Mysterious Stranger Grit


Rules Questions


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

I can't seem to find anyone talking about this, so has anyone noticed that the Mysterious Stranger's Grit pool is broke as hell?

Mysterious Stranger wrote:
Grit (Ex): A mysterious stranger is a force to be reckoned with. Instead of using her Wisdom to determine the number of grit points she gains at the start of each day, she uses Charisma. This ability works in all other ways like the gunslinger’s grit class feature.

That means you use your CHA to determine how much you get each day, but your pool itself is still WIS-based. Is this on purpose?

EDIT: The Buccaneer AT also has the same wording, so it's similarly borked.


huh that is odd. if i get what you are saying..... that your max grit pool is still limited by your wis mod?


I read it as substituting Cha for Wis in all ways related to Grit. That's the only sensible way to read it.


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Sure, it's sensible, but it's not how it's actually written. If they wanted it to work like that, they should have made it something like "A mysterious stranger uses Charisma instead of Wisdom when determining how much grit she gains at the start of each day and her maximum amount of grit points."


Kristal Moonhand wrote:
Sure, it's sensible, but it's not how it's actually written. If they wanted it to work like that, they should have made it something like "A mysterious stranger uses Charisma instead of Wisdom when determining how much grit she gains at the start of each day and her maximum amount of grit points."

agreed. this would help make it idiot proof, especially for rigid GM's

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Your GM is in charge of interpreting how it’s written. So ask your GM. The best interpretation that seems to be the intent is you now use cha for all wis things in your grit. This is the first time I’ve noticed your interpretation of MS grit being off that way.


Asking a DM doesn't do much good in organized play settings where the games are run purely by RAW.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Kristal Moonhand wrote:
Asking a DM doesn't do much good in organized play settings where the games are run purely by RAW.

Ask a GM is exactly how things work in PFS and there is no concept of one size fits all “RAW” as described by PFS leadership. RAW from a PFS perspective is don’t change the scenarios to make them easier or harder and don’t change rules from published faq. Has nothing to do with “ask your GM how this rule works” which is how it works even if you don’t read it that way.


Did I say PFS? I don't recall saying PFS...


Kristal Moonhand wrote:
Did I say PFS? I don't recall saying PFS...

You said:

Quote:
Asking a DM doesn't do much good in organized play settings where the games are run purely by RAW.

Which around here means PFS.


Unlike certain writers at Paizo, I write what I mean, and I mean what I write. And the fact remains that, from a purely RAW viewpoint, Mysterious Stranger and Buccaneer only change one part of grit, and that's how much grit you gain at the beginning of the day.

Mysterious Stranger wrote:
Grit (Ex): A mysterious stranger is a force to be reckoned with. Instead of using her Wisdom to determine the number of grit points she gains at the start of each day, she uses Charisma. This ability works in all other ways like the gunslinger’s grit class feature.
Gunslinger wrote:
At the start of each day, a gunslinger gains a number of grit points equal to her Wisdom modifier (minimum 1). Her grit goes up or down throughout the day, but usually cannot go higher than her Wisdom modifier (minimum 1), though some feats and magic items may affect this maximum.

I'm not here complaining that my DM won't let me run it the common sense way, I'm here complaining that as a DM who runs in a purely RAW community, I have to tell people that their characters don't work, even though it's obvious what the intent is. I'd like Paizo to fix their mistakes.

Some people joke about people who read rules exactly as written looking for powerful loopholes, but when you dedicate yourself to that, you have to take the good along with the bad, and this is bad. Paizo is quick as hell to fix RAW readings that give people benefits, but for RAW readings that f~~~ over players, they're slower than my ISP.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Kristal Moonhand wrote:
I'm here complaining that as a DM who runs in a purely RAW community, I have to tell people that their characters don't work, even though it's obvious what the intent is. I'd like Paizo to fix their mistakes.

We know what the text means. People can play it the way it is intended. PFS games can run it the way intended. This doesn't need a FAQ. This is not an error in writing, as if you clear it up you for you then you may make it less clear for others.


Bjørn Røyrvik wrote:
I read it as substituting Cha for Wis in all ways related to Grit. That's the only sensible way to read it.

Im sorry, but how do you read the words that are there, written, on the page, and come to that meaning?

Scarab Sages

The section of the entry "the number of grit points she gains at the start of each day" wouldn't need to exist, or even make sense, if the idea had been to just swap cha and wisdom for grit.

So it seems intentional to me that part of the mysterious stranger tradeoff is still needing some wisdom.

This is the normal entry: At the start of each day, a gunslinger gains a number of grit points equal to her Wisdom modifier (minimum 1). Her grit goes up or down throughout the day, but usually cannot go higher than her Wisdom modifier (minimum 1), though some feats and magic items may affect this maximum.

Modified, it becomes: At the start of each day, a gunslinger gains a number of grit points equal to her Charisma modifier (minimum 1). Her grit goes up or down throughout the day, but usually cannot go higher than her Wisdom modifier (minimum 1), though some feats and magic items may affect this maximum.

So either the intent was to make that one change, which seems backed up by the actual entry, or the person writing the archetype thought for some reason that wisdom only affected grit points gained and still thought it was necessary to specify that one sentence instead of writing a shorter sentence. Seems more likely the limit was intentional to me.

Shadow Lodge

Magicdealer wrote:
So it seems intentional to me that part of the mysterious stranger tradeoff is still needing some wisdom.

If your max grit is based on Wis, then a Mysterious Stranger whose Cha > Wis can only actually start with grit equal to their Wis (cuz that's the max). So by your reading the Mysterious Stranger doesn't just need some Wis, they need just as much Wis as the standard gunslinger and also Cha, ideally Cha = Wis so they can start with... grit equal to their Wis, like a normal gunslinger.

Doesn't make sense to me.


Weirdo wrote:
Magicdealer wrote:
So it seems intentional to me that part of the mysterious stranger tradeoff is still needing some wisdom.

If your max grit is based on Wis, then a Mysterious Stranger whose Cha > Wis can only actually start with grit equal to their Wis (cuz that's the max). So by your reading the Mysterious Stranger doesn't just need some Wis, they need just as much Wis as the standard gunslinger and also Cha, ideally Cha = Wis so they can start with... grit equal to their Wis, like a normal gunslinger.

Doesn't make sense to me.

Also, Cha is their damage stat until 9th level when they finally get Gun Training, and they have to spend grit to get their extra damage, so they want as much Cha as possible, which means they also want as much Wis as possible. If that was the intent, it's a terrible intent.


AlejoTheGreat wrote:
Bjørn Røyrvik wrote:
I read it as substituting Cha for Wis in all ways related to Grit. That's the only sensible way to read it.
Im sorry, but how do you read the words that are there, written, on the page, and come to that meaning?

By using my brain.


Kristal Moonhand wrote:
Gunslinger wrote:
At the start of each day, a gunslinger gains a number of grit points equal to her Wisdom modifier (minimum 1). Her grit goes up or down throughout the day, but usually cannot go higher than her Wisdom modifier (minimum 1), though some feats and magic items may affect this maximum.

So the Mysterious Stranger is an exception to that 'usually', and can have Grit higher than their Wisdom bonus. I think most people would agree that that's the intent of the Archetype's modification to Grit


Andy Brown wrote:
Kristal Moonhand wrote:
Gunslinger wrote:
At the start of each day, a gunslinger gains a number of grit points equal to her Wisdom modifier (minimum 1). Her grit goes up or down throughout the day, but usually cannot go higher than her Wisdom modifier (minimum 1), though some feats and magic items may affect this maximum.

So the Mysterious Stranger is an exception to that 'usually', and can have Grit higher than their Wisdom bonus. I think most people would agree that that's the intent of the Archetype's modification to Grit

i didnt realize this was a feat or magic item


Bjørn Røyrvik wrote:
AlejoTheGreat wrote:
Bjørn Røyrvik wrote:
I read it as substituting Cha for Wis in all ways related to Grit. That's the only sensible way to read it.
Im sorry, but how do you read the words that are there, written, on the page, and come to that meaning?
By using my brain.

im sorry, how am i supposed to understand and follow your logic when your logic is "my brain says so"


You asked how I read it, not what my logic was. I suppose I should have mentioned using my eyes at some point, come to think of it. My hands and feet played parts in this as well. When you think about it, quite a lot of my body was involved at some point.

My reasoning was thus: it is clumsily written but says something about using Charisma instead of Wisdom. Thus the easiest interpretation, which synchs well with other abilities of the archetype, like using Charisma on damage, as well as other abilities in the game as a whole, is that you use Charisma instead of Wisdom for everything grit related, instead of mucking about with overlapping ability scores in a single aspect of the mechanics.
So, simplicity, precedent, synergy and knowing that people sometimes phrase things a bit awkwardly.

Clear enough for you?


Bjørn Røyrvik wrote:

You asked how I read it, not what my logic was. I suppose I should have mentioned using my eyes at some point, come to think of it. My hands and feet played parts in this as well. When you think about it, quite a lot of my body was involved at some point.

My reasoning was thus: it is clumsily written but says something about using Charisma instead of Wisdom. Thus the easiest interpretation, which synchs well with other abilities of the archetype, like using Charisma on damage, as well as other abilities in the game as a whole, is that you use Charisma instead of Wisdom for everything grit related, instead of mucking about with overlapping ability scores in a single aspect of the mechanics.
So, simplicity, precedent, synergy and knowing that people sometimes phrase things a bit awkwardly.

Clear enough for you?

I guess we have a different working definition of simplicity. Mine tends to lean towards not adding to things that I read. as far as synergy, Is it not possible, that as a trade off for getting to add two stats to damage, they made it harder to have a large grit pool? Why do you assume its a mistake when it could just be a way to reduce the power as a trade off for gaining some somewhere else?


And in the case of game mechanics, mine tends towards "what requires least bookkeeping and less effort to understand" A simple ability score substitution makes far more sense and is simpler than having to keep track of two different scores in different situations for the same pool.
The extra damage deed costs grit, which is its own balancing factor, so no need to muck about with extra rules about limiting grit.


Bjørn Røyrvik wrote:

And in the case of game mechanics, mine tends towards "what requires least bookkeeping and less effort to understand" A simple ability score substitution makes far more sense and is simpler than having to keep track of two different scores in different situations for the same pool.

The extra damage deed costs grit, which is its own balancing factor, so no need to muck about with extra rules about limiting grit.

But what if the writer meant to. Exactly as the phrase is written, do you honestly believe it SAYS, not what you think it should, or what you think it might, but SAYS that your pool is entirely based off of cha, and not split between the two?


Mysterious Stranger wrote:
Grit (Ex): A mysterious stranger is a force to be reckoned with. Instead of using her Wisdom to determine the number of grit points she gains at the start of each day, she uses Charisma. This ability works in all other ways like the gunslinger's grit class feature.
Standard Gunslinger wrote:

Grit (Ex): A gunslinger makes her mark upon the world with daring deeds. Some gunslingers claim they belong to a mystical way of the gun, but it's more likely that the volatile nature of firearms simply prunes the unlucky and careless from their ranks. Whatever the reason, all gunslingers have grit. In game terms, grit is a fluctuating measure of a gunslinger's ability to perform amazing actions in combat. At the start of each day, a gunslinger gains a number of grit points equal to her Wisdom modifier (minimum 1). Her grit goes up or down throughout the day, but usually cannot go higher than her Wisdom modifier (minimum 1), though some feats and magic items may affect this maximum. A gunslinger spends grit to accomplish deeds (see below), and regains grit in the following ways.

Critical Hit with a Firearm: Each time the gunslinger confirms a critical hit with a firearm attack while in the heat of combat, she regains 1 grit point. Confirming a critical hit on a helpless or unaware creature or on a creature that has fewer Hit Dice than half the gunslinger's character level does not restore grit.

Killing Blow with a Firearm: When the gunslinger reduces a creature to 0 or fewer hit points with a firearm attack while in the heat of combat, she regains 1 grit point. Destroying an unattended object, reducing a helpless or unaware creature to 0 or fewer hit points, or reducing a creature that has fewer Hit Dice than half the gunslinger's character level to 0 or fewer hit points does not restore any grit.

I believe the intent was to swap Charisma for Wisdom and the final sentence was in reference to regaining grit.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

+1 Helpful Harry


Typically, abilities do things, or allow you to do things. It has been pointed out that reading it strictly as written essentially means that it does basically nothing 99% of the time, so it would make sense to interpret it as replacing Wis with Cha under circumstances not explicitly covered by the ability.

Shadow Lodge

If the archetype was supposed to need both Wis and Cha as a balancing factor, the most reasonable way to do that would be to leave Grit entirely dependent on Wis, and make the other features Cha-based.

Not do a weird thing where you effectively start with the lower of your Wis or Cha in grit.


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Kristal Moonhand wrote:
I'm here complaining that as a DM who runs in a purely RAW community, I have to tell people that their characters don't work, even though it's obvious what the intent is. I'd like Paizo to fix their mistakes.

That seems unlikely. You've painted yourself into a hole, which is unfortunate. Rule zero is a long lasting tradition for a variety of very good reasons. I would suggest that your "Raw Only" community take a vote, and agree on some errata, or else get used to not using this archetype. Best of luck.


I see I am interpreting it in the best manner for the class and game as a whole, if that is what you mean. People write inaccurate stuff all the time where what they say isn't what they meant to say, and this is most likely just another case. Sometimes people also write stuff that is legitimately poorly thought-out and/or unnecessarily complicated and people will either ignore it entirely or make it work by altering it.


Bjørn Røyrvik wrote:

I see I am interpreting it in the best manner for the class and game as a whole, if that is what you mean. People write inaccurate stuff all the time where what they say isn't what they meant to say, and this is most likely just another case. Sometimes people also write stuff that is legitimately poorly thought-out and/or unnecessarily complicated and people will either ignore it entirely or make it work by altering it.

Not what you interpret, but what you see and read.

Shadow Lodge

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Reading natural language - the kind Pathfinder is written in - requires interpretation.

That's why it's taken so long to get computers to do it.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

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Weirdo is so smart! That is an awesome way to frame it.

Paizo Employee Customer Service Manager

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Removed post and reply. Do not use the r-word or words meant to be a play on it. .

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