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so here comes puny str 19 fighter level 2 with his +6 to hit and +9 damage (ABP - always be powerattacking) and big buff 23 str raging barbarian level 2 comes up behind him mad as heck with his +8 to hit and +12 damage (ABP) to slap the the fighter's ice cream out of his hand. The ice cream falls on an elf wizard's foot killing him instantly, because... elf wizard. This happens to be enough experience to boost the fighter and barbarian both to level 3 and the fighter AM MAD now too (he variant multiclassed barbarian). Both the fighter and barbarian are now +9 to hit and +12 damage.
The fighter takes a natural progression after this.
Weapon Specialization at 4
weapon training at 5
grabs greater weapon focus and switches out an old feat for improved critical at 8
another weapon specialization at 9
meanwhile the barbarian only gets power attack progression. He can take witch hunter to add another +1 damage at the same progression against spell casters but even then he's always short for damage
-2 at 4 weapon specialize
-3 at 5 weapon training
-4 at 9 weapon training
if something has spells/SLAs and the barb's got witch-hunter he's even at 4 and 8 but behind at 5,6,7,9 and 10 by increasing amounts.
in addition if the barb takes reckless abandon at 2 and weapon focus at 5 when the fighter gets weapon training he can stay at the same to hit rolls, but only if he takes both those. He can be ahead until 5 if he takes weapon focus before 5 but if he doesn't take weapon focus he'll be behind by one from 5 until sometime after greater rage
Defensively speaking he's better off
The fighter gets that +2 will from rage at lvl 3 too so the barbs got way better saves from the start.
The barbarian can get superstitious at 2nd level if he wants, and the earlist the fighter can get the advanced armor training feat is at 3. here's a breakdown of that by level assuming they take it as early as possible
lvl 1 fighter +0 barb +2
lvl 2 fighter +0 barb +4
lvl 3 fighter +3 barb +4
lvl 4 fighter +3 barb +5
lvl 5 fighter +3 barb +5
lvl 6 fighter +4 barb +5
lvl 7 fighter +4 barb +5
lvl 8 fighter +4 barb +6
lvl 9 fighter +4 barb +6
lvl 10 fighter +5 barb +6
the fighter is down 2 for 5 of those levels, down 1 for 4 and down 4 for 1 of them. The barbarian also hands down winds on fort and dex saves because superstitious applies to those and armed bravery applies to only will.
Fighter is top dog for DR though
The fighter gets the barbarian's uncanny dodge at 7, though the big thing at 7 is the barbarian gets DR 1 while the fighter can grab improved armor training armored juggernaut for DR 2 in heavy armor at the same level. The barbarian could be invulnerable to grab his DR early but the Fighter's DR stacks with Adamantine which you can start to get at lvl 8 (if you want to use half your wealth by level on that)
As for AC the barbarian if he's smart is taking AC hit's at power attack progression thanks to reckless abandon, which might be mitigated by beast totem if he's going that rout? (he should go that rout, whispers greater beast totem) His beast totem would only just keep up with his reckless abandon so he's basically only getting what he can buy for AC. The fighter gets to have full plate and it's getting better every couple levels by allowing more dexterity bonus.
At this point what I see going for the barbarian other than those saves is fast movement and trap sense.
wait wait wait what's that on the wind? It's levels 10, 11 and 12. For the barbarian 10, 11 and 12 spells pounce, greater rage, and come and get me. Starting level 20 the fighter is never going to catch up again. But Why did we have to wait this long?
nb4 a barbarian with VMC fighter doesn't get weapon training till 11, making it useless at lower levels.
Is there something I'm missing here? Are barbarians doomed to play second fiddle until they learn to strike a swinging sword from a warriors fist? I illustrated this so clearly because a lot of games don't get to level 12 and im sure many people who enjoy optimizing as much as me curse ourselves with having less fun by looking at the numbers and obsessing over "why didn't I play a VMC fighter?" while we wait for a come and get me that might never come
You didnt really explain it that well*, and many games stop around level 15. At that point many GM's stop enjoying the GM process.
Also Barbarians get things such as spell sunder and the rage power that can disarm traps. They also can have much better saves. As for DPR the difference in insignificant when both builds are two rounding enemies. A barbarian can take the power attack penalty to his attack roll and still hit depending on how its built. If it's actually built to have a higher AC then yeah the penalty to AC is not a bad idea.
*More on the point of you not explaining it well. Saying X is better isn't saying much. How much better is it, what is being giving up to get that much better? You would have done a better job by posting an actual builds.
You might also want to explain the stacking DR. DR tends to overlap, not stack unless a special abilities say otherwise.
As an example DR 5/Adamantine and DR 5/- means you take 5 points of damage from the attack not 10, unless I am misunderstanding you.
You didnt really explain it that well*, and many games stop around level 15. At that point many GM's stop enjoying the GM process.
Also Barbarians get things such as spell sunder and the rage power that can disarm traps. They also can have much better saves. As for DPR the difference in insignificant when both builds are two rounding enemies. A barbarian can take the power attack penalty to his attack roll and still hit depending on how its built. If it's actually built to have a higher AC then yeah the penalty to AC is not a bad idea.
*More on the point of you not explaining it well. Saying X is better isn't saying much. How much better is it, what is being giving up to get that much better? You would have done a better job by posting an actual builds.
You might also want to explain the stacking DR. DR tends to overlap, not stack unless a special abilities say otherwise.
As an example DR 5/Adamantine and DR 5/- means you take 5 points of damage from the attack not 10, unless I am misunderstanding you.
Thanks I guess I mean't fighter seems to me to do exactly what barbarian does, other than saves. Or to put it another way the fighter with VMC barbarian can be built to be exactly like the barbarian but better at all of those things.
If the barbarian takes spell sunder at low levels or he has to give up one of these things (saves, competitive to hit, pounce at 10) because of scarcity of slots.
I haven't seen the rage power that can disarm traps.
And the "armored juggernaut" is an "advanced armor training" option that explicitly allows stacking with adamantine armor but nothing else. so heavy adamantine armor gives DR3/- and this stacks with the DR2/- from armored juggernaut
I will try to respond to this later, don't have time now. But I feel like there are several things you're not looking at as to why it's not as simple as you're thinking.
I feel like you are making an awful lot of assumptions here. For example you assume the fighter can increase his armor via Dex enanchements which is not the norm (because those belts are costy and the fighter wants str over dex), besides Advanced Armor Training options (starting at 7th level) like armored juggernaut explicitly prevent the fighter from lowering the armor penalties to dex (if you take Armored Juggernaut at 7th you don't get to add an extra +1 to AC due to Armor Training lowering your armor penalty to dex).
That said, what would be the problem if a fighter (built with a lot of system mastery) could do better in SOME departments than a barbarian for some of the level progression? Keep in mind at lvl 10 such fighters cannot pounce while Barbarians can (because everyone and his dog takes Beast Totem when playing barb it seems) and that alone is a game changer at higher levels.
Barbarians can pounce. Combat won, fighter dead.
Barbarians can pounce. Combat won, fighter dead.
Fighter was an archer.
Barbarian never got a turn.
There's some unique rage powers, the reason to take barbarian is rage powers and 1/2 level dr. There's a rage power that gets extra effects on a dirty trick, or two attacks with two weapon fighting on a charge, or doing damage when you grapple with raging grappler.
So one of the major consideration is whether or not the vmc barbarian qualifies for extra rage power. Rage powers are, on average, better than feats. If the vmc barbarian can't take extra rage poower feat he is woefully behind a real barbarian.
While AC is nice, it is generally the least useful type of defense. And what I mean by that is that a character remains fully functional until HP hits 0, so 1 hp is the same as 200. And while it can be annoying to have to heal up after every combat, assuming you don't drop mid combat it just doesn't matter much. However, good saves are something the barbarian can excel at. A human barbarian with superstition and using FCB to increase it can have truly amazing saves, even compared to the fighter that picks up weapon training to get bonuses to will and reflex saves.
Assuming both characters are building towards two-handed melee weapons, pounce is a big bonus.
Invulnerable ragers get DR equal to half character level. It's basically the default barbarian, even though it's an archetype.
Actually, rereading your posts it seems your aware of a lot of the barbarians advantages, but you're undervaluing them IMO.
Sure, the fighter has a greater theoretical DPR because he'll get more damage per hit, but the barbarian can theoretically get a full attack each round, something the fighter can't do. Full attacks do way more for DPR than higher damage per hit. At higher levels when a barbarian has access to the ability to rage cycle he can use the rage power/feat (can't remember which) that allows you to add your con modifier to damage.
Barbarian has a lot of possible versatility which the fighter lacks with things like Spell Sunder. It's really an amazing power that makes barbarians (with superstition) amazing anticaster builds. Sunder their defensive magic off of them, and then proceed to destroy them with a full attack, while being well protected from their attacks due to high saves.
Not sure what you mean by harsher limit?
But the fact that you don't even start to get them until 11th level is a big deal. For many campaigns that's a majority of the game.
You also don't get Greater Rage until 19th level, which is essentially never for most campaigns.
And the DR you get from VMC is laughable unless you can stack it with something else.
Now, the thing is that the fighter only has to give up feats, but get a ton of bonus feats. And for a two-handed weapon fighter who doesn't need many bonus feats it's all gravy in the first place. So a fighter with VMC barbarian is probably much better off than the average fighter because they don't really need all the feats they have.
And for a two-handed weapon fighter who doesn't need many bonus feats it's all gravy in the first place.
Somebody does not know how to use all those feats to their advantage.
Most of my two-handed fighter builds are left standing there at 10'th level wishing they had 2-3 more feats. That's with every single feat used towards a specific purpose, with more feats available to advance those specific purposes at high level.
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And for a two-handed weapon fighter who doesn't need many bonus feats it's all gravy in the first place.Somebody does not know how to use all those feats to their advantage.
Most of my two-handed fighter builds are left standing there at 10'th level wishing they had 2-3 more feats. That's with every single feat used towards a specific purpose, with more feats available to advance those specific purposes at high level.
What are the 13ish feats at lv10 that you wish your two-handed fighter had? I'm curious to see this list, because the people saying you don't need many feats are pretty masterful at the system.
1. Power Attack
1. Shield Focus
2. Shield Brace
3. Weapon Focus - Nodachi
4. Weapon Specialization - Nodachi
5. AWT - Armed Bravery
6. AAT - Cut from the Air
7. Item Mastery - Teleportation
8. Dimensional Agility
9. Dimensional Assault
9. Abundant Tactics (taken as a weapon training choice)
10. Dimensional Dervish
Wish I had
- Improved Critical - Nodachi
- Smash from air
- Combat Reflexes
- Critical Focus
At higher level
- stunning critical
- blinding critical
- staggering critical
- greater weapon focus
- greater weapon specialization
- fighter's reflexes
- trained initiative
With human, I can fit Shield Brace + Nodachi at 1st level and pick up combat reflexes.
I have a cleave/vital strike build that is tighter on feats even without the teleporting pounce (not that it would have any use for pounce).
Yeah, Mutation Warrior Fighter with VMC Barbarian is scary-good. It can get pounce by 13th level with retraining, and rage round issues can be solved by taking the Extra Rage feat at 5th and 9th (the latter of which is retrained at 13th for Greater Beast Totem).
It can also Fly as early as 7th level via Discoveries, and can be competent in ranged combat as well thanks to Mutagens (or just a complete monster in melee; whatever the situation requires).
And that's not including Weapon Training goodies and better proficiencies, either.
The only thing a barbarian might have that a Fighter doesn't is Superstition scaling and Spell Sunder, and a few more HP and skills, but I would say some Fighter combinations are better than standard Barbarians, and just won't compare to AM BARBARIAN.
Yeah, Mutation Warrior Fighter with VMC Barbarian is scary-good. It can get pounce by 13th level with retraining, and rage round issues can be solved by taking the Extra Rage feat at 5th and 9th (the latter of which is retrained at 13th for Greater Beast Totem).
You build one thing to retrain it when the vmc "unlocks" rage powers at 11th level, then retrain some more.
This is powerful for sure but the "pay off" (Numerical pay off) is so far away I find such character highly unlikely to last that much in a real game (one that might end at level 10). Too much theorycrafting imo.
The theorycraft makes sense, but its biggest problems are requiring retraining to get its good options even sooner than if you didn't (Mutagen scaling and Rage Powers being the most problematic).
Some of its options don't require retraining or late game scaling though, such as flying by themselves at 7th level, and Mutagen plus Rage by 3rd level.
1. Power Attack
1. Shield Focus
2. Shield Brace
3. Weapon Focus - Nodachi
4. Weapon Specialization - Nodachi
5. AWT - Armed Bravery
6. AAT - Cut from the Air
7. Item Mastery - Teleportation
8. Dimensional Agility
9. Dimensional Assault
9. Abundant Tactics (taken as a weapon training choice)
10. Dimensional DervishWish I had
- Improved Critical - Nodachi
- Smash from air
- Combat Reflexes
- Critical FocusAt higher level
- stunning critical
- blinding critical
- staggering critical
- greater weapon focus
- greater weapon specialization
- fighter's reflexes
- trained initiativeWith human, I can fit Shield Brace + Nodachi at 1st level and pick up combat reflexes.
I have a cleave/vital strike build that is tighter on feats even without the teleporting pounce (not that it would have any use for pounce).
Most of those feats have absolutely nothing to do with wielding a two-handed weapon or being better at it. the whole dimensional line is basically to make up for a lack of pounce as is the item mastery. Cut from the Air and Follow ups are neat, but also nothing to do with wielding a two handed weapon. Shield Focus and Shield Brace are again neat, but also not particularly necessary either. They're nice to have but not game changers.
You've proven my point for me.
I feel like you are making an awful lot of assumptions here. For example you assume the fighter can increase his armor via Dex enanchements which is not the norm (because those belts are costy and the fighter wants str over dex), besides Advanced Armor Training options (starting at 7th level) like armored juggernaut explicitly prevent the fighter from lowering the armor penalties to dex (if you take Armored Juggernaut at 7th you don't get to add an extra +1 to AC due to Armor Training lowering your armor penalty to dex).
That said, what would be the problem if a fighter (built with a lot of system mastery) could do better in SOME departments than a barbarian for some of the level progression? Keep in mind at lvl 10 such fighters cannot pounce while Barbarians can (because everyone and his dog takes Beast Totem when playing barb it seems) and that alone is a game changer at higher levels.
First Advanced armor training the feat can be taken at every 3 levels, so The fighter can start getting one level after the barbarian.
The fighter on a 15 pb can max strength and get 14 dex giving him an edge with the first armor training. If he's got a greater point buy and starts with 16 dex he can use the feat advanced armor training rather than replacing his 7th level boost. that's without any stat items.
At level 10 the game changes completely around and the fighter basically stops having any chance to be as good as the barbarian i agree with that. What I'm saying is that the fighter is better than the barbarian in EVERY department (other than saves) not just one department from level 3 to level 10.
So one of the major consideration is whether or not the vmc barbarian qualifies for extra rage power. Rage powers are, on average, better than feats. If the vmc barbarian can't take extra rage poower feat he is woefully behind a real barbarian.
While AC is nice, it is generally the least useful type of defense. And what I mean by that is that a character remains fully functional until HP hits 0, so 1 hp is the same as 200. And while it can be annoying to have to heal up after every combat, assuming you don't drop mid combat it just doesn't matter much. However, good saves are something the barbarian can excel at. A human barbarian with superstition and using FCB to increase it can have truly amazing saves, even compared to the fighter that picks up weapon training to get bonuses to will and reflex saves.
Assuming both characters are building towards two-handed melee weapons, pounce is a big bonus.
Invulnerable ragers get DR equal to half character level. It's basically the default barbarian, even though it's an archetype.
Actually, rereading your posts it seems your aware of a lot of the barbarians advantages, but you're undervaluing them IMO.
Sure, the fighter has a greater theoretical DPR because he'll get more damage per hit, but the barbarian can theoretically get a full attack each round, something the fighter can't do. Full attacks do way more for DPR than higher damage per hit. At higher levels when a barbarian has access to the ability to rage cycle he can use the rage power/feat (can't remember which) that allows you to add your con modifier to damage.
Barbarian has a lot of possible versatility which the fighter lacks with things like Spell Sunder. It's really an amazing power that makes barbarians (with superstition) amazing anticaster builds. Sunder their defensive magic off of them, and then proceed to destroy them with a full attack, while being well protected from their attacks due to high saves.
I see what you're saying. If I didn't make it clear I believe that the barbarian gets better than the fighter starting with pounce. I believe a high level barbarian is way better at his job than the high level fighter (hitting things)
I also see what you're saying with superstition. It's even a tie in my opinion between picking reckless abandon and superstition for the fighter's 11th level rage power. It's just that saves aren't one of the main things im looking for in my big sword guy, they're great to have but making a saving throw isn't that exciting.And I also don't see how spell sunder makes much of a difference at low levels. Are there that many threatening ongoing spell effects at levels 6-9? all the castys get dispel magic at level 5 or 6 too anyways.
Does VMC Obsolete the barbarian compared to fighter? (levels 1-10)
No.
Yeah, Mutation Warrior Fighter with VMC Barbarian is scary-good. It can get pounce by 13th level with retraining, and rage round issues can be solved by taking the Extra Rage feat at 5th and 9th (the latter of which is retrained at 13th for Greater Beast Totem).
VMC barb counts as a barbarian of 1/2 his character levels for the purpose of qualifying for rage powers. He couldnt get pounce till level 20
Edit: and honestly that's what keeps the barbarian better at higher levels. If the fighter could get greater beast totem and come and get me than i'd probably have made a post about fighters being better at every level.
Most of those feats have absolutely nothing to do with wielding a two-handed weapon or being better at it.1. Power Attack
1. Shield Focus
2. Shield Brace
3. Weapon Focus - Nodachi
4. Weapon Specialization - Nodachi
5. AWT - Armed Bravery
6. AAT - Cut from the Air
7. Item Mastery - Teleportation
8. Dimensional Agility
9. Dimensional Assault
9. Abundant Tactics (taken as a weapon training choice)
10. Dimensional DervishWish I had
- Improved Critical - Nodachi
- Smash from air
- Combat Reflexes
- Critical FocusAt higher level
- stunning critical
- blinding critical
- staggering critical
- greater weapon focus
- greater weapon specialization
- fighter's reflexes
- trained initiativeWith human, I can fit Shield Brace + Nodachi at 1st level and pick up combat reflexes.
I have a cleave/vital strike build that is tighter on feats even without the teleporting pounce (not that it would have any use for pounce).
Most of those feats are making sure the character has the AC to survive being the center of attention.
the whole dimensional line is basically to make up for a lack of pounce as is the item mastery.
The dimensional line has the exact same cost as pounce. Three feats vs three rage powers. Pounce can be used more often, Dimensional Dervish is straight up more powerful.
Cut from the Air and Follow ups are neat, but also nothing to do with wielding a two handed weapon. Shield Focus and Shield Brace are again neat, but also not particularly necessary either. They're nice to have but not game changers.
The follow up, at 11th level, is the barbarian equivalent of Superstitious. The fighter can literally knock spells out of the air.
You've proven my point for me.
That you like barbarian rage powers but don't realize that fighters can burn feats for similar abilities?
That you don't care about character survival as part of your builds?
That DPR is the only number you look at during feat selection? (This particular build is only a few percentage points behind the Barb, and eventually pulls ahead with far better AC, all good saves, and the ability to lock down anything that does not die on round one.
At home with access to characters from real games.
Female oni-spawn tiefling fighter 11
N Medium outsider (native)
Init +6; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +16
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 35, touch 15, flat-footed 32 (+13 armor, +1 deflection, +3 Dex, +1 insight, +3 natural, +4 shield)
hp 100 (11d10+30)
Fort +11, Ref +8, Will +10 (+3 vs. fear); +4 vs. effects that cause you to lose your grip on weapons
Resist cold 5, electricity 5, fire 5
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft. (20 ft. in armor)
Melee +3 adamantine nodachi +20/+15/+10 (1d10+25/15-20)
Ranged +1 adaptive composite longbow +15/+10/+5 (1d8+6/×3)
Special Attacks weapon trainings (heavy blades +4, weapon mastery)
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 11th; concentration +10)
. . 1/day—alter self
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 20, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 8
Base Atk +11; CMB +13; CMD 31 (35 vs. disarm, 35 vs. sunder)
Feats Advanced Armor Training, Advanced Armor Training, Advanced Weapon Training, Advanced Weapon Training, Armor Of The Pit[ARG], Combat Reflexes, Cut From The Air, Improved Critical (nodachi), Power Attack, Shield Brace, Shield Focus, Smash From The Air, Weapon Focus (nodachi), Weapon Specialization (nodachi)
Traits indomitable faith, reactionary, vagabond child (urban)
Skills Acrobatics +3 (-1 to jump), Climb +6, Diplomacy +13, Disable Device +15, Disguise +1, Intimidate +15, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +9, Knowledge (local) +2, Knowledge (planes) +2, Perception +16, Ride +4, Survival +4, Swim +6; Racial Modifiers +2 Disguise, +2 Intimidate
Languages Abyssal, Common, Elven
SQ armor training 3, doubt, prehensile tail[ARG]
Combat Gear oil of bless weapon (2), potion of cure light wounds (4), potion of fly, potion of protection from evil, acid (5), alchemist's fire, antiplague[APG], antitoxin, liquid ice[APG], oil (5), thunderstone (2); Other Gear +2 dragonhide full plate, +1 shield spikes dragonhide heavy steel shield, +1 adaptive composite longbow, +3 adamantine nodachi[UC], arrows (50), amulet of natural armor +1, belt of giant strength +2, cape of free will +2/+3[MA], cracked dusty rose prism ioun stone, dusty rose prism ioun stone, eyes of the eagle, gloves of dueling[APG], handy haversack, ring of protection +1, hammer, piton (10), silk rope (50 ft.), thieves' tools, trail rations (10), 3,565 gp, 5 sp
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Advanced Weapon Training You are specially trained to use your weapon skills in new ways.
Prerequisites: Fighter level 5th, weapon training class feature.
Benefit: Select one advanced weapon training option, applying it to one fighter weapon group you h
Advanced Weapon Training You are specially trained to use your weapon skills in new ways.
Prerequisites: Fighter level 5th, weapon training class feature.
Benefit: Select one advanced weapon training option, applying it to one fighter weapon group you h
Armed Bravery (+3/+6) (Ex) Add bravery bonus to will save, Intim. DC to demoralize you increases by amount shown.
Armor Specialization +2 (Full plate) (Ex) Increase armor bonus of chosen armor.
Armor Training 3 (Ex) Worn armor -3 check penalty, +3 max DEX.
Armored Master (Ex) Gain an armor mastery or shield mastery feat.
Combat Reflexes (4 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Cut from the Air AoO: Stop ranged attacks against you or an adjacent target
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white only).
Doubt -4 for an hour on any skill or ability check after you fail that type of check
Energy Resistance, Cold (5) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Cold attacks.
Energy Resistance, Electricity (5) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Electricity attacks.
Energy Resistance, Fire (5) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Fire attacks.
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Prehensile Tail Your tail can retrieve small objects on your person as a swift action.
Shield Brace Can use 2 handed spear/polearm with shield, but take the ACP of shield as pen to attack.
Smash from the Air Cut from the Air can be used against massive ranged weapons and ranged attacks from spells
Versatile Training (Weapon Training [Blades, Heavy] +4) (Ex) The fighter can use his base attack bonus in place of his ranks in two skills of his choice that are associated with the fighter weapon group he has chosen with this option (see below). The fighter need not be wielding an associated weapon to use thi
Weapon Mastery (Ex) The fighter gains a weapon mastery feat (see pages 20–23) as a bonus feat, even when not wielding a weapon from the appropriate weapon group. He must meet all of the feat’s prerequisites.
Weapon Training (Blades, Heavy) +4 (Ex) +4 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Heavy Blades
Female human (Azlanti) fighter 11/Champion 1
CN Medium humanoid (human)
Init +3; Senses Perception +2
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 25, touch 12, flat-footed 24 (+12 armor, +1 deflection, +1 Dex, +1 natural)
hp 108 (11d10+38)
Fort +12, Ref +11, Will +11 (+3 vs. fear); +4 vs. effects that cause you to lose your grip on weapons
Defensive Abilities hard to kill
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee crimson rain +28 (6d4+90/19-20/×4)
Special Attacks mythic power (5/day, surge +1d6), weapon trainings (heavy blades +4, warrior spirit)
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 25, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 10
Base Atk +11; CMB +15; CMD 30 (34 vs. disarm, 34 vs. sunder)
Feats Advanced Weapon Training, Advanced Weapon Training, Cleave, Cleaving Finish[UC], Furious Focus[APG], Great Cleave, Improved Critical (scythe), Improved Vital Strike, Power Attack, Vital Strike[M], Weapon Focus (scythe), Weapon Specialization (scythe), Weapon Trick (two-handed Weapons)
Traits indomitable faith, reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +2, Climb +9, Fly +1, Handle Animal +4, Intimidate +14, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +13, Perception +2, Survival +6, Swim +10
Languages Azlanti, Common
SQ armor training 3, fleet charge[MA], legendary item[MA], legendary power, legendary surge, mythic bond
Combat Gear oil of bless weapon (5), potion of enlarge person (5), potion of fly; Other Gear +3 Gray Maiden plate, crimson rain, amulet of natural armor +1, belt of giant strength +4, cloak of resistance +3, gloves of dueling[APG], ring of protection +1, masterwork backpack[APG], 44 gp
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Advanced Weapon Training You are specially trained to use your weapon skills in new ways.
Prerequisites: Fighter level 5th, weapon training class feature.
Benefit: Select one advanced weapon training option, applying it to one fighter weapon group you h
Advanced Weapon Training You are specially trained to use your weapon skills in new ways.
Prerequisites: Fighter level 5th, weapon training class feature.
Benefit: Select one advanced weapon training option, applying it to one fighter weapon group you h
Armed Bravery (+3/+6) (Ex) Add bravery bonus to will save, Intim. DC to demoralize you increases by amount shown.
Armor Training 3 (Ex) Worn armor -3 check penalty, +3 max DEX.
Cleave If you hit a foe, attack an adjacent target at the same attack bonus but take -2 AC.
Cleaving Finish Make additional attack if opponent is knocked out
Fighter's Reflexes (Weapon Training [Blades, Heavy] +4) (Ex) While not denied Dex bonus to AC, add training bonus to Reflex saves.
Fleet Charge (Ex) As a swift action, use 1 power to move speed & attack (+1 bonus, bypass all DR).
Furious Focus If you are wielding a weapon in two hands, ignore the penalty for your first attack of each turn.
Hard to Kill (Ex) Automatically stabilize when dying, and only die at neg Con x 2.
Legendary Power (2/day) All legendary items contain a pool of power - at least two uses that recharge each day. This power is called legendary power, and it works differently than mythic power. Any creature bearing the item can expend the items uses of legendary power, whet
Legendary Surge (+1d6 to Attack Rolls - All, Combat Maneuver Checks) All legendary items have a legendary surge ability, similar to a mythic character's surge ability (see page 170). It can be used only on specific rolls or checks based on the nature or purpose of the legendary item - see the Legendary Surge sidebar o
Mythic Bond A legendary item is typically bonded to a single mythic creature. Others can pick up and use a legendary item for its basic functions (like hitting a foe with a legendary mace), but only the creature bonded to the item can utilize it fully.
A myth
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Surge (1d6) (Su) Use 1 power to increase any d20 roll by the listed amount.
Vital Strike [Mythic] Vital Strike multiplies dam bonus by 2, 3, or 4.
Warrior Spirit +4 (Weapon Training [Blades, Heavy] +4 [Ex], 5/day) (Su) Standard action, add enhance bon or item powers for 1 min.
Weapon Training (Blades, Heavy) +4 (Ex) +4 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Heavy Blades
Weapon Trick (Two-Handed Weapons) You may perform weapon tricks with the chosen weapon type.
(Yes, I know, A greatsword with Gorums's divine fighting style would be better, as would Dwarf for access to Cleave Through.)
Most of those feats have absolutely nothing to do with wielding a two-handed weapon or being better at it.1. Power Attack
1. Shield Focus
2. Shield Brace
3. Weapon Focus - Nodachi
4. Weapon Specialization - Nodachi
5. AWT - Armed Bravery
6. AAT - Cut from the Air
7. Item Mastery - Teleportation
8. Dimensional Agility
9. Dimensional Assault
9. Abundant Tactics (taken as a weapon training choice)
10. Dimensional DervishWish I had
- Improved Critical - Nodachi
- Smash from air
- Combat Reflexes
- Critical FocusAt higher level
- stunning critical
- blinding critical
- staggering critical
- greater weapon focus
- greater weapon specialization
- fighter's reflexes
- trained initiativeWith human, I can fit Shield Brace + Nodachi at 1st level and pick up combat reflexes.
I have a cleave/vital strike build that is tighter on feats even without the teleporting pounce (not that it would have any use for pounce).
Most of those feats are making sure the character has the AC to survive being the center of attention.
the whole dimensional line is basically to make up for a lack of pounce as is the item mastery.The dimensional line has the exact same cost as pounce. Three feats vs three rage powers. Pounce can be used more often, Dimensional Dervish is straight up more powerful.
Cut from the Air and Follow ups are neat, but also nothing to do with wielding a two handed weapon. Shield Focus and Shield Brace are again neat, but also not particularly necessary either. They're nice to have but not game changers.The follow up, at 11th level, is the barbarian equivalent of Superstitious. The fighter can literally knock spells out of the air.
You've proven my point for me.That you like barbarian rage powers but don't realize that fighters can burn feats for similar abilities?
That you don't care about character survival as part of your builds?
That DPR is the...
The lack of two-handed specific feats is kind of my point too. The fighter has weapon specialization/greater weapon specialization to boost his damage alongside weapon training. All the barbarian has to boost his damage is power attack
Archers have deadly aim point blank shot, rapid shot, manyshot, clustered shot
They also need things like precise shot and point blank master to get up to par with two handed fighter on fighting people who are next to them/next to other people
the two weapon fighter gets improved two weapon fighting, greater two weapon fighting, double slice, two weapon rend,
they also has to take two weapon fighting to be able to hit anyone at all
All of these feats to increase power because up front the two-handed fighter gets his strength bonus half again. That's what he means by feat intensive. All that other stuff is bonus, stuff you get to pick because you're not stuck picking the next in your feat chain to stay viable
Wait, how are you cutting spells out of the air again?
Wait, how are you cutting spells out of the air again?
Smash from the Air works on stuff like rays, any ranged spell that has an attack roll
Wait, how are you cutting spells out of the air again?Smash from the Air works on stuff like rays, any ranged spell that has an attack roll
Oh hey, neat! Thanks for that. You used to need mythic rules to do stuff like that.
the two weapon fighter gets improved two weapon fighting, greater two weapon fighting, double slice, two weapon rend,
they also has to take two weapon fighting to be able to hit anyone at allAll of these feats to increase power because up front the two-handed fighter gets his strength bonus half again. That's what he means by feat intensive. All that other stuff is bonus, stuff you get to pick because you're not stuck picking the next in your feat chain to stay viable
Pepper is the build you want to look at then for feats that don't really work for anything except a two-handed build.
Combining Cleave and Vital strike is pointless for anything except a two-handed weapon. And even a fighter does not have enough feats to fully maximize cleave.
I see what you're saying. If I didn't make it clear I believe that the barbarian gets better than the fighter starting with pounce. I believe a high level barbarian is way better at his job than the high level fighter (hitting things)
I also see what you're saying with superstition. It's even a tie in my opinion between picking reckless abandon and superstition for the fighter's 11th level rage power. It's just that saves aren't one of the main things im looking for in my big sword guy, they're great to have but making a saving throw isn't that exciting.
And I also don't see how spell sunder makes much of a difference at low levels. Are there that many threatening ongoing spell effects at levels 6-9? all the castys get dispel magic at level 5 or 6 too anyways.
So, the thing is at levels 1 to 10 (where you're talking about) the fighter with VMC barbairan only gets rage and uncanny dodge. Now, don't get me wrong, rage is pretty awesome. But he doesn't have any rage powers, and rage powers are what make up the majority of a barbarians awesome.
At low levels there aren't a lot of super powerful spell effects that need to be sundered, but when you can it's super useful.
At the end the day you're basically comparing a normal fighter to a normal barbarian. Which is better? The fighter probably deals more damage, but doesn't have the same sort of interesting options the barbarian can get, IMO.
Most of those feats are making sure the character has the AC to survive being the center of attention.
Quote:
the whole dimensional line is basically to make up for a lack of pounce as is the item mastery.
The dimensional line has the exact same cost as pounce. Three feats vs three rage powers. Pounce can be used more often, Dimensional Dervish is straight up more powerful.Quote:
Cut from the Air and Follow ups are neat, but also nothing to do with wielding a two handed weapon. Shield Focus and Shield Brace are again neat, but also not particularly necessary either. They're nice to have but not game changers.
The follow up, at 11th level, is the barbarian equivalent of Superstitious. The fighter can literally knock spells out of the air.Quote:
You've proven my point for me.
That you like barbarian rage powers but don't realize that fighters can burn feats for similar abilities?That you don't care about character survival as part of your builds?
That DPR is the only number you look at during feat selection? (This particular build is only a few percentage points behind the Barb, and eventually pulls ahead with far better AC, all good saves, and the ability to lock down anything that does not die on round one.
AC is a silly game. Especially at high levels too many things can target things other than regular AC. The fighter definitely has better AC hands down, but is probably the least important defense at high levels compared to saves or touch AC. And with ghost rager power you increase your touch AC, which is amazing.
Dimensional Dervish is theoretically more powerful, but the limited uses per day make it far worse in my opinion. It's cool you can dimension door, it's a great utility power. But it's combat usage is very limited.
Cut from the Air is cool, as is Smash from the Air. But isn't a substitute for strong saves. And is also something the barbarian could pick up if they choose (though they need the one feat that lets them count as having weapon training).
I realize barbarians can burn feats to try to replicate things barbarians can do, they just don't do it as well IMO.
I do care about character survival, I actually think the barbarian is more survivable (just not on AC). The fighter actually has higher damage per hit then the barbarian. I think the barbarian is a better rounded character with access to more interesting abilities and feel the fighter is trying to spend feats to replicate what a barbarian can do with rage powers, but that those feats miss the mark.
AC is a silly game. Especially at high levels too many things can target things other than regular AC. The fighter definitely has better AC hands down, but is probably the least important defense at high levels compared to saves or touch AC. And with ghost rager power you increase your touch AC, which is amazing.
Yea, about that.
1. AC, even at higher level, is the most frequently targeted defense.2. Armed Bravery is addressing will saves.
3. The wish list item Fighter's Reflexes is reflex saves.
4. Smash from the Air all but negates ranged touch attacks.
At 11+, anything wanting to hit with a touch attack is going to have to do so in melee, and that is the fighter's playground.
Dimensional Dervish is theoretically more powerful, but the limited uses per day make it far worse in my opinion. It's cool you can dimension door, it's a great utility power. But it's combat usage is very limited.
At the level presented (10) it is 5/day, and it continues to scale up to 9/day. At four per day it gets the fighter into melee range as a swift action a number of times equal to the recommended number of encounters/day. The smart fighter will only use against challenging encounters/spellcasters. At higher levels, it can be used more than once/encounter without exhausting and allows. Dimensional Dervish allows for movement before, during, and after a full attack.
Cut from the Air is cool, as is Smash from the Air. But isn't a substitute for strong saves. And is also something the barbarian could pick up if they choose (though they need the one feat that lets them count as having weapon training).
You've completely missed the point of Smash from the Air. It does not replace saves, those come from Armed Bravery + Fighter's Reflexes. Smash from the Air is all about negating ranged touch attacks (and not just by adding a few points to touch AC, The Mirrored property does that).
Yes the barbarian can take the feat chain for Smash from the Air, but he has far fewer feats with which to make that choice and it costs him more feats to do so.
Claxon wrote:
AC is a silly game. Especially at high levels too many things can target things other than regular AC. The fighter definitely has better AC hands down, but is probably the least important defense at high levels compared to saves or touch AC. And with ghost rager power you increase your touch AC, which is amazing.
Yea, about that.1. AC, even at higher level, is the most frequently targeted defense.
2. Armed Bravery is addressing will saves.
3. The wish list item Fighter's Reflexes is reflex saves.
4. Smash from the Air all but negates ranged touch attacks.
At 11+, anything wanting to hit with a touch attack is going to have to do so in melee, and that is the fighter's playground.Quote:
Dimensional Dervish is theoretically more powerful, but the limited uses per day make it far worse in my opinion. It's cool you can dimension door, it's a great utility power. But it's combat usage is very limited.
At the level presented (10) it is 5/day, and it continues to scale up to 9/day. At four per day it gets the fighter into melee range as a swift action a number of times equal to the recommended number of encounters/day. The smart fighter will only use against challenging encounters/spellcasters. At higher levels, it can be used more than once/encounter without exhausting and allows. Dimensional Dervish allows for movement before, during, and after a full attack.Quote:
Cut from the Air is cool, as is Smash from the Air. But isn't a substitute for strong saves. And is also something the barbarian could pick up if they choose (though they need the one feat that lets them count as having weapon training).
You've completely missed the point of Smash from the Air. It does not replace saves, those come from Armed Bravery + Fighter's Reflexes. Smash from the Air is all about negating ranged touch attacks (and not just by adding a few points to touch AC, The Mirrored property does that).Yes the barbarian can take the feat chain for Smash from the Air, but he has far fewer feats with which to make that choice and it costs him more feats to do so.
AC is the most targeted defense, but also the least relevant since as long as you have HP greater than 0 it doesn't remove your character's ability to perform at all.
Armed Bravery can address will saves, it's still worse than a human barbarian with superstition and the FCB. Same with Reflex saves.
A barbarian can use pounce every round, assuming there's nothing preventing charging. Every time the barbarian needs to switch opponents (which is generally going to be every round since a full attack is usually enough to kill any level appropriate enemy).
As for Smash from the Air and feats...the barbarian doesn't have much things they really need to spend feats on. I will give you the Fighter Absolutely does this better, but it's also against rays which generally just deal HP damage.
HP damage is the least scary thing that can happen in game. Will saves are the scariest. Fort saves kill you, will saves kill your friends.
I've been using the wound threshold rules since they were released, because that whole "fine until 0 hp" thing always bugged me.
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I've thought about it, but I'm hesitant to introduce anything that makes rocket tag even more prevalent.
I see what you're saying. If I didn't make it clear I believe that the barbarian gets better than the fighter starting with pounce. I believe a high level barbarian is way better at his job than the high level fighter (hitting things)
I also see what you're saying with superstition. It's even a tie in my opinion between picking reckless abandon and superstition for the fighter's 11th level rage power. It's just that saves aren't one of the main things im looking for in my big sword guy, they're great to have but making a saving throw isn't that exciting.
And I also don't see how spell sunder makes much of a difference at low levels. Are there that many threatening ongoing spell effects at levels 6-9? all the castys get dispel magic at level 5 or 6 too anyways.So, the thing is at levels 1 to 10 (where you're talking about) the fighter with VMC barbairan only gets rage and uncanny dodge. Now, don't get me wrong, rage is pretty awesome. But he doesn't have any rage powers, and rage powers are what make up the majority of a barbarians awesome.
At low levels there aren't a lot of super powerful spell effects that need to be sundered, but when you can it's super useful.
At the end the day you're basically comparing a normal fighter to a normal barbarian. Which is better? The fighter probably deals more damage, but doesn't have the same sort of interesting options the barbarian can get, IMO.
Other than spell sunder what are these rage powers?
you have 5, or 9 if you include your feats
You want pounce at ten though right? so that's 2 or 6 with feats
If you want to spell sunder at low levels you're using them all plus 1 of your feats, leaving you with 3 feats.
but the number you get isn't really what i'm interested in arguing rn, I just want to know what the cool low level rage powers are.
the two weapon fighter gets improved two weapon fighting, greater two weapon fighting, double slice, two weapon rend,
they also has to take two weapon fighting to be able to hit anyone at allAll of these feats to increase power because up front the two-handed fighter gets his strength bonus half again. That's what he means by feat intensive. All that other stuff is bonus, stuff you get to pick because you're not stuck picking the next in your feat chain to stay viable
Pepper is the build you want to look at then for feats that don't really work for anything except a two-handed build.
Combining Cleave and Vital strike is pointless for anything except a two-handed weapon. And even a fighter does not have enough feats to fully maximize cleave.
Edited because I realized it's the build you posted before.
after getting power attack and cleave a barbarian could only get 3 of those and would limit himself to 2 ragepower options by using none of his feats on extra rage power if he wanted pounce at lvl 10.
Extra attacks are absolutely the best kind of extra damage though. Improved cleaving finish could be amazing paired with come and get me.
Dimensional Dervish is theoretically more powerful, but the limited uses per day make it far worse in my opinion. It's cool you can dimension door, it's a great utility power. But it's combat usage is very limited.At the level presented (10) it is 5/day, and it continues to scale up to 9/day. At four per day it gets the fighter into melee range as a swift action a number of times equal to the recommended number of encounters/day. The smart fighter will only use against challenging encounters/spellcasters. At higher levels, it can be used more than once/encounter without exhausting and allows. Dimensional Dervish allows for movement before, during, and after a full attack.
How the hoot are you getting 5 uses per day? Item mastery gets you max 3. Once at 8th, once at 14th, once at 20th. You can't even increase the daily uses with abundant tactics because it's not a combat feat.
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I've been using the wound threshold rules since they were released, because that whole "fine until 0 hp" thing always bugged me.
Goku's power level doesn't go down when he gets punched. HP is all about experience and rolling with the punches. A commoner who rolled an 8 on his damage roll with his spear got an 8 on everyone who doesn't have some kind of damage absorbing hide (DR)
level 10 fighter takes 8 damage, level 1 wizard takes 8 damage, Tiger Takes 8 damage, Storm Giant takes 8 damage.The difference between a level 1 wizard and a level 10 fighter, or even a level 1 fighter, is combat experience
The wizard feels the spear penetrating his arm and all his muscles tense. The only pain he's ever felt is his brother punching him in the arm and tensing seemed to help with that pain. Tensing against the spear though only helps it jab in deeper. The wizard feels another sharp pain as the spear is pulled out. He see's blood. His blood. He faints going unconscious at the sight of it.
That same spear attack against the fighter goes a littler differently. The fighter has been sparring for years. He knows that when that spear hits him he's got to loosen up and let it push him back otherwise a lucky hit from a stronger person might run him right through. The tip of the spear pierces his arm and he staggers backwards before it can go too deep. Sparring weapons dont pierce flesh though and this pain puts him off guard. If he takes another hit like that all the adrenaline rushing to his head might just make him pass out.
That same spear attack against a level 10 barbarian. The barbarian is in the heat of his rage giving him unnatural combat instincts. The spear comes his way. He isn't fast enough to dodge completely but it barely grazes his arm as his body memory kicks in and he rolls with the spear as if it were the same as the hundred spears that have struck that spot before. His callused skin creates a resistance for the spear reducing it's effectiveness. He also knows that if he yells loudly or clenches his teeth right as it hits he wont feel the pain till later.
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Okay.
Okay.
Well that's just, like, my opinion, man.
Heavy weight boxers. They get punched for hours, yet every one of those hits might be deadly if not rolled with or actively absorbed.
All combat experience.
Most of my two-handed fighter builds are left standing there at 10'th level wishing they had 2-3 more feats. That's with every single feat used towards a specific purpose, with more feats available to advance those specific purposes at high level.
So long as you're playing straight fighter (human), take focused study racial trait. Use the fighter retraining to retrain skill focus at 4, 8, and 16th level.
Additionally, if your builds can stand a dip, untrained monk gives you two bonus feats
So dipping monk at 11 would let you retrain at 13, 17.
Racial trait Shadowhunter is an upgrade along the same lines, trading slower start for late benefit.
Half orcs can accomplish the same by taking Shaman's apprentice.
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Most of my two-handed fighter builds are left standing there at 10'th level wishing they had 2-3 more feats. That's with every single feat used towards a specific purpose, with more feats available to advance those specific purposes at high level.So long as you're playing straight fighter (human), take focused study racial trait. Use the fighter retraining to retrain skill focus at 4, 8, and 16th level.
Additionally, if your builds can stand a dip, untrained monk gives you two bonus feats
So dipping monk at 11 would let you retrain at 13, 17.
fighter's feat retraining is only for the combat feats you gain via fighter.
Also things that give you specific feats, like focus studied, can only be retrained to that same feat. Meaning you can go skill focus climb to skill focus swim via retraining, but you couldn't go skill focus climb to weapon focus.
Okay.Well that's just, like, my opinion, man.
I enjoyed reading it.
When it comes to pounce, I'd just add: Ultimate Wilderness has a feat chain to gain totem rage powers without being a barbarian. This includes the option of greater beast totem at BAB 13 - with a feat tax (Athletic), some ability score requirements (Str 17, Dex 13, Wis 13), the need to be nonlawful and the restriction to natural attacks for pounce. You can use it "only" 13 + Con mod rounds per day and it requires your swift action to start, but that I'd consider minor issues.
The feat chain can be found at d20PFSRD: Totemic Initiate -> Totemic Disciple -> Totemic Master
Okay.Well that's just, like, my opinion, man.I enjoyed reading it.
When it comes to pounce, I'd just add: Ultimate Wilderness has a feat chain to gain totem rage powers without being a barbarian. This includes the option of greater beast totem at BAB 13 - with a feat tax (Athletic), some ability score requirements (Str 17, Dex 13, Wis 13), the need to be nonlawful and the restriction to natural attacks for pounce. You can use it "only" 13 + Con mod rounds per day and it requires your swift action to start, but that I'd consider minor issues.
The feat chain can be found at d20PFSRD: Totemic Initiate -> Totemic Disciple -> Totemic Master
just that this chain limits the pounce to only natural attacks.
If you gain the pounce ability this way, you can make only natural attacks using your pounce ability.
so it's a lot less good from here for most people