What counts as "the same source" for the stacking of effects?

[NopeDK]

This has been somewhat clarified before but I feel that it left something out.
I will use italics as reference to sections, paragraphs and sentences on the online prd.

The FAQ states that for the purposes of a single weapon, the enchantment Impact and Lead Blades do not stack, as the item is essentially under a permanent Lead Blades spell.
Core -> Magic -> Combining Magic Effects -> Same effect more than once in differing strengths

But what if there are multiple magical items that all use the same spell on the same wearer?
Let us reuse Impact from before, what if the wielder of an Impact weapon becomes the target of a Bull's Strength?
As the spell does not target the weapon but the wielder, you gain both bonuses. (I have never heard of it not been done this way). This means that magical items with a required spell does not infer that the wielder is under the spell as well for it to work.

Then what happens when you dual wield two Menacing weapons?
Following the previous question, it should stack as it is not the wielder that is under the effect of the spells but each item is subject to its own spell, and then the items each grant untyped bonuses, which should stack as per Core -> Magic -> Special Spell Effects -> Bonus Types -> last sentence but what I always encounter is GMs saying they would not stack "as they are the same source". But are they? It is two different weapons, which could have different enchantments and both having Menacing, the creation spell is not not inferred on the wielder so the sources are two different objects, both providing untyped bonuses.

Then what happens with identical items?
Would the previous weapons no longer stack if they are identically enchanted due to the "same source" part or do they not stack at all as the enchantment on the weapon actually does infer something on the wielder disallowing this?

What about two Rings of Tactical Precision? They both provide untyped bonuses, if the spell is not inferred on the player than they should stack but again most rule they do not. Why not? They are different objects, providing untyped bonuses to the wielder.

What I am looking for an official answer to is:
What counts as a "source" for the purposes of stacking?
Does an enchantment count the enchantment as a source for the wielder or only the object?
In extension: What about magical items, they are not spells but objects under a spell like the previous enchantments, is the item now a source for the wielder?

What I would expect:
Lead Blades and Impact do not stack as the enchantment is considered a source of an identical spell on the object. The enchantment is counted as a source for the object and not the wielder. Casting Bull's Strength on the wielder works normally as the enchantment does not infer the spell on the wielder, therefore it would be two Bull's Strengths affecting different targets (like Mass Bull's Strength).

Two Menacing weapons would stack due to the previous logic, the enchantment is a source for the object, not the wielder, and therefore using two of them would stack as they are untyped bonuses.

Two Rings of Tactical Precision would stack, again due to the previous logic, it is the rings that are the target of the spells, not the wielder and it should therefore stack, again due to untyped bonuses.

In any of the previous expectations where changed to a typed bonus, then all of them would not stack as you only take the highest bonus for a given type. The bonus to Profession (Soldier) from the rings would not stack as they are the same type.

[Name Violation]

They will not stack in a house
They will not stack on a blouse
They will not stack in a box
They will not stack on warlocks
They will not stack here or there
They will not stack anywhere
You can not get the same thing twice
If you could, it wouldn't be nice

[NopeDK]

So a character investing in two +1 Agile Flaming weapons get 1*Dex+1d6 / 0.5*Dex+1d6 but investing in two +1 Benevolent Menacing weapons makes one of them literally worthless as they now affect the wielder and not the weapon?

[Mathmuse]

Two identical sources work together just fine if the circumstances do not force anyone to figure out how they could stack. If you cast two Fireballs on two different rounds, their damage accumulates. If you create two Walls of Stone in two different locations, both walls stand.

Stacking or non-stacking is for when the two effects cannot be independent. Cast Greater Magic Weapon for a +2 bonus on a +1 shortsword, what happens? Do they stack for +3 or not stack for +2? Since both are enhancement bonuses, they do not stack. But if the character has a +1 shortsword in one hand and an unenchanted dagger in the other, and casts Greater Magic Weapon on the dagger, there is no reason to ask, "Do they stack?" The dagger gains a +2 enchancement bonus and the +1 shortsword is unaffected and stays a +1 shortsword.

Sometimes the same spell can even work wth itself. Cast Resist Energy to resist electricity 10 and cast Resist Energy to resist fire 10, and both effects happen. They are independent despite having the same source.
But cast Resist Energy twice, both to resist electricity 10, and they don't stack.

A Ring of Tactical Precision gives the wearer a +5 competence bonus on Profession (soldier) checks and can also give a teamwork feat. Two Rings of Tactical Precision with the same wearer are giving the same bonus to the same subject, so their effects have to combine and we have to ask, "Stack or not?" The answer is two competence bonuses do not stack. Two different ring-imbued teamwork feats are independent, so they would both apply. You could call this "stacking," but technically, they both work without having to stack.

[Claxon]

An important thing to understand is that spells required for a magic item are not really an indicator of effect at all.

Your lead blade / bull's strength example illustrates this. While lead blades is listed as the required spell for the effect to be created, the effect of it isn't remotely the same. One provides an enhancement bonus to strength, the other increases your weapon damage size category.

[NopeDK]

Mathmuse wrote:

Two different ring-imbued different feats are independent.

So you agree that typed bonuses do not stack (evident) and that the feats are independent. Now the big question, what about the untyped bonus?

Claxon wrote:

An important thing to understand is that spells required for a magic item are not really an indicator of effect at all.

I tried to use the example as a way of distinguishing sources. A better example would be, what happens if you cast Bull's Strength on the weapon if it were a viable target? It is now the same spell, like the FAQ, but different effects.

Anyways, I tried to ramble about spell, magic items and sources so you might understand where the question comes from.
Too often I find that tables rule against "stacking" items/effects, even in PFS which is one of the reasons I ask here.

This has also happened in a game where we had a Hunter dual-wielding Menacing and had the flanking feats with his companions he used as mount. It was ruled against him and that has sparked my hunt for an official clarification as I feel to much is lost in "it won't stack, it's the same source" while being different items giving untyped bonuses.

[Claxon]

You're question with regard to "what happen's if non-creatures were a viable target for bull's strength" doesn't really make sense. I'm sorry but if you could come up with a different example I might be able to provide more insight, but this is non-sense that I just can't begin to understand what logical connection you're trying to make.

To illustrate this:
Lets assume you are a barbarian with the Body Bludgeon Rage Power, which would allow you to use an enemy as a weapon. (Have you ever been so angry you used a m#$@*%!#&&*! to hit another m~~#+%&$&+!#?) Now what happens if that enemy is under the effects of Bull's Strength? Nothing. It doesn't affect anything you do, so it doesn't matter anyways.

If somehow you could wield a sword that had received the benefits of bull's strength it wouldn't do anything for you. It would improve the swords strength score, which doesn't figure into anything your character does.

A more analogous example is how a belt of giant's strength doesn't stack with bull strength because they both provide an enhancement bonus to strength. (The belt does happen to use bull's strength in it's construction but doesn't actually figure into whether or not the effects stack).

As for the menacing example, it's because it's a thing affecting the PC. And then it's the same exact thing, albeit from a different weapon, still affecting the same PC. So it doesn't stack.

Same source definitely includes (but is not limited to) "the same ability being applied to you at the same time".

Same Sources can include:
Same weapon property
Same spell
Same SLA

Basically if it has a name and you try to apply it to your character twice, it's the same source.

[NopeDK]

Okay, an example that should work:
What about an Anchoring Weapon that has Levitate cast on it?
Anchoring lists levitate as a construction spell but the spells have different effects.

I just don't get why two items conferring the same untyped bonus wouldn't stack. You invest the resources, the limitations are clearly stated in the descriptions and logically they should. Brandishing two Menacing weapons should be extra menacing, not irrelevant.

[Claxon]

As I said before, constructions spells are largely irrelevant.

You cast levitate on an anchoring weapon, and assuming it's not currently using it's ability to be stuck to a point in space it will levitate as according to the spell levitate. The abilities have nothing to do with one another. Stop focusing on construction requirements and simply look at what the effect is.

The reason two untyped bonuses from the two different items don't stack in the case of Menancing is because menacing is the source. Not the weapons themselves. And the question of "Is the bonus from menacing the same thing as the bonus from menacing", the answer has to be yes. So they don't stack.

[James Risner]

NopeDK wrote:

Anchoring Weapon that has Levitate

I just don't get why two items conferring the same untyped bonus wouldn't stack.

Because Anchoring Weapon does not equal Levitate.

It's why we have FAQ on untyped ability bonuses. The whole rule system is strongly against same source stacking. When you have two different abilities with different names and different ways they work both adding the same ability. It was felt the ability was the source, so an FAQ made it clear that two different abilities that both add Charisma are the same source (Charisma).

You don't need to "get" why, just understand that two menacing weapons are the same source because they both have the menacing property.

[HWalsh]

NopeDK wrote:

Okay, an example that should work:

What about an Anchoring Weapon that has Levitate cast on it?
Anchoring lists levitate as a construction spell but the spells have different effects.

I just don't get why two items conferring the same untyped bonus wouldn't stack. You invest the resources, the limitations are clearly stated in the descriptions and logically they should. Brandishing two Menacing weapons should be extra menacing, not irrelevant.

I think you are confusing source with type.

So here is how it works:

You can only have the highest bonus of a certain "type" save for rare cases where it says otherwise (see Dodge Bonus).

The spells used in the construction of a magical item do not matter at all.

You are specifically asking about Menacing.

Menacing increases the normal bonus from a flank by +2. Here is why stacking doesn't work here.

1. They are two untyped bonuses. Untyped is still a typed bonus.

2. They come from the same source. In this case the Menacing Magical Weapon Property. It doesn't matter if it is 2 weapons with Menacing, it is still from the same source, Menacing.

Impacting and Lead Blades do not "not" stack because Impacting uses Lead Blades in the construction. They do not stack because they specifically state they do not stack. Nothing, at all, should be inferred from that. The specific ability gives stacking a no. Simple as that.

[Quintain]

Quote:

Menacing increases the normal bonus from a flank by +2. Here is why stacking doesn't work here.

1. They are two untyped bonuses. Untyped is still a typed bonus.

2. They come from the same source. In this case the Menacing Magical Weapon Property. It doesn't matter if it is 2 weapons with Menacing, it is still from the same source, Menacing.

The confusion, I think, from Menacing comes from the weapon providing what looks like a bonus to the character and not to attacks from the weapon itself. This is *slightly* incorrect.

The bonus applying to all attacks and not just attacks from only that weapon is due to the nature of flanking and threatening, which are more like situational bonuses for melee in general. As a result, wielding two menacing weapons are redundant (and thus do not stack), as they provide the same bonus to the same situation -- flanking.

I will agree that the definitions of source are entirely ambiguous and situational and need clarification, to the point of the OP.

[NopeDK]

James Risner wrote:

It's why we have FAQ on untyped ability bonuses.

So here they clarified that an Ability Score bonus to a roll counts as a source. The other FAQ clarifies that the same effect (virtual size increase) is the same source.

HWalsh wrote:

Untyped is still a typed bonus.

Untyped is specifically not typed and stacks with all untyped bonuses, except same source.

What I want an official answer to is whether enchantments and magic items counts as sources.

What if two different allies use Menacing, again one of them would be void as the source is Menacing and conferred on all flanking allies, but invest in basically anything else and it works perfectly fine.

[Quintain]

Quote:

What if two different allies use Menacing, again one of them would be void as the source is Menacing and conferred on all flanking allies, but invest in basically anything else and it works perfectly fine.

Two different allies using menacing would not stack, just as if you received a bulls strength spell from two different wizards.

They are applying the same enhancement to the same situation.

[Derklord]

James Risner wrote:

You don't need to "get" why, just understand that two menacing weapons are the same source because they both have the menacing property.

I like to think of such stuff as a kind of subtype, i.e. I try to find the closes possible source, and treat that source as an unofficial bonus type. E.g. Divine Grace and whatever oracle ability don't stack because they're "charisma modifier bonuses". Two "manacing bonuses" thus also don't stack.

Maybe that helps.

HWalsh wrote:

Untyped is still a typed bonus.

Seriously? Like, really?

They don't stack because there's a special section in the rules that says
"Bonuses without a type always stack, unless they are from the same source." If your #1 was true, #2 wouldn't matter.

[James Risner]

NopeDK wrote:

other FAQ clarifies that the same effect (virtual size increase) is the same source.

HWalsh wrote:

Untyped is still a typed bonus.

Untyped is specifically not typed and stacks with all untyped bonuses, except same source.

What I want an official answer to is whether enchantments and magic items counts as sources.

That is because virtual size increases don't stack regardless of the source.

Also this FAQ directly handles your menacing question. Two banes don't stack, neither should two menacing.

[NopeDK]

Stacking effects wrote:

Spells that provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes usually do not stack with themselves.

General rule, multiple identical spells don't stack, from that it is deduced that a spell is a "source".

Continuation wrote:

More generally, two bonuses of the same type don't stack even if they come from different spells (or from effects other than spells; see Bonus Types, above).

Typed bonuses do not stack even from different spells. Here another "source" is mentioned, "effects other than spells". What does that encompass?

Bonus types wrote:

The important aspect of bonus types is that two bonuses of the same type don't generally stack.

Same as previous, typed bonuses don't stack.

Bonus types wrote:

Bonuses without a type always stack, unless they are from the same source.

And here we have that bonuses without a type (therefore being untyped) always stack, unless they originate from the same "source".

No where else in the entire Magic section is the term "source" clarified to be more than spells and "effects other than spells".

Do note that the "effects other than spells" is a continuation of the typed bonuses section, not a general statement.
This is the actual rule that two competence bonuses do not stack, no matter where they come from due to the "effects other than spells".

Remaining is only the untyped bonus section and the statement "unless they are from the same source". The closest you get to a "source" is the wording from the first quote: spells.
"Effects other than spells" are not mentioned for untyped bonuses, it is only for typed bonuses.

There is no actual explanation of what a "source" is which has necessitated the two FAQs to explain two circumstances, but what about all other circumstances?

To boil it to the most simple I can:
What constitutes a "source"?

[Quintain]

Quote:

To boil it to the most simple I can:
What constitutes a "source"?

To boil it to the most simple answer I can:

"It depends".

[NopeDK]

James Risner wrote:

Also this FAQ directly handles your menacing question. Two banes don't stack, neither should two menacing.

The last sentence in that FAQ clarifies that Bane should follow the ranger and fighter wording to only have the highest bonus.

If they clarified sources and stacking properly, they would not need to have 3 different FAQs explaining a very specific subset while leaving the rest unexplained.

[NopeDK]

Quintain wrote:

"It depends".

Which is the problem exactly.

[James Risner]

NopeDK wrote:

Stacking effects wrote:

Spells

General rule, multiple identical spells don't stack, from that it is deduced that a spell is a "source".

To boil it to the most simple I can:
What constitutes a "source"?

First, spells in the line encompass "spells and magical effects". Also there have been extraordinary effects clarified to be covered under those rules of stacking. See bashing (magical) doesn't stack with spiked (extraordinary).

What constitutes a source is two things that are the same.

I'm not sure when they wrote those various FAQ they understood it was all boiling down to not understanding the meaning of "source". It is also something that could be easily misunderstood if explained incorrectly.

[NopeDK]

James Risner wrote:

Also there have been extraordinary effects clarified to be covered under those rules of stacking. See bashing (magical) doesn't stack with spiked (extraordinary).

That FAQ has no impact here is it pertains to actual and effective size increases.

[s00pahFr0g]

I have a more specific case of this that I have a question about. I've got a Scaled Fist Monk 1/Lore Oracle 1/Flying Blade Swashbuckler 9 character that I've just started playing. Scaled Fist monk makes all monk abilities that go off wisdom instead go off charisma so the monk's AC bonus comes off charisma. The Lore Oracle with the Sidestep Secret Revelation replaces their dex to AC with cha to AC. Do these count as the same source? Hero lab is letting me do this but its making this character rather ridiculous. He worships desna and uses Desna's shooting star and I took noble scion of war as well as osyluth guile. The build as a whole gets charisma to AC twice, and a third time as a dodge bonus, cha to initiative, cha to att and dmg, and cha to saves due to swashbuckler. All of this works in hero lab but I know that is not a valid rules source.

[Darksol the Painbringer]

NopeDK wrote:

James Risner wrote:

Also there have been extraordinary effects clarified to be covered under those rules of stacking. See bashing (magical) doesn't stack with spiked (extraordinary).

That FAQ has no impact here is it pertains to actual and effective size increases.

Except the point is that they don't stack exactly the way other bonuses don't stack.

There's also a FAQ that says Temporary Hit Points don't stack, and cites the Bonus Stacking rules as a reason for them not stacking.

[James Risner]

s00pahFr0g wrote:

monk's AC bonus comes off charisma. The Lore Oracle with the Sidestep Secret Revelation replaces their dex to AC with cha to AC. Do these count as the same source?source.

Report that as a herolab bug. The Monk AC and the Lore Oracle Sidestep don't stack as it is two untyped Cha to AC bonuses that don't stack.

[Quintain]

James Risner wrote:

s00pahFr0g wrote:

monk's AC bonus comes off charisma. The Lore Oracle with the Sidestep Secret Revelation replaces their dex to AC with cha to AC. Do these count as the same source?source.

Report that as a herolab bug. The Monk AC and the Lore Oracle Sidestep don't stack as it is two untyped Cha to AC bonuses that don't stack.

I'm not so sure.

Normally, monk's armor class is calculated from wisdom and then dexterity modifies armor class normally (standard dex bonus to AC).

In your build, your monk uses charisma to calculate his normal armor class and then uses charisma again to give a bonus to armor just like dexterity normally would?

If this is the case, then it's legit. Mechanically, all it does is consolidate what would otherwise be two abilities into one. It just changes you from MAD to SAD.

The monk's AC bonus is different than the dex bonus to AC -- it applies at different times. It is a baseline AC value, as it applies a +1 per 4 levels to AC on top of the normal wisdom bonus to AC. Not really the same bonus -- they stack.

Moreover, the Monk's AC bonus ability is an (ex) ability, and the Sidestep Secret is (su). They aren't the same source.

Edit: However, from a strict technical standpoint, James Risner is likely correct.

I just checked an analogous situation with the zen archer (3rd level) and the guided enchant -- both shift attack bonus to wisdom for ranged weapons -- and even under hero lab these two abilities do not stack.

However, the build you have isn't really game-breaking as you trade off being SAD for AC instead of MAD -- and both Wis to AC and Dex to AC stack, replacing them both with CHA to AC doesn't seem to be game breaking.

Quote:

When unarmored and unencumbered, the monk adds his Wisdom bonus (if any) to his AC and his CMD. In addition, a monk gains a +1 bonus to AC and CMD at 4th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every four monk levels thereafter, up to a maximum of +5 at 20th level.

These bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks or when the monk is flat-footed. He loses these bonuses when he is immobilized or helpless, when he wears any armor, when he carries a shield, or when he carries a medium or heavy load.

Quote:

*Sidestep Secret (Su): Your innate understanding of the universe has granted you preternatural reflexes and the uncanny ability to step out of danger at the very last second. Add your Charisma modifier (instead of your Dexterity modifier) to your Armor Class and all Reflex saving throws. Your armor’s maximum Dexterity bonus applies to your Charisma instead of your Dexterity (see FAQ.)

FAQ: Does an oracle of lore with the sidestep secret revelation use his Charisma to calculate his CMD instead of his Dexterity? If he is flat-footed, does he lose his Charisma bonus to AC?

An oracle of lore with the sidestep secret revelation uses his Dexterity to calculate his CMD since no provision is made in the text to use his Charisma for that statistic. He does, however, lose his Charisma bonus to AC whenever he is flat-footed, since his Charisma modifier is being used in place of his Dexterity modifier.

[James Risner]

Quintain wrote:

I'm not so sure.

Let's assume all you said was relevant.

It's still two sources adding untyped Charisma to your AC. One from Monk and one from "Dex swap".

The nested source FAQ says that can't happen, so full stop it can't.

Could it before the nested ability FAQ? Yes to most/many. No from James Jacobs and others.

[Quintain]

James Risner wrote:

Quintain wrote:

I'm not so sure.

Let's assume all you said was relevant.

It's still two sources adding untyped Charisma to your AC. One from Monk and one from "Dex swap".

The nested source FAQ says that can't happen, so full stop it can't.

Could it before the nested ability FAQ? Yes to most/many. No from James Jacobs and others.

Right, but untyped bonuses from different sources do stack in most cases, do they not? So you have two sources adding a bonus that would normally stack.

Also, I did an edit stating that on the FAQ technicality, they do not stack -- even if they apply differently.

So the underlying answer to this build is whether you think that a untyped bonus from class A and an untyped bonus from class B are considered different sources if happen to use the same ability score or not.

I, personally, don't have an issue with them stacking, as it really isn't "broken" from a balance standpoint. It doesn't really change the numbers.

Hit this guy with CHA damage/drain and he is toast. Touch of Idiocy is this guy's bane.

[Quintain]

s00pahFr0g wrote:

I have a more specific case of this that I have a question about. I've got a Scaled Fist Monk 1/Lore Oracle 1/Flying Blade Swashbuckler 9 character that I've just started playing. Scaled Fist monk makes all monk abilities that go off wisdom instead go off charisma so the monk's AC bonus comes off charisma. The Lore Oracle with the Sidestep Secret Revelation replaces their dex to AC with cha to AC. Do these count as the same source? Hero lab is letting me do this but its making this character rather ridiculous. He worships desna and uses Desna's shooting star and I took noble scion of war as well as osyluth guile. The build as a whole gets charisma to AC twice, and a third time as a dodge bonus, cha to initiative, cha to att and dmg, and cha to saves due to swashbuckler. All of this works in hero lab but I know that is not a valid rules source.

I just did your build in hero lab, and there multiple bugs involved.

In the abilities tab, if you look at the mouse tool tip text, you'll see +A (Cha) and +A (Dex) and dodge bonus in there. Dex should be a 2nd Cha and the dodge bonuses from fighting defensively and osyluth's guile are not stacking. Also, the dodge value is bad and not applying Osyluth's guile properly. (I did a 18 charisma, and it only applied +5 as the dodge bonus -- it should be +6).

[James Risner]

Quintain wrote:

So the underlying answer to this build is whether you think that a untyped bonus from class A and an untyped bonus from class B are considered different sources if happen to use the same ability score or not.

The two sources stack but they can’t stack because both are sourced from Charisma so in the end they don’t stack. We know that is true from an explicit FAQ.

[Quintain]

James Risner wrote:

Quintain wrote:

So the underlying answer to this build is whether you think that a untyped bonus from class A and an untyped bonus from class B are considered different sources if happen to use the same ability score or not.

The two sources stack but they can’t stack because both are sourced from Charisma so in the end they don’t stack. We know that is true from an explicit FAQ.

By the FAQ, yes. Personally, I don't see a problem with it.

By the FAQ this build completely eliminates the monk ac bonus and a stat bonus to ac just because the source is a single stat vs multiple stats. It doesn't make it more powerful than a standard build.