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The classes we have had previewed so far have some cool abilities, like the Rogue's ability to just ignore magical effects that detect their location (such as scrying).
However, spellcasters in Pathfinder 1e have a lot of magic spells that can accomplish something similar, and sometimes broader, and frequently at lower levels than the non-caster classes obtain them.
This taints experiences I have with these otherwise-cool abilities that the non-casters get. I appreciate that a Rogue can shut down abilities to detect her, but I wish I got to play with that ability by the time a wizard is learning how to scry (and detect scrying).
What are your guys' thoughts?
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I share your concern. I think spellcasters need to be more focused that in PF1. A divination specialist should get scry before the rogue can avoid it sure but an illusionist probably shouldn't. But that's just because I got used to Spheres of Power and that level of specialization for casters so now traditional vancian seems crazy OP. I don't expect that to be a popular enough opinion to be widely accepted.
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Very much agree. If spellcasters get to direct the narrative with hard coded spells, the non-spellcasters must have firm abilities to shrug off and fight back whatever hell gets thrown at them.
Simply put, Proactive VS Reactive, at the very least.
Doesn't Blank Slate do the same thing as Mind Blank, an 8th level spell?
And heck, it may be even stronger.
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It sounds like Blank Slate is about on par with Mind Blank, which, in PF1, is an 8th level spell. And thus available right around 15th-16th level, the same level Rogues get this. Assuming that remains the case I'm pretty much on board.
Having feat based abilities on par with spells of the same level but usable at-will is pretty much what I want from my Martial Feats/Spells dichotomy. Spellcasters retain the advantage of having more individual tricks, but can only use them limited times per day, while Martials get fewer tricks that they can use at will. Seems a solid paradigm.
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I would still like to see casters go the way of Spheres of Power.
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We already know that some feats scale, like Power Attack and that druid Thunder reaction, doing more damage at higher levels. I don't see why Blank Slate couldn't be made available at a lower level and scale itself. So say at Deception of Expert it blocks one of the scry / detection / revelation trio (whatever that means in 2E), at Master it blocks two of them and at Legendary it's all three.
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Doesn't Blank Slate do the same thing as Mind Blank, an 8th level spell?
And heck, it may be even stronger.
No, mind blank is much more powerful. It even blocks the effects of wish and miracle, and confers a resistance bonus to mind affecting effects.
Now, if they just gave the rogue 100% on all the time mind blank at 14th level THAT would be interesting!
That defiently seems like something that should be gained at a high level...
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Doesn't Blank Slate do the same thing as Mind Blank, an 8th level spell?
And heck, it may be even stronger.
No, mind blank is much more powerful. It even blocks the effects of wish and miracle, and confers a resistance bonus to mind affecting effects.
Now, if they just gave the rogue 100% on all the time mind blank at 14th level THAT would be interesting!
We actually don't know that it doesn't do all that Mind Blank does. It might easily, and assuming it doesn't is a bit odd.
So they might easily be getting 100% all the time Mind Blank, just at 16th instead of the 14th you'd prefer.
Doesn't Blank Slate do the same thing as Mind Blank, an 8th level spell?
And heck, it may be even stronger.
No, mind blank is much more powerful. It even blocks the effects of wish and miracle, and confers a resistance bonus to mind affecting effects.
Now, if they just gave the rogue 100% on all the time mind blank at 14th level THAT would be interesting!
We actually don't know that it doesn't do all that Mind Blank does. It might easily, and assuming it doesn't is a bit odd.
So they might easily be getting 100% all the time Mind Blank, just at 16th instead of the 14th you'd prefer.
TBH, I would be OK with it at 16th if that is indeed the effect. I don't understand the design philosophy of giving the wizard first crack at particular effects, but I can accept that it exists. It is just frustrating that the wizard will have access to that (landmark) ability of the Rogue a full level before the rogue gets it. At least give the Rogue access before the Wizard if you are going to give away class abilities as spells. ... meh.
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TBH, I would be OK with it at 16th if that is indeed the effect. I don't understand the design philosophy of giving the wizard first crack at particular effects, but I can accept that it exists. It is just frustrating that the wizard will have access to that (landmark) ability of the Rogue a full level before the rogue gets it. At least give the Rogue access before the Wizard if you are going to give away class abilities as spells. ... meh.
We actually don't know Wizards get spells at odd levels any more. There are now 10 spell levels, so the details of when people get spells are definitely being reworked at least a little. It's possible everyone gets 2nd level spells at 4th level now, for example.
It's also possible everyone gets them at 3rd, of course (and then every 2 levels, ending with 10th level spells at 19th level). Perhaps even likely.
On the other hand, it's also possible Mind Blank is now a 9th level spell (with Wish and the like being 10th) and Rogues are still getting it a level ahead even so. That wouldn't surprise me at all.
We really just don't know enough about spellcasting to say at this point.
TBH, I would be OK with it at 16th if that is indeed the effect. I don't understand the design philosophy of giving the wizard first crack at particular effects, but I can accept that it exists. It is just frustrating that the wizard will have access to that (landmark) ability of the Rogue a full level before the rogue gets it. At least give the Rogue access before the Wizard if you are going to give away class abilities as spells. ... meh.We actually don't know Wizards get spells at odd levels any more. There are now 10 spell levels, so the details of when people get spells are definitely being reworked at least a little. It's possible everyone gets 2nd level spells at 4th level now, for example.
It's also possible everyone gets them at 3rd, of course (and then every 2 levels, ending with 10th level spells at 19th level). Perhaps even likely.
On the other hand, it's also possible Mind Blank is now a 9th level spell (with Wish and the like being 10th) and Rogues are still getting it a level ahead even so. That wouldn't surprise me at all.
We really just don't know enough about spellcasting to say at this point.
This is all true. Precedent leaves me less than optimistic. But... hopeful? Yes, hopeful. :D
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Honestly the Mind Blank spell is so powerful in its ability to completely shut down multiple forms of magic and attack for a long duration that they could make it 10th level and I wouldn't even blink.
From the direction these class previews are going I feel Magic is going to come along and mostly invalidate (or make redundant) skills and by extension the rogue. The base martial classes sound as insipid as they currently are.
These previews have a lot of exclamation marks! Abilities that sound completely new but it's just a feature that was there before! These have the problem in PF1 that magic comes around and says "I can stealth, diplomacy, acrobatics, knowledge, lift, dance and recite the very model of a modern major general better than you".
So, I am a little disappointed to see Blank Slate/Mind Blank is a terribly late ability for a specialised spy class that gets it roughly at the same time a caster would get the modular option to recreate the effect. We will have to wait and see how reworked spells go, but from the sounds of it I'm already set out for a mild lack of surprise.
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From the direction these class previews are going I feel Magic is going to come along and mostly invalidate (or make redundant) skills and by extension the rogue. The base martial classes sound as insipid as they currently are.
These previews have a lot of exclamation marks! Abilities that sound completely new but it's just a feature that was there before! These have the problem in PF1 that magic comes around and says "I can stealth, diplomacy, acrobatics, knowledge, lift, dance and recite the very model of a modern major general better than you".
To be fair, every ability that used to be universal and is now something only a specific martial class can do is a thing that casters can no longer do. Considering the popularity of the Reach Cleric the fact that you have to invest resources into making AOO's where the Fighter just does it on his own isn't insignificant.
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A divination specialist should get scry before the rogue can avoid it sure but an illusionist probably shouldn't.
I think this is a great subject for a topic of its own (because I can see this getting super-detailed), but I like that idea. Rather than playing a caster who has access to dozens of spells at every level, you play a specialist who has access to a list of iconic options that depend on what you do. You could use the existing schools as the basis for that. As it relates to the topic at hand, that would certainly go a long way toward helping niche protection for non-caster classes.
But that's just because I got used to Spheres of Power and that level of specialization for casters so now traditional vancian seems crazy OP.
What are "Spheres of Power"?
Very much agree. If spellcasters get to direct the narrative with hard coded spells, the non-spellcasters must have firm abilities to shrug off and fight back whatever hell gets thrown at them.
I like your way of putting this. Casters do have a variety of abilities that introduce new aspects into the narrative of the campaign (scrying, resurrection, teleportation, etc.), so it behooves Paizo to consider how the other classes in the campaign have “evolved” to account for a world with these abilities.
It sounds like Blank Slate is about on par with Mind Blank, which, in PF1, is an 8th level spell. And thus available right around 15th-16th level, the same level Rogues get this. Assuming that remains the case I'm pretty much on board.
Having feat based abilities on par with spells of the same level but usable at-will is pretty much what I want from my Martial Feats/Spells dichotomy. Spellcasters retain the advantage of having more individual tricks, but can only use them limited times per day, while Martials get fewer tricks that they can use at will. Seems a solid paradigm.
We already know that some feats scale, like Power Attack and that druid Thunder reaction, doing more damage at higher levels. I don't see why Blank Slate couldn't be made available at a lower level and scale itself. So say at Deception of Expert it blocks one of the scry / detection / revelation trio (whatever that means in 2E), at Master it blocks two of them and at Legendary it's all three.
Taking these two comments together: I respect the idea that epic powers should become available at epic levels, and I also think that non-casters need cool toys to play at with low levels. I think we all want wizards with cool tricks for finding slippery thieves, and rogues with clever tricks for outwitting meddlesome mages. So I’d be happy with some type of scaling anti-detection ability for rogues: at lower levels, maybe it just increases the difficulty to target them with detection abilities, or lets them shrug off detection abilities early, and higher levels eventually lead to the “nope” power. I’m not against other classes – even casters – getting an anti-detection ability, but I’d like it to always feel like the rogue is “the best” at it, in a meaningful fashion.
But that's just because I got used to Spheres of Power and that level of specialization for casters so now traditional vancian seems crazy OP.What are "Spheres of Power"?
Spheres of Power (SoP) is a third party magic system made by Drop Dead Studios.
http://paizo.com/products/btpy96pr?Spheres-of-Power
In practice it replaces the magic system of the core Pathfinder game with one based on spell points and spell effects known (called talents). SoP enforces specialization which is a nerf to casters but it is built to allow character concepts to be playable from level one in a balanced way which generally mollifies players. It is also way closer to how magic works in many popular books and video games. I like it a lot.
Also completely unrelated I cannot get the "how to format your text" show button to work anymore.
I remember in very old D&D, it was the MONK who got the blanket immunity to mental effects at high level, what eventually turned into "Still Mind" trash we have today.
Expecting Monk to get back that "Empty Mind" ability in this edition, closer to it's true power.
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Also completely unrelated I cannot get the "how to format your text" show button to work anymore.
It’s a known issue to the web team. Meanwhile, replace curlys with brackets:
{url=www.hyperlink.com/example}displayed link text{/url}
Also completely unrelated I cannot get the "how to format your text" show button to work anymore.
It’s a known issue to the web team. Meanwhile, replace curlys with brackets:
{url=www.hyperlink.com/example}displayed link text{/url}
Thanks.
And