbage: I think it more interesting to have a character like a princess be put in a moral quandary and give them more depth than simply being a macguffin the PCs have to save. What would that character do in a situation; would they request their father, the King, to request magical removal of the offspring? Or might she develop a connection and foster a child with the capabilities of becoming something better than both humans and orcs? It's a matter of personal opinion at this point.
@ kyrt-rider: This is good to know, but if we are playing Golarion Pathfinder, it's not exactly a great plot device to implement to have the story come together.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Yeah, as much as I think this kind of stuff adds to quite a few of the stories in the setting, I really don't see it as necessary or belonging in everything. Heck, if it was in every story it would damn well get old fast.
But those same topics also added a lot to the experience in campaigns - it felt really satisfying when my Half-Orc (funnily enough!) Bloodrager got to smash nearly everything up in Broken Chains, for example.
Admittedly most of my half-orcs were from loving relationships and descendants of other half orcs/other half-humans, so thinking about it, the nicer options should at least be presented in core, rather than the extra stuff it started showing up in.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I don't get why it's ok to say that orcs slaughter or enslave entire villages, but not that they rape people.
Raping is horrible, but is killing better?
Guarantee you, out of your entire current gaming group, that none of them have personally been murdered and most of them will not have strong traumatic memories of being close to it.
Don't ask the members of your gaming group how many of them have been raped. Not only will they not like the question, but chances are very good you will not like the answer.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
And what you consider "proper" half-orcs.Ya know, with top hats, monocles, white gloves, and coat tails. (And the proper female equivalent thereof, of course.)
This is my other favorite half-orc PC: the Duchess' son, educated in all the finest schools, adventuring to make his fortune because his younger, legitimate, human half-brother was going to inherit his grandfather's lands.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Don't ask the members of your gaming group how many of them have been raped. Not only will they not like the question, but chances are very good you will not like the answer.
But before campaign GM can just ask player are there any sensitive aspects they would like to ommit in game.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
But before campaign GM can just ask player are there any sensitive aspects they would like to ommit in game.Don't ask the members of your gaming group how many of them have been raped. Not only will they not like the question, but chances are very good you will not like the answer.
One problem: The subject may be so sensitive that the affected person won't bring it up, especially if past experience in gaming makes it seem unlikely that it will come up anyway.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
For dealing with sensitive material in games, I recommend John Stavropolous's X-card System- it works and it's easy to bolt on to anything.
Just don't get indignant when one of your players denies your ability to include really graphic torture or something, FFS.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Why would you even include kidnapped princess orcish bastard in a game that is meant to avoid sexual violence?
Just skip it altogether and that's all.
If it's meant to be avoided, then having official published adventure paths with some of those elements in place as part of a story fails to fulfill that desire.
Which isn't to say that it should be endorsed or acceptable, merely that it's just as valid a story element to implement as any other story element, to make a story more compelling to read and understand.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
But before campaign GM can just ask player are there any sensitive aspects they would like to ommit in game.Don't ask the members of your gaming group how many of them have been raped. Not only will they not like the question, but chances are very good you will not like the answer.
One problem: The subject may be so sensitive that the affected person won't bring it up, especially if past experience in gaming makes it seem unlikely that it will come up anyway.
I'd then question why you would play a game that risks including sensitive material in the first place if a player in your group might be triggered to the point of leaving your group over it. In other words, badwrongfun GMing at its finest.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Do people's GMs not regularly rework parts of printed adventures to make them more interesting, appropriate to the characters, more relevant to the players, etc.?
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Do people's GMs not regularly rework parts of printed adventures to make them more interesting, appropriate to the characters, more relevant to the players, etc.?
They probably do.
But that doesn't mean the GM is infallible and doesn't instead make a big mistake.
Others are probably too lazy/busy to do so, and it's those people who are most at risk from having outbursts at their table.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
One problem: The subject may be so sensitive that the affected person won't bring it up, especially if past experience in gaming makes it seem unlikely that it will come up anyway.But before campaign GM can just ask player are there any sensitive aspects they would like to ommit in game.Don't ask the members of your gaming group how many of them have been raped. Not only will they not like the question, but chances are very good you will not like the answer.
Alternatively, a player could squick out the GM by describing something that neither of them would have wanted to bring up otherwise.
Alternatively, a player could squick out the GM by describing something that neither of them would have wanted to bring up otherwise.
Had a player once who used to do this to me all the time. I cut him loose when I realized he was doing it on purpose.
Later asked one of our mutual friends what was wrong with him, and he told me that he figured that the problem player felt I was a better DM, and this was how he expressed his jealousy.
Which was a shame, because I thought he was a great DM himself when he wasn't being a f&++ing creep.
Do people's GMs not regularly rework parts of printed adventures to make them more interesting, appropriate to the characters, more relevant to the players, etc.?
Sometimes, but more likely I'd rather discuss things on session -1, to make chance for them to choose their hooks.
For instance with Sandpoint I'd say them, they should have some bounds to place, or region, or cause... and work this out. I'm not going add new NPC's because if something - Sandpoint is too much diverse in name of being first town of Golarion and having to have ALL CORE ELEMENTS.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
The medieval world (the stereotypes and flavor of which Pathfinder and other fantasy games are based on) was a rough place where bad things happened. It makes sense to include not so pleasant things and situations in your pseudo-medieval game. But just because you include something awful in your game does not mean you are condoning it. I once had my players track down a serial killer. Does that mean I think murder is okay? Of course not! But if nothing bad ever happened in these fantasy worlds, there would be no need for adventurers, and where would our game be then? What people need to remember is that how much and what nature of unpleasantness occurs 'on screen' and how much you focus on it is completely up to your gaming group. Also, there doesn't have to be just one way a half-orc is born. There are as many ways for a half-orc to be made as there are people playing half-orcs, and probably even more to handle the nature of it in game.
You could delve deeply into a half-orc pc or npc's cliche abusive home life, trying to find out where his mother's resentment and mistreatment of him stemmed from as part of an attempt to heal the relationship between them if that's your group's cup of tea. Or you could just gloss over it with a quick "he was mistreated and disliked by his human family members because of his orc father" at the character's introduction. You could simply have it be implied and the half-orc be touchy about having mentioned. You could completely ignore it if such things are too intense or upsetting for members of your group. Or you could go the sunshine and flowers route and have a loving union between a human and orc that produced lots of happy little mixed-species kids who are loved by both their parents. There are a lot of ways to handle this issue without having it completely stripped from the lore and cannon of the game.
The main thing, regardless of where you stand on this particular issue, is not to upset or disturb your players. We play the game to have fun, not to cause emotional trauma.