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Long term lack of sleep can be cured by a single application of Lesser restoration?
Currently, the only official answer is yes. The only effect of lack of sleep is defined in a FAQ, that say:
Sleep: What penalties happen if a character stays up all night without sleep?
The character is fatigued.
posted April 2013 | back to top
That can be cured by 8 hours of complete rest (undefined, but probably standing still, eating and reading cover it) or by 1 application of Lesser restoration.
Theoretically, beside a 1 hour stop every day to recover the cleric spells, our character can be active for 24 hours, every day of the week.
There is even some proof in favor of that interpretation as at least two NPCs in different AP do that.
That seem to invalidate thing like:
- "Humanoids breathe, eat, and sleep." There are magical ways to produce food and water and some costly way to prevent it (ring of sustenance, not a lot of money, but an invaluable ring slot) but it is not possible to cure the damage for starvation and thirst until the creature eat and drink. It is strange that the damage from lacking sleep can be cured with magic without problems.
- the Slepless mythic power. Why take a mythical all that you need is a second level spell?
- the limits to the working hours in a day. It don't affect magic item production, but any other thing can be done 23 hours a day.
I would like an extension to that FAQ, stating if LR can cure the lack of sleep even after several days without sleeping or if there some effect after a few days without sleep.
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You know, you don't need to have actual rules written in a Paizo rulebook to deal with things like common sense.
Above and beyond the fatigued and exhausted conditions, prolonged lack of sleep will be more and more debilitating, with sleepless PCs becoming increasingly irritable, uneasy, accident-prone, manic-depressive, paranoid and unpredictable in their behaviour. What numerical results this might have in game terms is up to the DM, but there exist rules for debilitating mental states and that's where I'd turn if PCs tried to stretch their waking hours past human tolerances.
You don't need RAW for everything. DM fiat has its place.
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I don't need it, but apparently some people think that without something written against it, it can be done.
There are several spells that allow to do guard duty for a full night without consequences (Keep watch) and other spells to enhance sleep (like napstack) that become way less important if Lesser Restoration resolve everything.
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You mean to tell me that the *Death* condition can be cured by a simple casting of Breathe of Life, Raise Dead, Resurrection, Reincarnation (ignoring Limited Wish, Wish, and Miracle)?
You mean to tell me that the "I've lose an arm or a leg" condition can be cured by a simple casting of Regeneration?
Are these somehow less severe conditions than not sleeping?
But, to one of your other points: Humans will die without sleep, yes, unless of course you cast lesser restoration, because magic!
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Keep Watch is a 1st level spell that a bunch of non-cleric classes get and gives you the benefits of a full night sleep (spells, abilities, Hp, etc.)
Nap Stack is a 3rd level spell that is ridiculously helpful in essentially granting extra night's sleep for a single night's sleep.
Lesser Restoration is a 2nd level spell that takes away the fatigued condition and does not give you any benefits for a night's rest.
Honestly, Keep Watch is way more of the issue than lesser restoration.
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That's a scarecrow argument, and little to do with this thread.
It is completely applicable. Magic can bring you back to life, even after being dead for 10 years. Why would removing the need for rest somehow fall outside its boundaries?
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You know, you don't need to have actual rules written in a Paizo rulebook to deal with things like common sense.
How does common sense fit into a scenario where we're talking about magical spells?
"You need to sleep regardless of magic" makes no more or less intrinsic sense than "You can use magic to get around the need to sleep". Because it's magic.
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A second level spell is "surely" the equivalent of a 5th level spell with limitations ("If cast upon a creature that has died within 1 round,") consequences (Creatures brought back to life through breath of life gain a temporary negative level that lasts for 1 day." and a 7th levels spell.
But that second level spell doesn't give you any benefits of actually sleeping, which is a big downside to any but pure melee classes. Like I said before, Keep Watch seems to be way worse as a 1st level spell.
The real question for a GM to houserule is whether just removing the fatigued condition is enough to prevent you from dying from lack of sleeping. I would say yes in my games because ultimately it is fatigue that kills you.
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Keep Watch is a 1st level spell that a bunch of non-cleric classes get and gives you the benefits of a full night sleep (spells, abilities, Hp, etc.)
Nap Stack is a 3rd level spell that is ridiculously helpful in essentially granting extra night's sleep for a single night's sleep.
Lesser Restoration is a 2nd level spell that takes away the fatigued condition and does not give you any benefits for a night's rest.
Honestly, Keep Watch is way more of the issue than lesser restoration.
Keep watch is cast in advance, has limitations (any vigorous activity end it, so not a free pass to do what you want) and only affect your need to sleep.
Lesser restoration has a wide range of applications.
Nap Stack can affect a creature once a week, so repeated applications aren't possible.
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But that second level spell doesn't give you any benefits of actually sleeping, which is a big downside to any but pure melee classes. Like I said before, Keep Watch seems to be way worse as a 1st level spell.A second level spell is "surely" the equivalent of a 5th level spell with limitations ("If cast upon a creature that has died within 1 round,") consequences (Creatures brought back to life through breath of life gain a temporary negative level that lasts for 1 day." and a 7th levels spell.
And divine casters (they don't need rest to recover spells).
The real question for a GM to houserule is whether just removing the fatigued condition is enough to prevent you from dying from lack of sleeping. I would say yes in my games because ultimately it is fatigue that kills you.
Physical fatigue can easily be avoided, mental fatigue can't. You can go mad for lack of sleep without suffering muscle fatigue.
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I'll bring up that Paizo has used lesser restoration to remove all the penalties of not sleeping for multiple days for NPCs in at least 3 adventures (Curse of the Crimson Throne book 1, Shattered Star book 1, Shattered Star book 4).
So it's pretty clear how they view lesser restoration working.
Sure, it'll work. For a while. But even with magic amphetamines coursing through your body, after a week or so something is bound to snap.
FWIW, I have no problem with any of the aforementioned spells removing the need for sleep, for adventuring purposes, as a short-term solution to dangerous adventuring conditions. But if some player is trying to niggle his way into never having to sleep, thanks to these spells, and using the extra time to craft or game the system in some way, you can bet that my inner DM will make him see the error of his ways eventually.
It's up to the players to decide on their actions. But it's up to the DM to present them with the consequences of those choices.
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Sure, it'll work. For a while. But even with magic amphetamines coursing through your body, after a week or so something is bound to snap.
Why? You are bring a physical drug to a spell fight. Why would you snap when you DON'T have any fatigue? Isn't the accumulated fatigue that is stressful? You're using magic to do the equivalent of 8 hours of sleep: removing fatigue.
Real life common sense isn't the same as real fantasy common sense, where you can repeatedly fall off a 2000' cliff and not be impaired, cube law doesn't exist and gods grant supernatural abilities. 'well in REAL life' isn't a very compelling argument. The real world doesn't have spells and pathfinder isn't meant to be an exhaustively realistic world simulator.
As far as the FAQ, I think the old FAQ is clear: no sleep = fatigue, full stop. Nothing added, implied or assumed. It simply gives you a condition and there are spells that remove said condition. It's not hard. You miss your next sleep and you gain the condition again which you can remove is you wish. As such, there is little point in clicking it as the old FAQ says everything that's needed and I see no reason to expand/rewrite it.
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Sure, it'll work. For a while. But even with magic amphetamines coursing through your body, after a week or so something is bound to snap.Why? You are bring a physical drug to a spell fight. Why would you snap when you DON'T have any fatigue? Isn't the accumulated fatigue that is stressful? You're using magic to do the equivalent of 8 hours of sleep: removing fatigue.
Real life common sense isn't the same as real fantasy common sense, where you can repeatedly fall off a 2000' cliff and not be impaired, cube law doesn't exist and gods grant supernatural abilities. 'well in REAL life' isn't a very compelling argument. The real world doesn't have spells and pathfinder isn't meant to be an exhaustively realistic world simulator.
As far as the FAQ, I think the old FAQ is clear: no sleep = fatigue, full stop. Nothing added, implied or assumed. It simply gives you a condition and there are spells that remove said condition. It's not hard. You miss your next sleep and you gain the condition again which you can remove is you wish. As such, there is little point in clicking it as the old FAQ says everything that's needed and I see no reason to expand/rewrite it.
On the same line of thought: as a dead condition don't exist, there isn't any game effect for being dead.
On the same line of thought: as a dead condition don't exist, there isn't any game effect for being dead.Sure, it'll work. For a while. But even with magic amphetamines coursing through your body, after a week or so something is bound to snap.Why? You are bring a physical drug to a spell fight. Why would you snap when you DON'T have any fatigue? Isn't the accumulated fatigue that is stressful? You're using magic to do the equivalent of 8 hours of sleep: removing fatigue.
Real life common sense isn't the same as real fantasy common sense, where you can repeatedly fall off a 2000' cliff and not be impaired, cube law doesn't exist and gods grant supernatural abilities. 'well in REAL life' isn't a very compelling argument. The real world doesn't have spells and pathfinder isn't meant to be an exhaustively realistic world simulator.
As far as the FAQ, I think the old FAQ is clear: no sleep = fatigue, full stop. Nothing added, implied or assumed. It simply gives you a condition and there are spells that remove said condition. It's not hard. You miss your next sleep and you gain the condition again which you can remove is you wish. As such, there is little point in clicking it as the old FAQ says everything that's needed and I see no reason to expand/rewrite it.
"Dead: The character's hit points are reduced to a negative amount equal to his Constitution score, his Constitution drops to 0, or he is killed outright by a spell or effect. The character's soul leaves his body."
"When a living creature dies, its soul departs its body, leaves the Material Plane, travels through the Astral Plane, and goes to abide on the plane where the creature's deity resides."
"The Outer Planes are also the final resting place of souls from the Material Plane, whether that final rest takes the form of calm introspection or eternal damnation."
So your soul can still do things but your body is now an object.
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On the same line of thought: as a dead condition don't exist, there isn't any game effect for being dead.Sure, it'll work. For a while. But even with magic amphetamines coursing through your body, after a week or so something is bound to snap.Why? You are bring a physical drug to a spell fight. Why would you snap when you DON'T have any fatigue? Isn't the accumulated fatigue that is stressful? You're using magic to do the equivalent of 8 hours of sleep: removing fatigue.
Real life common sense isn't the same as real fantasy common sense, where you can repeatedly fall off a 2000' cliff and not be impaired, cube law doesn't exist and gods grant supernatural abilities. 'well in REAL life' isn't a very compelling argument. The real world doesn't have spells and pathfinder isn't meant to be an exhaustively realistic world simulator.
As far as the FAQ, I think the old FAQ is clear: no sleep = fatigue, full stop. Nothing added, implied or assumed. It simply gives you a condition and there are spells that remove said condition. It's not hard. You miss your next sleep and you gain the condition again which you can remove is you wish. As such, there is little point in clicking it as the old FAQ says everything that's needed and I see no reason to expand/rewrite it.
"Dead: The character's hit points are reduced to a negative amount equal to his Constitution score, his Constitution drops to 0, or he is killed outright by a spell or effect. The character's soul leaves his body."
"When a living creature dies, its soul departs its body, leaves the Material Plane, travels through the Astral Plane, and goes to abide on the plane where the creature's deity resides."
"The Outer Planes are also the final resting place of souls from the Material Plane, whether that final rest takes the form of calm introspection or eternal damnation."
So your soul can still do things but your body is now an object.
Dead: The character's hit points are reduced to a negative amount equal to his Constitution score, his Constitution drops to 0, or he is killed outright by a spell or effect. The character's soul leaves his body. Dead characters cannot benefit from normal or magical healing, but they can be restored to life via magic. A dead body decays normally unless magically preserved, but magic that restores a dead character to life also restores the body either to full health or to its condition at the time of death (depending on the spell or device). Either way, resurrected characters need not worry about rigor mortis, decomposition, and other conditions that affect dead bodies.
Let's see:
- it don't say that the dead creature become an object;- it don't say that the dead creature can't move.
We assume those things because in real life it work that way, but you refuse real life comparisons. Unless it is convenient for your argument. Stick to one version, RL comparisons matter or not?
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I would be open to an updated FAQ that said, for example, "If a character stays up all night without sleep the character is fatigued. If the character stays up for a second consecutive night the character is exhausted."
But, as written, a level 2 spell removes the need to sleep unless the GM house-rules it.
Let's see:
- it don't say that the dead creature become an object;
- it don't say that the dead creature can't move.
We assume those things because in real life it work that way, but you refuse real life comparisons. Unless it is convenient for your argument. Stick to one version, RL comparisons matter or not?
Non-living without a soul... We know from various souls spells what happens without a soul: take magic jar. Control of the body goes with the soul. No movement.
As to object: "Creature: A creature is an active participant in the story or world." As a dead body is non-living and incapable of taking and action, physical or mental, it is no longer a creature.
The actual rules for dead if you add them all up. You aren't required to use real life to figure it out. And even is we assume it DID require real life, why assume that using real life for unwritten rules allows you to override things that actually ARE in the rules because you want them to not work the way the rules say they are?
"If a character stays up all night without sleep the character is fatigued. If the character stays up for a second consecutive night the character is exhausted."
That's essentially what happens now. You skip a nights sleep, you're fatigued. You skip another [without removing it] and you gain fatigued again, which means: "Doing anything that would normally cause fatigue causes the fatigued character to become exhausted."
So I don't see how rewording it like that would change much. You'd need an explicit exclusion from cures and/or a requirement of rest to remove.
Keep watch is cast in advance, has limitations (any vigorous activity end it, so not a free pass to do what you want) and only affect your need to sleep.Keep Watch is a 1st level spell that a bunch of non-cleric classes get and gives you the benefits of a full night sleep (spells, abilities, Hp, etc.)
Nap Stack is a 3rd level spell that is ridiculously helpful in essentially granting extra night's sleep for a single night's sleep.
Lesser Restoration is a 2nd level spell that takes away the fatigued condition and does not give you any benefits for a night's rest.
Honestly, Keep Watch is way more of the issue than lesser restoration.
Keep Watch is a lower level spell that affects multiple targets.
Lesser restoration has a wide range of applications.
While Lesser Restoration is a higher level spell that applies to only a single target.
One of the applications to which it applies is curing the negative effects of going without sleep.
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Repetition doesn't help.
This whole thread is repetition. What did you expect?
Pfft! let the spell do what it says. There is no need to house rule unstated penalties that can just as easily be inferred to be restored by the spell. It is well established that the interaction between real life and pathfinder is tenuous at best and non-existant when you add magic.
Staying awake for 24 hours doesn't allow you to bypass restrictions on crafting magic items, which is about the most egregious abuse I can envision. The normal crafting rules are so horrible that if they want to reduce the time to craft full plate by a third I say good for them.
I feel like this is a bad FAQ candidate on the theory that there isn't a satisfying quick answer. Rules to model long term sleep deprivation would mean writing a whole new subsystem of escalating penalties eventually leading to madness and death. That isn't the sort of thing Paizo likes to do in a FAQ.
Yep. Simple and easy fit the bill for most 'adventures'.
Though a subsystem like this already exists. For instance, you could use the "sanity and madness" rules from gamemastery or horror. Have each sleepless night require a save vs sanity damage.
There is a diffrence between fatigued + fatigued and fatigued + exhausted in that math. The point of the proposed rewording is that curing the first nights fatigue would not prevent you from being exhausted after the second. As opposed to how currently it does.
Yes, by my reading of that is that is ISN'T fatigued + exhausted.
Even if it would, then you have items like Cord of Stubborn Resolve [damage instead of fatigue/exhausted] and Scarlet and Green Cabochon (Flawed) Ioun Stone [different conditions instead] or combine them with oracle curses and you never have to sleep with the revised wording working like you think.
Repetition doesn't help.This whole thread is repetition. What did you expect?
It's repeating the repeated repetition from another thread... :P
Staying awake for 24 hours doesn't allow you to bypass restrictions on crafting magic items, which is about the most egregious abuse I can envision. The normal crafting rules are so horrible that if they want to reduce the time to craft full plate by a third I say good for them.
it's good to know that pathfinder guilds and unions are so powerful prevent any unauthorized crafting over 8 hours on a cosmic level. ;)
Lesser Restoration would remove the fatigue condition for not having rested, but it doesn't mean the caster has actually rested.
No natural healing from rest would have taken place. Arcane casters would not be able to regain spells.
I think sacrificing a second level spell slot to not sleep is a fine trade.
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I feel like this is a bad FAQ candidate on the theory that there isn't a satisfying quick answer. Rules to model long term sleep deprivation would mean writing a whole new subsystem of escalating penalties eventually leading to madness and death. That isn't the sort of thing Paizo likes to do in a FAQ.
I am surprised it wasn't done in the Horror Adventures book. That was an appropriate place.
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Pfft! let the spell do what it says. There is no need to house rule unstated penalties that can just as easily be inferred to be restored by the spell. It is well established that the interaction between real life and pathfinder is tenuous at best and non-existant when you add magic.
Staying awake for 24 hours doesn't allow you to bypass restrictions on crafting magic items, which is about the most egregious abuse I can envision. The normal crafting rules are so horrible that if they want to reduce the time to craft full plate by a third I say good for them.
It allow you to march and adventure 8 hours and then enchant for 8 hours.
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Though a subsystem like this already exists. For instance, you could use the "sanity and madness" rules from gamemastery or horror. Have each sleepless night require a save vs sanity damage.
That makes alot of sense.
Maybe I am missing something, but you don't lose sanity for a sleepless night. You lose sanity for the spells or sanity affecting effects or events that cause the sleepless night. They both cause the sanity loss and the sleepless night, but the sleepless night only cause fatigue.
As opposed to this, which makes none.
How? Every night without sleep you get fatigued. With the rules on getting fatigued while already fatigued making you exhausted, a second night without sleep will make you exhausted. "If a character stays up all night without sleep the character is fatigued. If the character stays up for a second consecutive night the character is exhausted" just skipped the explanation. IMO it REQUIRES 'even if the first nights fatigue is removed" to not work the exact same as it currently does.
It allow you to march and adventure 8 hours and then enchant for 8 hours.
Is that a problem? A first level spell + a boro bead/pearl of power 1 does it for multiple people.
Secondly, "If the caster is out adventuring, he can devote 4 hours each day to item creation, although he nets only 2 hours' worth of work."
Maybe I am missing something, but you don't lose sanity for a sleepless night. You lose sanity for the spells or sanity affecting effects or events that cause the sleepless night. They both cause the sanity loss and the sleepless night, but the sleepless night only cause fatigue.
People have been saying, in both threads, that continued sleeplessness makes you crazy.
But even with magic amphetamines coursing through your body, after a week or so something is bound to snap.
How?Not "makes no sense" in the "how could anyone belive this" way but in the "wtf does 'that is that is ISN'T' mean?" way. It made no sense literally/linguistically. Just no notion of what you were attempting to convey.
FAQ 1 [first day, fatigued] + 1 [second day, fatigued] = 2 on second day, exhausted: So another way to say that by removing the math is "If a character stays up all night without sleep the character is fatigued. If the character stays up for a second consecutive night the character is exhausted." Nothing in the quoted statement is at odds with the original FAQ.
If you skip a nights sleep, you're fatigued, and if you skip 2 in a row, you're exhausted. That's the FAQ. 1 + 1 still equals 2. the wording of the quote LITERALLY say what happens if you use the FAQ.
I disagree.
Feel free to. I don't see how you can follow the FAQ and NOT have the character fatigued on the first sleepless night and exhausted on the second. It would be different if we weren't talking about additive conditions, but we are. It's not fatigued night 1 and sickened night 2 [2 clearly different conditions].
PS: what happens if the a character under your reading rests for an hour? "After 1 hour of complete rest, an exhausted character becomes fatigued." If the idea is that it's "fatigued + exhausted" then reducing the exhausted to fatigued would mean it's fatigued + fatigued which makes it exhausted? So he rests another hour to get it down to a single fatigued that can be cured? The the third night, if they cured the fatigue the second, just has to rest an hour before they can get it cured?
PPS: The original FAQ is looking better and better by the second... :P
Lesser Restoration is less of a five-hour energy situation, and more a miracle elixir that restores you to prime condition. (Well, to a point.)
If my players kept abusing this I probably would throw in sanity, but that's an optional rule that the GM decides.
What exactly is the objective here? I'm not seeing that much ambiguity in the rules and FAQs. Is it an issue you can't just houserule?
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AM THIS NEW FLAVOR OF MONTH ARGUMENT?
BARBARIAN NOT EVEN REMEMBER LAST TIME BARBARIAN SLEEP. AM NOT HAVING NEGATIVE EFFECTS ON BARBARIAN PSYCHE. SEVERE ALLNIGHT ADDICTION AM CAUSING PROBLEMS OF -1 FOR SKILLS THROUGH 17TH LEVEL, BUT EVEN THAT AM JUST HEART OF FIELDS AWAY FROM BEING NONISSUE FATIGUE WISE. BUT WAIT, BARBARIAN HEAR SAY, ALLNIGHT AM MAKING EXHAUSTED AFTER 8 HOURS. TRUE, SAY BARBARIAN, BUT HEART OF FIELDS AM IGNORING THIS FOR FIRST TIME PER DAY, THEN TAKING MORE ALLNIGHT, THEN EXHAUSTED AGAIN, THEN USE SOOTHING WORD POTION FOR FATIGUE, THEN TAKE MORE ALLNIGHT, THEN AM NEW DAY SO HEART OF FIELDS AGAIN, THEN MORE SOOTHING WORD POTION.
THAT AM NOT EVEN MAGIC, THAT AM ALCHEMICAL SOLUTION. SLEEP AM FOR WEAK, ALSO FOR CASTYS. BECAUSE CASTYS AM WEAK. THAT AM WHAT BARBARIAN GETTING AT HERE.
I didn't make any reading based on the FAQ.
But I did and most likely so would anyone else that cares about sleep. If you just go from one to the next, it reads the same. I guess it could read differently in a vacuum.
You seem a bit off today. Everything okay? We frequently disagree, but I don't usually get the feeling that your completly misunderstanding me to nearly this degree. Maybe I am just not making any sense on this topic.
Honestly I'm feeling like crap and could use a bucket of pain meds... Migraines suck. I might be missing something or wording things badly [it wouldn't be the first time tonight]. :P
Regardless, this is already more effort than I am interested in investing in one hypothetical example of a possible FAQ answer, ya know?
I agree. Lets agree to disagree and move on. I think it time I try to sleep off this headache.
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It allow you to march and adventure 8 hours and then enchant for 8 hours.Is that a problem? A first level spell + a boro bead/pearl of power 1 does it for multiple people.
Secondly, "If the caster is out adventuring, he can devote 4 hours each day to item creation, although he nets only 2 hours' worth of work."
Keep watch stop functioning if you do any vigorous activity. For me enchanting is a vigorous activity. YMMV.
"Out adventuring" applies if you do that in a distracting environment and/or while moving around and camping. If you are able to secure a safe camping location and at least 4 full, continuous hours, you can do it at normal speed.
Maybe I am missing something, but you don't lose sanity for a sleepless night. You lose sanity for the spells or sanity affecting effects or events that cause the sleepless night. They both cause the sanity loss and the sleepless night, but the sleepless night only cause fatigue.People have been saying, in both threads, that continued sleeplessness makes you crazy.
I thought you where citing something in that manual. Yes, making a houserule can be a good solution for the GM.
There is the usual problem that guys with high mental stats have a better time with the sanity rules.So the rugged fighter is more subject to it than a nerd like wizard.
I don't see how you can follow the FAQ and NOT have the character fatigued on the first sleepless night and exhausted on the second.
Because if you cast Lesser Restoration after the first night, the fatigue goes away, so you are not exhausted after the second night.
With my alternative wording, the second night would make you exhausted even if you weren't already fatigued."After 1 hour of complete rest, an exhausted character becomes fatigued."
Good point.
Still, "Lesser Restoration every day plus an hour-long power nap" might bother people less than "Lesser Restoration every day and never sleeps again".
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"After 1 hour of complete rest, an exhausted character becomes fatigued."Good point.
Still, "Lesser Restoration every day plus an hour-long power nap" might bother people less than "Lesser Restoration every day and never sleeps again".
True.
Some years ago I read an article about a Canadian researcher that was able, under controlled conditions and with medical monitoring, to gradually reduce the hours of sleep needed to two for night for a full year without perceptible consequences.So doing the same when Lesser Restoration substitute for "controlled conditions and medical monitoring" would be acceptable.
Nap stack do that for several people at the same time (with limitations).
From what I know there is a huge difference, from a medical point of view, between never sleeping and sleeping a small number of hours but having a deep sleep.