Understanding Blink

[Thunderfrog]

Hello all, I have a few questions regarding the Blink Spell.

1. Are you invisible or not?

There's several lines of text in the spell that seem to imply you are in fact that and then some.

"An ethereal creature is invisible, incorporeal, and capable of moving in any direction, even up or down. As an incorporeal creature, you can move through solid objects, including living creatures."

Then however, it mentions are you not invisible and people don't suffer loss of dex to AC. But then it ALSO mentions you are ethereal, and not merely invisible.

What a cluster.

2. Can you still manipulate objects?

Since you are incorporeal and all.

3. Can you be grappled?

You don't have a physical body and are immune to all nonmagical attack forms, since the spell specifically states you are incorporeal.

Thanks!

-Me

[Thewms]

Thunderfrog wrote:

Hello all, I have a few questions regarding the Blink Spell.

1. Are you invisible or not?

There's several lines of text in the spell that seem to imply you are in fact that and then some.

"An ethereal creature is invisible, incorporeal, and capable of moving in any direction, even up or down. As an incorporeal creature, you can move through solid objects, including living creatures."

Then however, it mentions are you not invisible and people don't suffer loss of dex to AC. But then it ALSO mentions you are ethereal, and not merely invisible.

What a cluster.

2. Can you still manipulate objects?

Since you are incorporeal and all.

3. Can you be grappled?

You don't have a physical body and are immune to all nonmagical attack forms, since the spell specifically states you are incorporeal.

Thanks!

-Me

1) Yes, but only momentarily and you can't control it. "You "blink" quickly back and forth between the Material Plane and the Ethereal Plane and look as though you're winking in and out of reality at random."

2) It depends on whether you are corporeal/Incorporeal at the moment you try to interact with said object. "Likewise, your own attacks have a 20% miss chance, since you sometimes go ethereal just as you are about to strike.

3) It depends on whether you are corporeal/Incorporeal at the moment the creature tries to grapple you. "Physical attacks against you have a 50% miss chance, and the Blind-Fight feat doesn't help opponents, since you're ethereal and not merely invisible. If the attack is capable of striking ethereal creatures, the miss chance is only 20% (for concealment)."

[blahpers]

The inclusion of the ethereal creature rules is most likely a copypasta error made during the port from 3.5--they're mostly irrelevant given the rest of the text. Ignore them and the spell makes more sense.

1. Not for most purposes. If a creature can see invisible creatures, then it will be able to see you the entire time; otherwise, you wink in and out.
2. If they're objects you're carrying when you cast blink, yes. If not, it's gonna be dicey, as part of the time you're in the Ethereal Plane, unable to manipulate objects on the Material Plane.
3. Yes, subject to the same rules as other attacks against you. There's some debate as to whether a grapple is automatically broken when winking in and out--some believe this is covered by applying the miss chance to the check to maintain the grapple (success means essentially "regrabbing" you when you wink back in), but some disagree.

[Pax Miles]

How does Blink interact with Ghost Touch weapons, or other effects that exist simotaneously on both the material and ethereal plane?

[blahpers]

Ghost touch weapons can strike incorporeal foes, not ethereal ones. They're different conditions.

A hypothetical ethereal touch weapon combined with see invisibility would work fine against a blinking foe, per this text:

Blink wrote:

Physical attacks against you have a 50% miss chance, and the Blind-Fight feat doesn't help opponents, since you're ethereal and not merely invisible. If the attack is capable of striking ethereal creatures, the miss chance is only 20% (for concealment).

If the attacker can see invisible creatures, the miss chance is also only 20%. (For an attacker who can both see and strike ethereal creatures, there is no miss chance.) Likewise, your own attacks have a 20% miss chance, since you sometimes go ethereal just as you are about to strike.

[Azothath]

Thunderfrog, the Blink spell and Ethereal Plane have some history to them. Anyway... the interplanar jumping is what has you confused. You can read up on the ethereal plane and the spell ethereal jaunt and it will help out.
Blink talks about the two states you are in from the Prime Material observers point of view, and the targets view (as he'll be ethereal for a bit). Force effects and See Invisibility (as they can see creatures on the ethereal plane) are mentioned as they are common interactions.

1) when the target is on the ethereal plane he is invisible (condition) from the prime material plane. The effect is similar to the invisibility spell.

2) yes, yes, and no but possible with magic. lol. When the target is material he can manipulate items on the material plane, and when ethereal he can manipulate items on the ethereal plane. However, inter-planar physical manipulation between the two requires magic in some form.

3) GM inter-planar interaction interpretation yielding somewhere between 'circumstance bonus to escape' to 'set free of the grapple' on the spell targets turn with movement. Clearly the spell will have some effect and I am in the 'Set Free' camp.

Reasoning why Blink allows spell target to escape a grapple:

Ethereal creatures cannot be grappled by a creature on the material plane BUT if you turn material in the grappler's grasp then you are subject to being grappled. That is where ethereal movement comes into play,

blink, CRB wrote:

While blinking, you can step through (but not see through) solid objects. For each 5 feet of solid material you walk through, there is a 50% chance that you become material. If this occurs, you are shunted off to the nearest open space and take 1d6 points of damage per 5 feet so travelled. and An ethereal creature is invisible, incorporeal, and capable of moving in any direction, even up or down. As an incorporeal creature, you can move through solid objects, including living creatures.

That means if a blink target(blinker) is grappled on the material plane, on the blinker's turn he may (at worse) treat the grappler as an object and attempt to step through him. Roll a d6 or preferred 50/50 die, 1-3(on d6) and his Move(for simplicity Spd/2 on the material plane) sets him free of the grapple, otherwise 4-6(on d6) he travels to the closest open area (usually by random d8 roll in a splash weapon missed the target manner as there are usually many adjacent open squares and PF is rather two-dimensional) and takes 1d6 per 5ft travelled (most GMs end the blinker's Move action there but the spell is not exacting on that resolution) and is free of the grapple (though way too close to the grappler for comfort).

The blink spell target is in a real pickle if there is a grappler on the material plane and one on the ethereal plane.

[Azothath]

Ghost Touch weapon ability

the PRD ghost

hmmm... based on the PRD search PF has changed a bit on this topic so my legacy knowledge is acting as a curse. lol... I'll have to read up more to see what has changed (if anything) before making a firm comment.

The legacy term "manifesting ghost" means that the ghost has moved to the material plane (from the ethereal) and become visible. Just based on the PRD entry on ghosts and my search on "manifest", ghosts are no longer ethereal. That would imply that Ghost Touch weapons will not work on ethereal creatures who may be more than just incorporeal and invisible.

[Diego Rossi]

blahpers wrote:

The inclusion of the ethereal creature rules is most likely a copypasta error made during the port from 3.5--they're mostly irrelevant given the rest of the text. Ignore them and the spell makes more sense.

The CRB has practically nothing on the ethereal plane and how it work, so that text section is decidedly important as it explain what happen when the blinking creature is on the ethereal plane.

[blahpers]

Nah, as the creature is on the ethereal plane for too short and unpredictable a time for many of the properties described as written. Better to focus on the effects of the spell and leave the ethereal rules to either a condition, a section on the ethereal plane itself, or the descriptions of spells or effects that actually involve a creature being there for a measurable duration, such as ethereal jaunt.

[Diego Rossi]

It matter, as an example it is relevant for the interaction with spells like dimensional anchor or dimensional lock and with a few magic items.

It could be explained better, but referencing the text of another, very different spells would not be really useful. Referencing a section about the planes would be the best solution, but the few rows of text in the Environment section of the CRB don't give any useful information.

[toastedamphibian]

blahpers wrote:

A hypothetical ethereal touch weapon combined with see invisibility would work fine against a blinking foe, per this text:

Force Sword

[Azothath]

Ethereal Plane on PathfinderWiki. Ghosts are ethereal inhabitants.
Incorporeal is a condition. Ethereal is a location (as it is a plane).
I'd agree that [force] effects are the easiest way to magically affect creatures on the ethereal plane. Magic Missile is first level or the evoker's force missile..

[Pax Miles]

blahpers wrote:

Ghost touch weapons can strike incorporeal foes, not ethereal ones. They're different conditions.

A hypothetical ethereal touch weapon combined with see invisibility would work fine against a blinking foe, per this text:

Blink wrote:

Physical attacks against you have a 50% miss chance, and the Blind-Fight feat doesn't help opponents, since you're ethereal and not merely invisible. If the attack is capable of striking ethereal creatures, the miss chance is only 20% (for concealment).

If the attacker can see invisible creatures, the miss chance is also only 20%. (For an attacker who can both see and strike ethereal creatures, there is no miss chance.) Likewise, your own attacks have a 20% miss chance, since you sometimes go ethereal just as you are about to strike.

Blink Says Ethereal creatures ARE Incoporeal creatures.

Ghost Touch weapons Speciafically work "normally" on incorporeal creatures. Furthermore, Ghost Touch weapons are considered to be both Corporeal and Incorporeal

[Azothath]

Pax Miles wrote:

Blink Says Ethereal creatures ARE Incoporeal creatures.

This is exactly why I posted my reference to PathfinderWiki above. Other books clarify that ghosts are ethereal. When they manifest they move to the prime and then ghost touch weapons affect them. A wizard with see invisibility can zap them on the ethereal plane using a force effect.

So I would have to agree that the ghost touch weapon ability only works on manifested(material plane) ghosts and does not help when a creature is ethereal. It does help when they are on the material plane and incorporeal. So targets of a blink spell suffer reduced damage on the whole.
I understand the frustration as the spell is older and key information about interplanar interaction is left out.

[Diego Rossi]

Pax Miles wrote:

Blink Says Ethereal creatures ARE Incoporeal creatures.

Yes, it say "Ethereal creatures are incorporeal", but it say they are ethereal too and invisible.

It say: "If the attack is capable of striking ethereal creatures, the miss chance is only 20% (for concealment)." Ghost touch don't give a weapon the ability to strike ethereal creatures, so you are bypassing only one of the clauses, not all of them. From ethereal, incorporeal, invisible you remove incorporeal, but you still get ethereal, and that give you a 20% miss chance for being away 50% of the time, that combined with the 20% miss chance for being invisible half of the time give a 50% miss chance (there is a synergic effect, so the total is higher than the sum of the two miss chances).

It is not simple and it is way more clear if you know more about the planes, but it is all in the spell.