The inherent weakness in save-or-suck spells is that you spend a round casting a spell that may not have any effect if your opponent saves. In a game that is often about economy of actions, what is the point of making a save-or-suck character? Following that admittedly provocative question, please detail class builds that you think are good save-or-suck characters (and why). Or at least give good save-or-suck spells that work, and why. Convince me about why I should make that type of character. Thanks!
A witch with the slumber hex
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Maguses. With the enforcer feat, the spell frostbite, and a cruel weapon you can intimidate and sicken opponents for a total of minus 4 on saving throws. After that, use the metamagic Persistent Spell to make them roll twice against your spell. This improves your odds of successfully neutralizing your enemy dramatically.
And the best part? Even if your Glitterdust or Aqueous Orb fails completely, you still have a full attack action that's nearly as good as a fighter's.
Yes, Don, that was pretty hasty. But a witch with the slumber hex is a one-trick pony (and it pisses off many GMs). Any other ideas?
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Clerics have a harder time intimidating people than maguses, but if your GM let's you take the Blade of Mercy trait, you have enough money to buy a merciful weapon, or you start at a high enough level to use cornugon smash, such a cleric would have more and better spells to save or die with.
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Even without the Slumber Hex, the witch is pretty good at this. With Cackle letting both Evil Eye and Misfortune stack, you can land your save-or-suck spell of choice (and you've got a lot on your list) pretty reliably.
Even without the Slumber Hex, the witch is pretty good at this. With Cackle letting both Evil Eye and Misfortune stack, you can land your save-or-suck spell of choice (and you've got a lot on your list) pretty reliably.
Agreed. Slumber just puts the Witch over the top.
Dazing metamagic with AOE is a good one. Even if they make the save, the spell will generally have some effect.
What do you mean by dazing metamagic? What is the source? Thanks!
But a witch with the slumber hex is a one-trick ponyAre you kidding? Slumber on a witch takes up the cost of a single feat. They're still a full caster, and can get about nineteen other tricks going without even breaking a sweat.
Nope, I'm not kidding, and I am running off of personal anecdote. Which is why I posed the question to folks that I know have a lot more experience than me. The whole point is to get your more knowledgeable guidance. If I decide to make a character like this, I want to know what works for a range of people so I can narrow down my wide array of options (and not waste time looking at the sub par) before I begin. Thanks for posting!
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In no particular order.
- fey serpentine crossblooded sorcerer gnome or kitsune.
- dual cursed oracle. Lots of options dazing flames, waves adds slow to any cold spell.
- shaman cleric wizard spells with hexes.
- exploiter wizard to crank dcs.
- nature fang druid study to dcs.
- eyebiter mesmerists can easily crater saves
- finally monk 1 shaman x. With hex strike debuffs stacked fatigue, entangle, shaken, sickened and evil eye or misfortune (hexstrike). Stunning fist and slumber/ or other save or die to follow up.
Add persistent rods to any build, dazing to most, I like sage figment familairs to intimidate before you cast a spell.
A cold damage spell with the rime spell metamagic works because rime spell triggers on damage, not a failed save. Either a magus with frostbite, or a wizard, arcanist, sorcerer or druid with an area cold spell would be the usual ways to use this.
Dazing spell comes from the Advanced player's guide. It's generally only useful at higher levels due to the +3 spell levels, but if you either have the traits to reduce metamagic cost on one spell, or a metamagic rod, you can do some weird stuff with otherwise unimpressive spells. Imagine a familiar with dazing burning gaze for example, or a suit of dazing Gorum's armor.
Persistent spell (also APG) makes SoS spells more likely to land. Even the base +2 spell levels can be well worth it, and the same sort of means can be used to reduce/avoid that cost. Along the same lines, a dual-cursed oracle with the misfortune revelation can spend a swift action to make an enemy reroll a save.
Edit: Also, remember that with most SoS spells you target more than one enemy, so your chance of affecting at least one goes up.
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I really like the Kitsune Mesmerist I wrote up a while back which focuses on enchantment spells. With the Psychic Inception bold stare available at level 3+, even things that are normally mindless/immune can fall victim to your enchantment abilities. Then tank the opponents saves with your stare, combined with high DCs thanks to the Kitsune Magic racial trait and Spell Focus/Greater Spell Focus...makes for a particularly dangerous save-or-suck character. Who is still also a d8 HD and 3/4 BAB character in case you get stuck having to fight something.
Sanctified Slayer Inquisitors.
I did a dazing spell build here. Not perfect but let’s you chuck dazing fireballs by eighth and before that serious damage.
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My experience: I made a Sorcerer with Spell Focus: Conjuration.
I mostly used Grease and Glitterdust as my SoS spells.
The advantage of these is that they don't upset GMs too much. Sleep or Hold Person or Dazing basically end the combat if they work. Glitterdust only blinds the enemy, so they can still fight back, but any competent martial ally is unlikely to use to a blinded foe.
Also, these two spells allowed me to target either Reflex or Will save. Most enemies have at least one bad save.
And they don't allow spell resistance.
And both spells have other uses. Grease to protect from grapple, Glitterdust to reveal invisible.
As for the issue of "it might not work and then you've wasted your round" - play the odds. Any given attack might miss, but no-one misses all the time. (Unless your GM is fudging against you.)
Clerics have a harder time intimidating people than maguses, but if your GM let's you take the Blade of Mercy trait, you have enough money to buy a merciful weapon, or you start at a high enough level to use cornugon smash, such a cleric would have more and better spells to save or die with.In general you are probably right, but I haven't seen a single feat, or class feature that has the potential of adding a double digit modifier to an intimidate test, but the torture domain can do that
Asmodeus. You're on to something here! Of course, you still can't do a full attack on the same round that you cast, and you have to smite them and then hit them again to proc your cruel weapon before casting your spell . . . but even considering these limitations, I might be rolling up a cleric some time soon.
Asmodeus. You're on to something here! Of course, you still can't do a full attack on the same round that you cast, and you have to smite them and then hit them again to proc your cruel weapon before casting your spell . . . but even considering these limitations, I might be rolling up a cleric some time soon.Clerics have a harder time intimidating people than maguses, but if your GM let's you take the Blade of Mercy trait, you have enough money to buy a merciful weapon, or you start at a high enough level to use cornugon smash, such a cleric would have more and better spells to save or die with.In general you are probably right, but I haven't seen a single feat, or class feature that has the potential of adding a double digit modifier to an intimidate test, but the torture domain can do that
If you take a single level of Rogue (Thug), then you can hit them with an AOO when they run away (from Fear), assuming you've beaten the Intimidate DC by 10.
The inherent weakness in save-or-suck spells is that you spend a round casting a spell that may not have any effect if your opponent saves. In a game that is often about economy of actions, what is the point of making a save-or-suck character? Following that admittedly provocative question, please detail class builds that you think are good save-or-suck characters (and why). Or at least give good save-or-suck spells that work, and why. Convince me about why I should make that type of character. Thanks!
Chronomancer Wizard is a good option for a save-or-suck caster. It won't save you the wasted action if the target makes the save, but it will let you recover the expended spell.
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Major thing for save-or-suck casters: have things that target each save, and enough knowledge to figure out which save a particular foe is weak in. Fort save targets wizards, Will saves against giants, Reflex saves against clerics, etc.
Puppetmaster Magus, Kitsune, with magic racial trait and Spell Focus/Greater Spell Focus...
The Theurge with Spell Synthesis can get you a very limited number of +4 bonuses to your spell DCs per day.
Focused Metamagic gets you a +2. Persistent Spell Metamagic gives your targets two chances to fail. Rods of either can be very nice.
Heighten Spell can help also, but isn't available in a rod.
Spell Focus, Greater Spell Focus, and Epic Spell Focus each get you a +1.
And... possibly most importantly... bonuses to your primary casting stat get added directly to your DCs. SoS characters can't afford to be versatile. Get a Headband for your primary casting stat as soon as you can afford it.
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Kitsune Crossblooded fey/psychic bloodline sorcerer. Assuming 18-19 cha at level 1 and Spell Focus your save DC for all Enchantment(Compulsion) is 19. Favored class bonus increases the DC by 1 for every 4 levels. You get Id Insinuation, Hold Monster, Confusion, and a wide variety of other spells. Pick up Fox Shape at level 7 for an instant +5 AC, and now you get to pretend you're someone's familiar. You're not really feat starved. Greater Spell Focus and spell penetration, from there you can just pick up metamagics. Granted there are a number of creatures immune to compulsion effects, but there are plenty of creatures that aren't immune, and they'll have a fairly hard time resisting your effects.
*Edit* And for funsies, stack crossblooded with the Seeker archetype for trapfinding! You're not going to be using Eschew Materials anyway, and your 3rd bloodline powers for both Fey and Psychic are meh. 9th level psychic power is what you're really after.
Lots of great options here, but I'm leaning towards a witch. It seems they are really made for SoS builds with the cackle, evil eye and misfortune hexes.
Kitsune Fey Sorcerers have silly high DC saves for enchantment spells.
The Misfortune ability of a dual cursed Oracle is silly OP given that an extra reroll is roughly the equivalent of +5 on your save DC.
This is more powerful for high levels when you can quicken or for when working with others but the void wizard can devastate an opponents saves and AC for a round with a -1 for every 2 caster levels you have. If he's coupled with another caster you could make extremely powerful opponents drop with real ease.
Maguses. With the enforcer feat, the spell frostbite, and a cruel weapon you can intimidate and sicken opponents for a total of minus 4 on saving throws. After that, use the metamagic Persistent Spell to make them roll twice against your spell. This improves your odds of successfully neutralizing your enemy dramatically.
And the best part? Even if your Glitterdust or Aqueous Orb fails completely, you still have a full attack action that's nearly as good as a fighter's.
Specifically hexcrafter magus, because then you can slumber hex as well.
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Ok so everyone gave very complete answers on this I'D just like to do a bit of a synthesis of the whole concept, because to me, when I transitioned from boom boom wizarding to control wizarding it was a revelation and I'd like to share the core mechanic of the whole thing rather than just exemples of it in spells, so you can know what to look for.
I've thus taken the time to write down 5 simple rules for controling as a wizard, and I'll be expressing the whole in percentages so that its clearer.
#1: IF you can cast a spell that doesn't offer a save, do it
There are tons of exemples of this, from solid fog, to black tentacles, to wall spells. All of these offer massive control over your ennemies without allowing any kind of defense (except a grapple check for black tentacles). So before you even consider a spell for a level, remember, is there a good control effect without a save at this level.
#2: Always target the weak save
You won't always know what the weak save is but a lot of time you'll be able to deduce it. If you're going into a rogue guild, pack some nauseous cloud and glitterdust, if you're fighting a 30 foot tall monster, maybe use blistering radiance to target ref.
#3: Multiply opportunities
Here we are talking about either group fights, or effects that will cause a save or suck on multiple scenarios. A dazing produce flame slapped on an animal companion will allow him a chance to daze with every natural attack he has. A dazing wall of fire can be combined with telekinesis and bull rush for devastating effects. Let's not even talk about dazing ball lighting....
Consider the following scenario: A CR 6 ennemy, his will save is on average at +5, without buffs, so if you cast your glitterdust on him, assuming 22 intel (20 start +2 headband) and spell focus, your DC is 19, so he has a 35% chance to save agaisn't your effect. hey not bad!
Now consider 4 CR 6 ennemies, once again you cast glitterdust on them at the begining of the fight. The chance that all of them will successfully save is 1.5%....the chance 3 of them will save is 4.2%... the chance 2 of them will save is 12.25%.
In augmenting the number of variables in play, and the number of attempts at a negative effect you can stick on an ennemy, your chances at forging the battle towards a successful conclusion are greatly increased, in a worst case scenario you won't affect anyone, but if that happens, it's like rolling a nat 1 for a fighter, it happens. And there's also a fairly good chance you'll end the encounter straight up ;) (17.8% chance in this exemple!)
#4: Don't cast single target debuffs, and if you do, make sure it has a rider
Evil eye, malfortune, finger of death, these are all effects that will do SOMETHING if you cast it at an ennemy, weither he saves or not. You'll want to use those agaisn't bosses with high saves, or refer to point #1 and use a no save control.
#5: Cheat your DC's like there's no tommorow
Here we are talking about either positive modifiers to DC, or negative modifiers to the ennemy's save.
There's a couple of articles about this, as well as a paizo thread that I can't find at the moment.
http://taking10.blogspot.ca/2014/10/how-to-increase-spell-dcs-in-pathfinder .html
Read up on those, but know there are tons of ways to cheat spell DC's.
The king of those is obviously the exploiter wizard or the arcanist, as they get the ability to slap on +2 to DC's whenever they want.
The other side of this delightful medal is to lower ennemy's saves. One of the best ways to do this is intimimancy, on which there are several guides. You'd want one of your companions to do this though. Another way is to either throw a tanglefoot bag (to lower ref saves) or get the target sickened, or cursed.
Remember, if we look at percentages, the ability to make an opponent reroll is freaking golden, assuming the ennemy has a 50% chance to save vs your spell, rolling twice and taking the worse decreases his chances to 25%, netting you an effective +5 to your save DC's.
My current group is running dragon's demands, and we have an arcanist elf with 20 int start, a headband of intellect +2, spell focus enchantment and greater spell focus enchantment, the dreamspeaker racial trait, and we also have a frigid touch magus with enforcer and a cruel katana.
On a boss, in one round, the boss will be both shakened and sickened from the magus's assault, netting him -4 to saves, and will then suffer a save or suck such as slow or hold person with an effective success rate, lets say for a level 6 paladin vs our level 4 party (+5 base, +0 wis, +4 charisma, +2 resistance for a +10 total) at -4 he's at +6, the DC for Daze monster on this is (10+2 spell level+6 int+2 arcanist+2 spell focus greater spell focus = 22 DC) so our poor paladin, despite being the toughest save beast out there, will only have 25% chance to save.
Consider the witch now, with evil eye and cackle, and the same magus bff, paladin is at +6, she has evil eye and malfortune on, the save is now at +4, the witch's DC is lower at 20 though (22 int, hex at /2 level, ability focus assuming its allowed). The paladin has 25% chance to save again, but rolls twice, so his success chance is 6.25%....
So basically, cheating save DC's can trivialise encounters to a ridiculous degree (our above elven game the rogue complains because all he gets to do is coup de grace people)
Conclusion
In conclusion, I think you'll find controling a very rewarding endeavor and i suggest either a witch, an exploiter wizard or an arcanist as your first controller, and then watch the magic of statistical predictions unravel before your very eyes.
Because knowledge is power!
let me know what you think.