| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
In some ways, the >10< system multiplies the effect of bonuses by ~3x. You are more likely to hit, more likely to crit, and less likely to fumble. Is that going to make encounter design more challenging? In PF1, if you gave a monster an extra +2 to-hit it wouldn't really alter the fight all that much. But in PF2 that +2 could have a major impact (especially if the enemy has riders on a crit, or if you have PCs who have built around taking advantage of fumbles.) Likewise, a -2 to-hit could turn an encounter from challenging to easy. That's just the hypothetical case of giving a monster an arbitrary +2/-2, but more practically, is this going to make selecting a level-appropriate monster from the Bestiary more challenging?
CR is already notoriously unreliable as a metric to judge how difficult a fight will be. You see countless stories of people saying "I gave my party an APL+3/+4 encounter and they didn't even break a sweat." So is the new crit/fumble system going to make this more difficult - you give them a CR8 encounter and they stomp all over it, then give them a CR10 encounter and it's a TPK?
Is the "level-appropriate window" between cakewalk and TPK going to shrink? If so, can this be mitigated? Are the new Death and Dying rules going to be enough to prevent TPKs, or will it become a precarious balancing act for GMs everywhere?
This is a concern for sure, however, they are making new monster rules (to my chagrin) so maybe this is being built into the new guidelines?
In some ways, the >10< system multiplies the effect of bonuses by ~3x. You are more likely to hit, more likely to crit, and less likely to fumble. Is that going to make encounter design more challenging? In PF1, if you gave a monster an extra +2 to-hit it wouldn't really alter the fight all that much. But in PF2 that +2 could have a major impact (especially if the enemy has riders on a crit, or if you have PCs who have built around taking advantage of fumbles.) Likewise, a -2 to-hit could turn an encounter from challenging to easy. That's just the hypothetical case of giving a monster an arbitrary +2/-2, but more practically, is this going to make selecting a level-appropriate monster from the Bestiary more challenging?
CR is already notoriously unreliable as a metric to judge how difficult a fight will be. You see countless stories of people saying "I gave my party an APL+3/+4 encounter and they didn't even break a sweat." So is the new crit/fumble system going to make this more difficult - you give them a CR8 encounter and they stomp all over it, then give them a CR10 encounter and it's a TPK?
Is the "level-appropriate window" between cakewalk and TPK going to shrink? If so, can this be mitigated? Are the new Death and Dying rules going to be enough to prevent TPKs, or will it become a precarious balancing act for GMs everywhere?
The curve of average damage as your necessary roll "to hit" decreases doesn't look too bad, though it scales faster than in PF1 when you start hitting on less than a 10. Even in the steepest part of the damage curve though (where you hit on a 10 or less, and thus are adding both hit and crit %), the average damage per attack goes up by around 20% of attack damage when you increase attack by +2. I haven't run specific numbers on it, but it seems unlikely that this alone would turn an encounter from "easy" to "lethal."
Players are getting additional reactions that (1) reduce incoming damage (Shield Block), and (2) trigger on critical hits. How much they help against a higher CR opponent will be determined by the exact abilities, and the numbers, which we don't have yet.
Also, the new death and dying mechanic makes it less likely to go from "alive" to "dead" in one hit, which became increasingly common at high levels as enemy damage scaled much faster than your Con score. That should be a net boost to survivability.
Finally, many battles in PF1 are determined not by HP damage, but by statuses and battlefield control. We still don't know what Paizo is doing with the spell system for PF2, but I to really comment on how much an increased CR increases lethality, it has to be accounted for.
Overall, it looks like it's something they've considered, and the math doesn't look too bad to me. The playtest will give a better insight, and its definitely something to keep an eye on.
The CR system being unreliable is what I imagine this will help solve. CR +3 is no longer likely to be a cakewalk because crits and saves now favor the enemy. CR +0 or CR +1 can now be expected to fall within certain boundaries. If you want to use an out-of-CR monster, you’ll have better adjustment instructions.
Except shadows. Those seem like they’re a bundle of TPK.
| 11 people marked this as a favorite. |
It won't narrow the window from what was suggested in PF1 for encounter-building (if anything, it's amazing for making those big boss enemies an actually impactful encounter), but it will definitely narrow the window if your group (like mine) would often take on something like 4 CR 20s, a CR 19, 2 CR 17s, and 10 CR 9 support bards as the final encounter for a level 16 party (the actual final encounter I used for my Jade Regent game). This was a nearly CR 25 fight, 6 CRs higher than the maximum suggested epic fight of CR=APL+3, and that's not going to be a winnable fight any more.
It won't narrow the window from what was suggested in PF1 for encounter-building (if anything, it's amazing for making those big boss enemies an actually impactful encounter), but it will definitely narrow the window if your group (like mine) would often take on something like 4 CR 20s, a CR 19, 2 CR 17s, and 10 CR 9 support bards as the final encounter for a level 16 party (the actual final encounter I used for my Jade Regent game). This was a nearly CR 25 fight, 6 CRs higher than the maximum suggested epic fight of CR=APL+3, and that's not going to be a winnable fight any more.
How did you even manage that? Seems intense from the DMs side of the table with the sheer number of likely complex monsters.
I do like the idea of being able to absolutely crush lower CR enemies with near guaranteed crits and being similarly threatened by higher CR foes. I think I'd personally prefer the larger threat window from a more narrow accuracy system, but I understand the power range and fantasy the playtest system allows.
I'm interested to see how much you would break by removing level components from different modifiers as a house rule. Assuming similar proficiency rules will apply to armor and AC, it should most even out and it would give more of a bounded accuracy feel to PF2.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
| 14 people marked this as a favorite. |
It won't narrow the window from what was suggested in PF1 for encounter-building (if anything, it's amazing for making those big boss enemies an actually impactful encounter), but it will definitely narrow the window if your group (like mine) would often take on something like 4 CR 20s, a CR 19, 2 CR 17s, and 10 CR 9 support bards as the final encounter for a level 16 party (the actual final encounter I used for my Jade Regent game). This was a nearly CR 25 fight, 6 CRs higher than the maximum suggested epic fight of CR=APL+3, and that's not going to be a winnable fight any more.How did you even manage that? Seems intense from the DMs side of the table with the sheer number of likely complex monsters.
I do like the idea of being able to absolutely crush lower CR enemies with near guaranteed crits and being similarly threatened by higher CR foes. I think I'd personally prefer the larger threat window from a more narrow accuracy system, but I understand the power range and fantasy the playtest system allows.
I'm interested to see how much you would break by removing level components from different modifiers as a house rule. Assuming similar proficiency rules will apply to armor and AC, it should most even out and it would give more of a bounded accuracy feel to PF2.
The 20s were also mythic with weird unique abilities, and after everything was dead, one of them became a vortex that sucked in the souls of the others and became a CR 23 unique void yai with disembodied hands that had their own actions and could be attacked separately, for a true JRPG final boss feel.
|
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
The 20s were also mythic with weird unique abilities, and after everything was dead, one of them became a vortex that sucked in the souls of the others and became a CR 23 unique void yai with disembodied hands that had their own actions and could be attacked separately, for a true JRPG final boss feel.It won't narrow the window from what was suggested in PF1 for encounter-building (if anything, it's amazing for making those big boss enemies an actually impactful encounter), but it will definitely narrow the window if your group (like mine) would often take on something like 4 CR 20s, a CR 19, 2 CR 17s, and 10 CR 9 support bards as the final encounter for a level 16 party (the actual final encounter I used for my Jade Regent game). This was a nearly CR 25 fight, 6 CRs higher than the maximum suggested epic fight of CR=APL+3, and that's not going to be a winnable fight any more.How did you even manage that? Seems intense from the DMs side of the table with the sheer number of likely complex monsters.
I do like the idea of being able to absolutely crush lower CR enemies with near guaranteed crits and being similarly threatened by higher CR foes. I think I'd personally prefer the larger threat window from a more narrow accuracy system, but I understand the power range and fantasy the playtest system allows.
I'm interested to see how much you would break by removing level components from different modifiers as a house rule. Assuming similar proficiency rules will apply to armor and AC, it should most even out and it would give more of a bounded accuracy feel to PF2.
So, your answer to the question: "How did you manage an encounter that complex?" is basically: "Hold my beer, it was even more complex than that..."
I love you guys. I really dream of playing in one of your games one day! xD| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
The 20s were also mythic with weird unique abilities, and after everything was dead, one of them became a vortex that sucked in the souls of the others and became a CR 23 unique void yai with disembodied hands that had their own actions and could be attacked separately, for a true JRPG final boss feel.It won't narrow the window from what was suggested in PF1 for encounter-building (if anything, it's amazing for making those big boss enemies an actually impactful encounter), but it will definitely narrow the window if your group (like mine) would often take on something like 4 CR 20s, a CR 19, 2 CR 17s, and 10 CR 9 support bards as the final encounter for a level 16 party (the actual final encounter I used for my Jade Regent game). This was a nearly CR 25 fight, 6 CRs higher than the maximum suggested epic fight of CR=APL+3, and that's not going to be a winnable fight any more.How did you even manage that? Seems intense from the DMs side of the table with the sheer number of likely complex monsters.
I do like the idea of being able to absolutely crush lower CR enemies with near guaranteed crits and being similarly threatened by higher CR foes. I think I'd personally prefer the larger threat window from a more narrow accuracy system, but I understand the power range and fantasy the playtest system allows.
I'm interested to see how much you would break by removing level components from different modifiers as a house rule. Assuming similar proficiency rules will apply to armor and AC, it should most even out and it would give more of a bounded accuracy feel to PF2.
So, your answer to the question: "How did you manage an encounter that complex?" is basically: "Hold my beer, it was even more complex than that..."
I love you guys. I really dream of playing in one of your games one day! xD
Hehe. To be fair, some of those combatants didn't get to act because the PCs took them out before their initiative. This includes the bards (good for the PCs, as the bards were all planning to use heroic finale to give the most dangerous enemies 10 extra standard actions).
|
|
[...]Hehe. To be fair, some of those combatants didn't get to act because the PCs took them out before their initiative. This includes the bards (good for the PCs, as the bards were all planning to use heroic finale to give the most dangerous enemies 10 extra standard actions).
Haha! I would have done the same thing. Pesky choirs... Pretty sure Sephiroth would've been only half as bad-ass if he didn't have a choir chanting his name.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I just realized that it will create a "minion" effect where against much lower level enemies most, if not all, attacks are going to be critical hits.
The 20s were also mythic with weird unique abilities, and after everything was dead, one of them became a vortex that sucked in the souls of the others and became a CR 23 unique void yai with disembodied hands that had their own actions and could be attacked separately, for a true JRPG final boss feel.It won't narrow the window from what was suggested in PF1 for encounter-building (if anything, it's amazing for making those big boss enemies an actually impactful encounter), but it will definitely narrow the window if your group (like mine) would often take on something like 4 CR 20s, a CR 19, 2 CR 17s, and 10 CR 9 support bards as the final encounter for a level 16 party (the actual final encounter I used for my Jade Regent game). This was a nearly CR 25 fight, 6 CRs higher than the maximum suggested epic fight of CR=APL+3, and that's not going to be a winnable fight any more.How did you even manage that? Seems intense from the DMs side of the table with the sheer number of likely complex monsters.
I do like the idea of being able to absolutely crush lower CR enemies with near guaranteed crits and being similarly threatened by higher CR foes. I think I'd personally prefer the larger threat window from a more narrow accuracy system, but I understand the power range and fantasy the playtest system allows.
I'm interested to see how much you would break by removing level components from different modifiers as a house rule. Assuming similar proficiency rules will apply to armor and AC, it should most even out and it would give more of a bounded accuracy feel to PF2.
I mean, of course. All of this really goes without saying. </s>
But seriously, that sounds epic. I'm looking forward to see how PF2 can support those feelings of epic fights against legendary creatures, and I see the increased chance of critical hits/critical save failures as a step in that direction.
Tighter CR windows really aids in other ways. BBEG solo fights become more doable, especially with the >10< mechanic altering save-or-else effects and martial debuffs only bringing to BBEG down to manageable rather than hosed.
Since XP per level is a flat system, that means rewards will be tied to CR vs. APL to determine rewards. But how does one determine the CR of minions nowadays? I think that will be key.
I look forward to having minions that can often hit, but seldom crit, while they get usually hit and often crit. That sounds dynamic and like minions could actually feel threatening and require some tactics so they can't swarm the party. Good stuff.
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
Haha! I would have done the same thing. Pesky choirs... Pretty sure Sephiroth would've been only half as bad-ass if he didn't have a choir chanting his name.[...]Hehe. To be fair, some of those combatants didn't get to act because the PCs took them out before their initiative. This includes the bards (good for the PCs, as the bards were all planning to use heroic finale to give the most dangerous enemies 10 extra standard actions).
One thing I'm looking forward to with PF2, funny enough, is martial battles at higher levels kinda looking like some of the fights in Advent Children.
|
|
One thing I'm looking forward to with PF2, funny enough, is martial battles at higher levels kinda looking like some of the fights in Advent Children.Haha! I would have done the same thing. Pesky choirs... Pretty sure Sephiroth would've been only half as bad-ass if he didn't have a choir chanting his name.[...]Hehe. To be fair, some of those combatants didn't get to act because the PCs took them out before their initiative. This includes the bards (good for the PCs, as the bards were all planning to use heroic finale to give the most dangerous enemies 10 extra standard actions).
Usually, there are TTRPGs where you feel like nood/realistic humans the whole game, and others you feel like super/"kungfu movies" heroes the whole game... Will be special to have a game you start as clumsy amateurs and end up awesome like Hercules/Jason/etc. xD
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
One thing I'm looking forward to with PF2, funny enough, is martial battles at higher levels kinda looking like some of the fights in Advent Children.Haha! I would have done the same thing. Pesky choirs... Pretty sure Sephiroth would've been only half as bad-ass if he didn't have a choir chanting his name.[...]Hehe. To be fair, some of those combatants didn't get to act because the PCs took them out before their initiative. This includes the bards (good for the PCs, as the bards were all planning to use heroic finale to give the most dangerous enemies 10 extra standard actions).
Oh God, I'm old. I initially read that as "All My Children", and picturing Susan Lucci in full armor trying to scratch the Barbarian's eyes out! I gotta get away from these boards for awhile.
I really love the Bard Choir thing as a player, but wouldn't want to see it happen too often, or it gets tired. Our GM in Curse of the Crimson Throne (Greywulfe shout-out!) gave the final boss a chorus of satirist bards - really made for an epic boss battle.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Usually, there are TTRPGs where you feel like nood/realistic humans the whole game, and others you feel like super/"kungfu movies" heroes the whole game... Will be special to have a game you start as clumsy amateurs and end up awesome like Hercules/Jason/etc. xDOne thing I'm looking forward to with PF2, funny enough, is martial battles at higher levels kinda looking like some of the fights in Advent Children.Haha! I would have done the same thing. Pesky choirs... Pretty sure Sephiroth would've been only half as bad-ass if he didn't have a choir chanting his name.[...]Hehe. To be fair, some of those combatants didn't get to act because the PCs took them out before their initiative. This includes the bards (good for the PCs, as the bards were all planning to use heroic finale to give the most dangerous enemies 10 extra standard actions).
As it turns out, having a game where you can be awesome like Jason is one of the important directives from our Director of Game Design. I can't imagine why! ;)
|
|
As it turns out, having a game where you can be awesome like Jason is one of the important directives from our Director of Game Design. I can't imagine why! ;)Usually, there are TTRPGs where you feel like nood/realistic humans the whole game, and others you feel like super/"kungfu movies" heroes the whole game... Will be special to have a game you start as clumsy amateurs and end up awesome like Hercules/Jason/etc. xDOne thing I'm looking forward to with PF2, funny enough, is martial battles at higher levels kinda looking like some of the fights in Advent Children.Haha! I would have done the same thing. Pesky choirs... Pretty sure Sephiroth would've been only half as bad-ass if he didn't have a choir chanting his name.[...]Hehe. To be fair, some of those combatants didn't get to act because the PCs took them out before their initiative. This includes the bards (good for the PCs, as the bards were all planning to use heroic finale to give the most dangerous enemies 10 extra standard actions).
*Slow clap*
Good job catching that! :D
|
Can someone link me to the blog about this system? I have a hard time keeping up with the playtest stuff, I don't even know what the ">10< crit system" is.
It's really simple: If you hit AC by 10 or more you crit. Or roll a 20. No confirmation roll, that's just when you crit.
So, if you are attacking someone with AC 15 and roll a 25+ you crit.
| 7 people marked this as a favorite. |
Can someone link me to the blog about this system? I have a hard time keeping up with the playtest stuff, I don't even know what the ">10< crit system" is.
Not just yet. But when we do, I can edit this post and look like some kind of chronomancer/time mage/seer!
Oh God, I'm old. I initially read that as "All My Children", and picturing Susan Lucci in full armor trying to scratch the Barbarian's eyes out! I gotta get away from these boards for awhile.One thing I'm looking forward to with PF2, funny enough, is martial battles at higher levels kinda looking like some of the fights in Advent Children.Haha! I would have done the same thing. Pesky choirs... Pretty sure Sephiroth would've been only half as bad-ass if he didn't have a choir chanting his name.[...]Hehe. To be fair, some of those combatants didn't get to act because the PCs took them out before their initiative. This includes the bards (good for the PCs, as the bards were all planning to use heroic finale to give the most dangerous enemies 10 extra standard actions).
Hm. General HospitalKingdom? One Life to Live (until your Cleric casts True Resurrection)?
Soap opera-style drama in a high fantasy world. Could be fun!
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Can someone link me to the blog about this system? I have a hard time keeping up with the playtest stuff, I don't even know what the ">10< crit system" is.Not just yet. But when we do, I can edit this post and look like some kind of chronomancer/time mage/seer!
It is a post about time travel and predictions, so that means Mark is trying to tell us what the blog post tomorrow will be about >10<! That is the only rational response to his clue!