I can see an increase in range, but not getting anywhere near orbit and definitely not high enough to reach terminal velocity either. When it reaches the apex, it keeps it's forward momentum, but falls slower. It becomes more like a cannon ball than a boulder launched from a trebuchet. Better for smashing holes in castle walls than crushing buildings. It becomes and different kind of weapon.
Now... casting antigravity on a boulder and guiding it over a target. That can gain terminal velocity and flatten some stuff, real good.
Besides that, the spell does not work on ranged attacks unless the range is so far the damage would come from falling.
Besides that, the spell does not work on ranged attacks unless the range is so far the damage would come from falling.
That's true. I just re-read it and it continues to say that it only works on free-falling objects. A launched boulder from a trebuchet or catapult is definately not a free falling object even after it reaches it's apex since it still has a forward momentum.
About Reverse Gravity... I think it would be funny to see a bunch of boulders launched over a castle wall then fly upward and over the castle like a giant invisible trampoline. Castle defense should definitely include a team of wizards with Reverse Gravity. Of course, if they have that spell, they can probably wipe out the other army, anyway.
So if I fall out of combat how far do I descend before I can cast the spell.
As I'd be flatfooted and therefore incapable pf taking an immediate action immediately.
You wouldn't necessarily be flatfooted outside of combat. You could be or not, depending on the situation. If you're flatooted, you'd better fall pretty far or you'll splat before you cast. I don't know exactly how far. Maybe GM determines... or maybe 100 feet? 500 feet? Hope you don't have to find out. Somebody mentioned 500', but I don't know where that number came from.
A launched boulder from a trebuchet or catapult is definately not a free falling object even after it reaches it's apex since it still has a forward momentum.
Scientifically speaking, an object is free falling when gravity is the only force acting on it. For example, the moon is in free fall because nothing else is pushing on it.
If we're being literal about it, anything experiencing air resistance applying (such as a human falling off a cliff) is not in freefall. But if we ignore air resistance, a human jumping is in freefall as soon as they leave the ground, even when they're still on the way up.
Right. An object is in free fall if gravity is the only force acting on it. If it's launched, gravity isn't the only force acting on it because it's been propelled forward. It's affected by inertia or velocity... whatever physics word describes the fact that it's mass is being forced in a certain direction by whatever launched it. If you dropped it, the gravity would be the only force acting on it. If you throw it, it's being affected by more than just gravity. Was it the Tomb Raider movie where Lara Croft turned the knife around to hit the guy who threw it? I hated that movie, but at least that was accurate.
I would think for purposes of the Feather Fall spell, they say "free fall' as in actually falling... how normal people interpret the word. As in, gravity is then only 'obvious' thing that's acting on it. Someone falling is getting wind resistance, but it's not enough to drastically change the outcome. A boulder that's been launched is still, very obviously, moving forward. Gravity doesn't do that. It's still under force. Just like in your example of someone jumping. That's not freefall, because they're being propelled by the force they exerted against the ground. Now, if Earth started orbiting Jupiter and Jupiter's gravity pulled you off the Earth, you're in free fall even though, from your perspective, you're going up.
Don'tcha like how we bring physics into a conversation about magic? Something that goes completely against physics.
The propelling force doesn't end when it leaves the launcher. If it did, it would fall to the ground as soon as it was launched. It's still driven by force. It's not in free fall if it's moving in a direction. It's affected by velocity or momentum. Something other than just gravity therefore it's not in free fall.
Okay. I'm not explaining this right. It doesn't mean I'm wrong. It just means I'm not as eloquent. Think of an object in space. momentum keeps an object moving once it's propelled by force. Momentum keeps an object moving forward and gravity is pulling it down. If gravity was the only thing affecting it, there would be no forward motion. It would simply drop. Force from the device that propelled it caused the momentum that's affecting it by it moving forward as well as gravity affecting it by pulling it down. Hence, gravity is not the only force acting on it, so it's not in free fall. If it was launched straight up, then fell back down, it would be in freefall as soon as it ran out of momentum.
Okay. I'm not explaining this right. It doesn't mean I'm wrong. It just means I'm not as eloquent. Think of an object in space. momentum keeps an object moving once it's propelled by force. Momentum keeps an object moving forward and gravity is pulling it down. If gravity was the only thing affecting it, there would be no forward motion. It would simply drop. Force from the device that propelled it caused the momentum that's affecting it by it moving forward as well as gravity affecting it by pulling it down. Hence, gravity is not the only force acting on it, so it's not in free fall. If it was launched straight up, then fell back down, it would be in freefall as soon as it ran out of momentum.
Momentum is not a force. Momentum is mass times velocity while force is mass times acceleration. If I throw a baseball into the air, then it is in free fall as soon as it leaves contact with my hand (if we ignore friction as Matthew Downie said). I say this as someone with a degree in physics as well as many years of experience teaching the subject.
If gravity was the only thing affecting it, there would be no forward motion. It would simply drop.
Newton's laws of motion state that an object in motion keeps travelling with constant velocity unless a force acts upon it.
The momentum of an object launched from a catapult is not an ongoing force. It's the tendency of an object to keep going until something stops it.
I knew it was just a matter of time before someone would say they have a degree in physics. Decide what you want. Throwing going up is moving against gravity so it's not in free fall. Something moving horizontally has been pushed in that direction and gravity it's the only thing affecting it. If it was, it would only be moving vertically. Like I said, decide what you want, I'm done arguing. This is going nowhere.
I'm out.
I wish I had the self-confidence to declare that I was right and that physics teachers, Isaac Newton and Wikipedia were all wrong...
I knew it was just a matter of time before someone would say they have a degree in physics. Decide what you want. Throwing going up is moving against gravity so it's not in free fall. Something moving horizontally has been pushed in that direction and gravity it's the only thing affecting it. If it was, it would only be moving vertically. Like I said, decide what you want, I'm done arguing. This is going nowhere.
I'm out.
It’s going nowhere because you have a conceptual block. Maybe this will help: what is the difference between someone who walks into a pit trap, is pushed off a ledge, or is thrown from a trebuchet? A: none, they all have a lateral component to their movement imparted by a previous force, but all are subject to only one force while falling - acceleration straight down, even as they retain some velocity and momentum to the side. The fact the trebuchet victim has more lateral momentum is irrelevant.
You guys realize magic works just as much with concepts as it does with science, right? There's a reason you can't control people's bodies with Control Water: they're not conceptually water. The concept of free-falling obviously excludes something being launched in most cases.
I knew it was just a matter of time before someone would say they have a degree in physics.
I do have a degree in physics, but you don't need to believe me in order to see that momentum is not a force. As I said, momentum is mass times velocity while force is mass times acceleration. For example momentum can be measured in kg*m/s while force could be measured in kg*m/(s^2). They aren't the same, so momentum is not a force. Momentum and force are related to each other, but they are not the same quality.
Throwing going up is moving against gravity so it's not in free fall. Something moving horizontally has been pushed in that direction and gravity it's the only thing affecting it.
An object does not have to be falling to be in free fall. If I throw a baseball upward then my hand is pushing it and therefore is exerting a force on the ball. But once the ball loses contact with my hand, it is no longer experiencing any force other than gravity (and air friction which we are ignoring). That means that it is in free fall. It "has been pushed" by my hand, but it is no longer being pushed by my hand. So the ball is in free fall from the moment that it leaves my hand, all the way to the top of its arc, and then until the moment that it impacts the ground.
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I wish I had the self-confidence to declare that I was right and that physics teachers, Isaac Newton and Wikipedia were all wrong...
To be fair, the Newtonian perspective is very unintuitive. It seems that Chuck Mount is arguing for the Aristotelian worldview which held sway for about two millennia. Newton's laws weren't obvious to Aristotle or to any of the many geniuses who lived between his time and Newton's. One of the most difficult parts of teaching physics is convincing students that their intuitions about how the world works are largely wrong.
You guys realize magic works just as much with concepts as it does with science, right? There's a reason you can't control people's bodies with Control Water: they're not conceptually water. The concept of free-falling obviously excludes something being launched in most cases.
Sure, the game rules don't match reality. But I think I would allow a Wizard launched into the air to cast Feather Fall on the way up even though it wouldn't have any measurable impact until they were on the way down.
To be fair, the Newtonian perspective is very unintuitive. It seems that Chuck Mount is arguing for the Aristotelian worldview which held sway for about two millennia. Newton's laws weren't obvious to Aristotle or to any of the many geniuses who lived between his time and Newton's. One of the most difficult parts of teaching physics is convincing students that their intuitions about how the world works are largely wrong.And then we get to do it all over again when they hit relativity and quantum mechanics and we have to explain that their now-trained intuition (which matches classical mechanics) is only accurate at low speeds and large scales.
True, but I find that those transitions are easier because they already have the experience of resetting their worldview once and also because the 'cool factor' of relativity and QM is so high that their emotional resistance to change is pretty low.
In other news, boots of the cat are cheap and your character should probably have them.
You know what's also cheap? A Talisman of Beneficial Winds. You can wear three of them at once in your neck slot. A Greater Talisman will activate once per day and is 500gp. A Lesser Talisman is consumed on use, but only costs 50gp. The Feather Fall effect only lasts 1 round, but if you're using Acrobatics to intentionally jump down from somewhere, you can pull out and put on your Talisman, jump down, and usually be relatively fine. They trigger automatically when you fall at least 5 feet, so you don't even need to use any sort of action.
The counter to the worry that you're feather fall running out after 9 rounds is that you're going to fall over 46,000 ft after those 9 rounds. I believe that 500 ft mentioned in the spell is because you will fall roughly 500 ft in 6 seconds under normal earth gravity.
If you have 1 round of Feather Fall, you can fall 60ft. while taking no damage, not counting however far you fell before using Feather Fall, which is nullified. What are you jumping down from that you need to safely fall 540ft.?
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If you have 1 round of Feather Fall, you can fall 60ft. while taking no damage, not counting however far you fell before using Feather Fall, which is nullified. What are you jumping down from that you need to safely fall 540ft.?
The back of a dragon.
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A flying castle, a mountain cliff, a planeshift gone badly wrong since unlike teleport it doesn't specify a "safe" place and the 5-500 mile error could be straight up.
You move yourself or some other creature to another plane of existence or alternate dimension. If several willing persons link hands in a circle, as many as eight can be affected by the plane shift at the same time. Precise accuracy as to a particular arrival location on the intended plane is nigh impossible. From the Material Plane, you can reach any other plane, though you appear 5 to 500 miles (5d%) from your intended destination. Plane shift transports creatures instantaneously and then ends. The creatures need to find other means if they are to travel back (including casting plane shift again).
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Plane Shift is a Conjuration effect, which has the clause built into the school.
A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.
500 miles off if "vertical" was included as a possibility would mean outside the atmosphere. Since the spell makes no mention of such a possibility, and isn't the "intuitive" interpretation I honestly find the idea to be nonsense. Not to say that you aren't technically correct, but I'm almost certain that it's not the intended interpretation.
Much like you don't have to make a concentration to cast feather fall because you're falling, despite that being the technically the correct way to run it because the rules don't officially say otherwise.
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I'm not saying I'd ever do that to a player merely pointing out that it is a legitimate reading of the rules as they exist.
With regards to Triomega's point that deals with creatures brought into being or transported TO your location not moving you to another location. You are already in being and you are being transported FROM your location.
With regards to Claxon's point you are quite right when moving to the material plane and being moved up or down would probably invalidate the generaly unspoken "safe place" ruling everyone uses but if your going to another plane e.g. the inner plane of air or the outer plane of gehena there's no indication at all that they have an atmosphere and the inner plane's especially don't work the same and you do have an effectively infinite up/down that is just as valid a direction to move as side/side or front/back. The inner plane of air for instance specifically mentions falling in its rules and floating blocks of earth.
Again I'm merely pointing out a technicality here as to why I always ran feather fall as "until landing" and I wouldn't do this to players.
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FFS, really?With regards to Triomega's point that deals with creatures brought into being or transported TO your location not moving you to another location. You are already in being and you are being transported FROM your location.
I did say I was arguing technicalities there and its wasn't something I'd do to a player. I have however had experience of one rules lawyer who would argue every little detail like that. He was also a munchkin actually and took advantage of a new gms inexperience to gestalt/prestige class his way to being able to cast 9th level spells at 14th level (and got a flying carpet with glassteel dome as a transport and a whole bunch of other stuff). I was not surprised when the game ended soon after. Anyway point is I have known someone who would argue that point.
I did say I was arguing technicalities there and its wasn't something I'd do to a player. I have however had experience of one rules lawyer who would argue every little detail like that. He was also a munchkin actually and took advantage of a new gms inexperience to gestalt/prestige class his way to being able to cast 9th level spells at 14th level (and got a flying carpet with glassteel dome as a transport and a whole bunch of other stuff). I was not surprised when the game ended soon after. Anyway point is I have known someone who would argue that point.FFS, really?With regards to Triomega's point that deals with creatures brought into being or transported TO your location not moving you to another location. You are already in being and you are being transported FROM your location.
Stop arguing technicalities! This is the Rules Forum and... oh, right. Carry on.
"The affected creatures or objects fall slowly. Feather fall instantly changes the rate at which the targets fall to a mere 60 feet per round (equivalent to the end of a fall from a few feet), and the subjects take no damage upon landing while the spell is in effect. When the spell duration expires, a normal rate of falling resumes.
The spell affects one or more Medium or smaller creatures (including gear and carried objects up to each creature’s maximum load) or objects, or the equivalent in larger creatures: a Large creature or object counts as two Medium creatures or objects, a Huge creature or object counts as four Medium creatures or objects, and so forth.
This spell has no special effect on ranged weapons unless they are falling quite a distance. If the spell is cast on a falling item, the object does half normal damage based on its weight, with no bonus for the height of the drop.
Feather fall works only upon free-falling objects. It does not affect a sword blow or a charging or flying creature."
I just want to ask, where does it say that it maintains your speed at 60ft per round? It simply says it changes it, and that would happen when you cast it.
I am being intentionally obtuse, but it really doesn't say you don't start accelerating again. The only thing it says is that you fall "slowly" and that is the only bit of the spell that has a duration other than instantaneous. Along with the bit about not taking damage.
So by RAW, you would cast the spell, and immediately accelerate to 10ft/s (either positive or negative acceleration) and then immediately start to accelerate towards a "slow" fall.
Just for laughs, the kinetic energy of an average human falling at 10ft/s is 394.838 J. Really not a lot actually.
This is kinda just a laugh but I think technically it might be correct.
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Now. Just from a conservation of energy consideration... Where does the extra gravitational potential energy that is not being converted to kinetic energy go?
Another fun question, does featherfall say you have to cast it at the top of the fall, or can you cast it mid fall?
If I can cast it mid fall what is the largest G force I could pull by the sudden deceleration. 1342 km/h is the fastest a human has reached in free fall. 1223.02 ft/s. That is a deltaV of (1223.02-10) = 1213.02 m/s. This change is instentaneous. Depending on whether we want to be killed by gforces or not we actually need to define a time, as using lime as t->0 of DeltaV/t gives us infinite acceleration, and kills us. So how quickly could we decelerate. 46.2 G is a good number from a quick search, yields an accelration of 1486.44 ft/s2
That means we could cause the desired deceleration over (1213.02/1486.44) = 0.82 seconds.
In case it wan't glaringly obvious... I like mathematics
MATHSMythic feather fall gives the option of releasing the energy not converted as an AoE attack. Because the damage does not depend on the size of creature or object falling, it is possible to drop some pebbles and do massive damage to a small area.
"1d6 points of damage per caster level (maximum 5d6, Reflex half, DC equal to the DC of feather fall)." Does not massive damage make.
But yes. SUPERHEROLANDING!
I missed the bit about multiple targets. Whoops.
Only concern is that each instance of 5d6 would reduced by DR would it not?
The average is on 5d6 is 17.5. Unless you are talking like DR10 it is still SCARY amounts of damage.
But it would drop out of favor at higher levels I would imagine
I missed the bit about multiple targets. Whoops.
Only concern is that each instance of 5d6 would reduced by DR would it not?
The average is on 5d6 is 17.5. Unless you are talking like DR10 it is still SCARY amounts of damage.
But it would drop out of favor at higher levels I would imagine
It is untyped spell damage. Damage reduction doesn't apply. Though each burst does have a save to halve the damage.
And the damage just gets better at higher levels, not worse. Most spells are limited to 1 or 2 dice of damage per caster level. Mythic Feather Fall stops at 5 dice per target, but 2 targets/level. So 10 dice per level of damage. The only real drawback (Besides requiring 2 uses of mythic power each time you want to do this) is range. Feather Fall has a very short range compared to other blasting options (unless you are in the open and flying above your enemies).
I really need to stop posting when tired