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...but the words say the exact opposite.
Fluidic Body(Su):An oozemorph's base form is not that of her race but rather that of a protoplasmic blob that has the same volume and weight. An oozemorph treats her creature type as both ooze and her base creature type from her race for the pruposes of effects targeting creatures by type (such as [u]bane[/u] weapons and a ranger's favored enemy). In this form, the oozemorph is immune to critical hits and precision damage and cannot be flanked. However, she has no magic item slots and she cannot benefit from armor, cast spells, hold objects, speak, or use any magic item that requires activation, is held, or is worn on the body.
That is directly from the book.
That is what someone has to work with.
It should be noted that a few folks have been poking at this for the better part of two weeks now (since some subscriber information became available) trying to figure out how it would work and it even has an outstanding FAQ on it.
As far as reprinting/re-doing whole sections of the book?
The errata for ACG were so in-depth and comprehensive that they produced a 'hot-packet' with over thirty pages of corrections about six months or so after release of the product, and it salvaged the book slightly for those who had bought it.
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>>>>> An oozemorph treats her creature type as both ooze and her base creature type <<<<<<
I mean if you need it clarified thats fine but I got how I'm gonna use it.
I have never seen the errata for the ACG I'm not even familiar with the flaws. I guess I could check that out to see what your talking about.
But hey I hope they do post something to clarify (and fix some things) for you guys.
Edit: looking over it its a pretty good sized document what are some of the changes I'm suppose to be looking for?
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>>>>> An oozemorph treats her creature type as both ooze and her base creature type <<<<<<
I mean if you need it clarified thats fine but I got how I'm gonna use it.
You cut off the part that proves you wrong.
An oozemorph treats her creature type as both ooze and her base creature type from her race for the purposes of effects targeting creatures by type.
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Eh maybe your right I can see what your saying but my interpretation makes it playable and yours doesn't.
I didn't say it didn't if you look I said I hope you guys do get it faq'd (well specifically said clarified and fixed).
Edit: hey when you've played back in some of these early RPG's you get used to reading an intent of (half written or poorly thought out) rules to make them work. I guess It does create some table variation.
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Eh maybe your right I can see what your saying but my interpretation makes it playable and yours doesn't.
Your interpretation isn't based in the actual wording though. I'm not saying it wouldn't be a fine houserule, but you literally can't read the ability any way that it gives you basic playability/function without adding something extra to it.
Then too, your interpretation has slow moving 5' blobs because it has a non-existent tail instead of non-existent legs. Playable might not match what makes sense [like slimes all have the same land move].
I didn't say it didn't if you look I said I hope you guys do get it faq'd (well specifically said clarified and fixed).
I'm not sure what you're saying then.
PS: Saw edit: While I'm perfectly capable of making up rules to make the archetype work, that's little use to me as I'm not the one I'd have to convince: it's my DM at the time. Then when I move to another game, i have to go through the whole dance again, and maybe come to a different 'fix' for the archetype. And so on. I might end up with multiple 'correct' fixes for a single oversight in the book.
As such, I'd like it fixed to that It's consistently playable out of the book without the need for rolling a diplomacy check BEFORE play starts. :P
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In reply to: I'm not sure what you're saying then.
I was listing my thoughts on the product. Then people starting talking about them so I responded to them. I was not pushing an agenda... I will say that you (or actually I guess it was the dinosaur) changed my mind on the wording being one way or the other. I think I even hit the FAQ button on the mega slimy thread.
People just automatically assume your arguing for the sake of arguing I guess darn internet!
AS a side not that I'm going to stress is not to push an agenda. I don't switch games that often and I'm typically DM So I don't have to constantly explain house rules to people. I hardly ever switch up groups. I'm sorry if that is something you have to do cause it sounds frustrating.
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While I like that line, it doesn't apply here. Pathfinder is a permissive rule set. It tells you what you can do and that's all you can do.
It's why grease makes things slippery but can't be set on fire like actually grease. The rules don't say you can, so you cannot.
The Oozemorph doesn't say you get any senses, movement speed, or size changes, so you don't.
Not pushing an agenda but I think in one edition (not pf) It did specifically say it wasn't flammable.
In reply to: I'm not sure what you're saying then.
I posted before your edit, so I assumed MY edit would cover this.
People just automatically assume your arguing for the sake of arguing I guess darn internet!
No, I was genuinely confused until your ending edit. Once you did, I got what you meant.
AS a side not that I'm going to stress is not to push an agenda.
I don't like to, which makes clear rules super important. When everyone can go to an internet link and have everyone be on exactly the same page is key to a good online game. Debating on the ambiguous just slows everything down.
I'm sorry if that is something you have to do cause it sounds frustrating.
It's the nature of online gaming I'm afraid. People DM when work, life and/or school allows so it's not uncommon for a DM to 'take a break' after a game closes up [or take a breather and play instead of DM].
There are two types of people.
1) Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data.
Cool, so all they had to do is put a "shifter" header and you'd be fine filling in the rest?
As to the Oozemorph, there is NOTHING to extrapolate from! We have nothing to base what an ooze/blob form has for basic abilities: If we go off normal oozes, the character would be Mindless, Blind, deal acid damage to objects and not sleep! [and we STILL wouldn't know it's speed :P ]
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AS a side not that I'm going to stress is not to push an agenda. I don't switch games that often and I'm typically DM So I don't have to constantly explain house rules to people. I hardly ever switch up groups. I'm sorry if that is something you have to do cause it sounds frustrating.
I agree with this and also sympathise. It seems to be a big driver of people’s frustrations with rulesets.
We’ve been playing in essentially an unchanged group since the late eighties - when we read rules, we just have to have an idea of what we think it means. Thoroughness is an unimportant feature to us (and is something of a negative, to be frank).
I think they should do the acid damage! probably not sleep too. mindless however could be problematic. Now when you say blind can I get a tremor sense?
on grease: I think in 1st edition I remember hearing some dm's had grease non-flammable. our group had it flammable.
I guess asking for clarifications and rules fixes is pretty reasonable.
To me when I read it. It made sense but I can see the grey(area) your talking about now.
my actual complaints:
I think they should of called the enhancement bonuses something else but as I mentioned a shifter belt magic item would fix this too.
Then the duration on some of the shifting effects being removed would end a lot of complaints. I don't see why they can't just let him/her shift at will. The bonuses are not overpowering. (I don't think they even put you on par with barb) That and I would like a change-self type ability at will. (I guess that could be an archetype :P)
I did however really like the elemental and lycantrope ones.
AS a side not that I'm going to stress is not to push an agenda. I don't switch games that often and I'm typically DM So I don't have to constantly explain house rules to people. I hardly ever switch up groups. I'm sorry if that is something you have to do cause it sounds frustrating.I agree with this and also sympathise. It seems to be a big driver of people’s frustrations with rulesets.
We’ve been playing in essentially an unchanged group since the late eighties - when we read rules, we just have to have an idea of what we think it means. Thoroughness is an unimportant feature to us (and is something of a negative, to be frank).
Yes Exactly!
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We’ve been playing in essentially an unchanged group since the late eighties - when we read rules, we just have to have an idea of what we think it means.
And I can completely understand this. I had a steady from late 70's to 90's and then another, though some players stayed, from then till mid 00's. Life interfered though and players moved away, got jobs that didn't mesh with gaming schedule, started families and didn't have time, ect. Myself, I have an aging parent to look after and can't take the day off to go play like I used to.
For me now, I've had to adapt to online gaming and it just has different expectations as a home game with established people. Now, things that we could hand wave easily requires a lot of back and forth messages that just eat up time I could be playing if the rule was clear.
Vidmaster7: Cool. I'd just wanted to point out the grey so if you see it now, I'm happy.
complaints:
Bonuses: Yep, enhancement bonuses is a bit unneeded IMO.
Duration: If aspects were all day and you could at least break up your wildshapes [like making it 1 hour/day usable in 10 min chunks], it's be a lot more palatable. 1 min/day just seems mean.
change-self: I suggested the exact same thing in one of these threads before the class came out. It's at least let me FEEL like I'm a shapeshifter even if I don't get any huge bonuses for doing so.
elemental: The sticking point here is your elemental strike doesn't work if you actual change shape. So you get the option to do cool elemental form stuff and tank your combat ability [1d6 or 1d8 + 1.5 str] vs staying humanoid and getting up to +6d6 energy damage ON TOP of your normal physical damage on every attack... So you end up NEVER wanting to be in your shifted form in combat.
lycantrope: this one is saved by having DR/silver and imm to lycanthropy work all day. Add that to having equipment work while shifted and it's not too bad.
Interesting I didn't pick up on the elemental working that way. Hmm so is that another one that could use some Faq then eh?
The duration of 1 min/day seems so weird. I thought they had decided against that method back in the core with the barbarians rage. So they did rounds per day instead.
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Interesting I didn't pick up on the elemental working that way. Hmm so is that another one that could use some Faq then eh?
I don't think it really needs a FAQ, as it's functional. It just... irks me that as a class whose main thing is shapeshifting that this archetype uses it mainly as a way to from here to there [flight/swim/burrow] then changes out of it to fight. It's going to look like some fighter with a flaming spear and not what I'd picture how a dude that can transform into living fire would fight. :(
Yeah I don't care for that/
I know it doesn't help but I know how I'll rule it for my games.
I wonder if changing aspects from 'minutes' to 'hours' would help the class and archetypes any.
But have to agree with your assessment, graystone -- Shifter should be *IN OTHER FORMS* not 'let's play-pretend that maybe I might have some little benefit by maybe having something related to a form I identify with'.
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well technically we have to pretend no matter what, but I see what your saying.
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See my reading is that it uses your base form (say human if your a human shifter) and adds the extra stuff on to it. then it works just fine.
That's more or less how the designer said it was intended to work:
I can now say that the oozeshifter doesn't lose or gain anything that isn't expressly called out in the text. It loses item slots and the ability to hold/manipulate objects and wear equipment. But it retains all of the oozemorph's racial traits (senses, ability scores, etc). The character is treated as an ooze and their original creature type, but not all ooze rules obviously apply to them since the creature's TYPE doesn't change to ooze. (Not blind, etc). Much like how an android is treated as humanoid/construct but doesn't get all of a construct's traits.
So I called it correctly... still the actual rules in the book probably need the clarification.
I"m thinking about this and wouldn't losing equipment still make it unplayable at high levels?
I can now say that the oozeshifter doesn't lose or gain anything that isn't expressly called out in the text. It loses item slots and the ability to hold/manipulate objects and wear equipment. But it retains all of the oozemorph's racial traits (senses, ability scores, etc). The character is treated as an ooze and their original creature type, but not all ooze rules obviously apply to them since the creature's TYPE doesn't change to ooze. (Not blind, etc). Much like how an android is treated as humanoid/construct but doesn't get all of a construct's traits.
Yep, but that runs into issues on the other hand: oozes of same size have different land speeds, can fly, have prehensile tails, have 4 arms, have natural attacks, change shape at will, can have no con, you can trip a slime unless it's a merfolk slime, ect...
Note that their keeping change shape means Reptoids, Kitsune, Skinwalkers and Rougarous can completely ignore the ooze form and just get the benefits of the archetype with no minuses...
Seems like their practically missing a whole page or two from the book to make this one work. (without having to make some assumptions.)
Seems like their practically missing a whole page or two from the book to make this one work. (without having to make some assumptions.)
Yep. Either way you go, you have unanswered questions.
PS: I'm TOTALLY willing to abuse a Wereraptor-kin or Werewolf-Kin skinwalker for all day long oozeshifter goodies. I just can't imagine the RAI was for there to be only 4 viable races for this archetype.
PPS: 1st level, I can take Werewolf-Kin skinwalker and have Darkvision 60 feet, +2 racial bonus on all saving throws, magic fang 1/day, +2 to ooze empathy and Perception, low light, Compression, Morphic Weaponry (2) Ooze Empathy. All day long. DR 4/slashing at 2nd. And no ooze except "unconscious or in an area of antimagic." ;)
Seems like their practically missing a whole page or two from the book to make this one work. (without having to make some assumptions.)
I dunno, maybe you just need to reword to make it work. I took a crack at revising the shifter to what I thought was a workable state and then after looking at your comment I got to thinking maybe I exceeded the original's page count. Turns out I didn't and it was close to the same length to my surprise.
Check it out: Yeah I'm kinda shilling my shifter revision..
Seems like their practically missing a whole page or two from the book to make this one work. (without having to make some assumptions.)I dunno, maybe you just need to reword to make it work. I took a crack at revising the shifter to what I thought was a workable state and then after looking at your comment I got to thinking maybe I exceeded the original's page count. Turns out I didn't and it was close to the same length to my surprise.
Check it out: Yeah I'm kinda shilling my shifter revision..
Some are good some I don't think I would do.
The ooze one would need a lot of work even with my interpretation since you cna't use magic items and magic items are a pretty big part of what the game is balanced around.
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I"m thinking about this and wouldn't losing equipment still make it unplayable at high levels?
Ah, but you see, at higher levels you are permanently in various other forms (including humanoid, so you can use items), and avoid the base ooze shape as much as you can.
Because, yes, the designer also confirmed that the base ooze shape isn't what the oozemorph is about - it's just a penalty. You are supposed to avoid it as much as possible:
The ooze form isn't a benefit, it's effectively a "bad thing" that the oozemorph manages to make the best of. In their natural, blobby state they're at a distinct disadvantage in a lot of ways. This is why their damage reduction and compression abilities still work outside of their ooze form. Outside of getting a (slow) climb speed, they're very vulnerable in that state.
The oozemorph is mean to excel when in humanoid (or others, depending on level) form, utilizing damage reduction, compression, and morphic weaponry (on top of the remaining shifter abilities).
Dropping into blob form might be able to be creatively used to good effect, but it is primarily a drawback and should be viewed as such.
That said, oozemorphs can absolutely benefit from ioun stones in both forms.
OK Then I feel it should give a SUBSTANTIAL bonus to non ooze things then. That is so... I don't even.... Ill just go with in the company of oozes then. F it.
Ok so I do at least retain most of the abilities from ooze form. I guess that is something. Hmm heck maybe you are suppose to just stay in a bucket most of the day... Its almost an anti-shifter archetype.
OK Then I feel it should give a SUBSTANTIAL bonus to non ooze things then. That is so... I don't even.... Ill just go with in the company of oozes then. F it.
LOL You have JUST gotten to where I was a week ago. That was almost word for word my reaction. ;)
Ok so let me try and rationalize this out. I am an ooze for all purposes the party keeps me in a bucket and drags me around. at 1st level I can shift into a offensive human (or what have you) form and be useful for (how long) a minute? now at least if it my interpretations you can follow the part around with your own slime feet. Now wouldn't I have to get dressed and get my armor and other items on every time I shifted?
I think I at least understand what he was going for but good grief.
Ok so let me try and rationalize this out. I am an ooze for all purposes the party keeps me in a bucket and drags me around. at 1st level I can shift into a offensive human (or what have you) form and be useful for (how long) a minute? now at least if it my interpretations you can follow the part around with your own slime feet. Now wouldn't I have to get dressed and get my armor and other items on every time I shifted?
I think I at least understand what he was going for but good grief.
Hour not min. He was thinking that items should meld with you [they just become non-functional] but unfortunately it didn't see print.
Once you hit around 4-6th you can actually shift a few time for long enough to do something for an extended time. the first few levels though seem pretty brutal.
PS: I should note that when you alter self, beast shape or giant shape you pick any form you want: you never have to take your old humanoid form.
You get to take non-ooze shapes 1 time per two levels, minimum one, each time for 1 hour per level (and get saving throws to prolong that time).
You can still attack in ooze form.
So, you're not entirely useless, just... Meh.
So, you're not entirely useless, just... Meh.
Unless you have a pet druid following you around incorporeal stuffs going to be a real problem.
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Well, remember: The oozemorph isn't actually supposed to be played as an ooze. You're supposed to shape into something useful like a humanoid or a giant and beat stuff up.
Yeah, ghosts are impossible in base ooze from, but everyone has trouble with incorporeals at the beginning, and in the late game, you're only supposed to revert to ooze when you sleep.
Also, you get to climb at level 4... But with a fitting base form, you've already been flying the entire time!
You qualify for Eldritch Claws so you can get DR magic at 7th level.
Thats way too late. Had an adventure yesterday where we had a pair of shadows at level 3.
I gueese you would buy potions of magic fang and have someone pour it into you?
"where is your mouth? I don't want to.."
zap.. thud
"you know what i stopped caring" BLORK
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Well, remember: The oozemorph isn't actually supposed to be played as an ooze. You're supposed to shape into something useful like a humanoid or a giant and beat stuff up.
Soon, probably:
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For what its worth, Herolab(which is Paizo official) gives the base ooze the stat bonuses and movement rates of the chosen base shift race but none of the other racial specials apply in ooze form.
So a dwarf shifter has +2 con and wis but a base move of 20' while in ooze form, the merfolk has 5' land and 50' swim and a syrinx would have 30' land with a 60' fly.
Also it doesn't seem that choosing a shape-shifting race would'nt apply because you only have the racial abilities when you're not an ooze. So your example Kitsune could change shape as much as Kitsune allowed within their allotted time out of slime form but once they cannot maintain shifted form they melt like any other ooze.
This literally makes no sense. Why/how pick random things that are included or excluded? Secondly, you're not required to take on your old race, so why would you get your dwarf abilities when you change into an elf? You aren't regaining your old shape with this ability after all but any you can take with alter self. NOTE: an outsider, like tieflings, CAN'T retake their old form as alter self can only do humanoid. So when can it use its prehensile tail?
I'm going to assume someone at Herolab threw darts at a board to figure out what it got because if that's how it works, someone's going to have to explain the reasoning behind it because I don't see it.
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It seems Herolab is aligning with what Robert said, you lose what it says you lose and gain what it says you gain.
But it DOESN'T SAY what you lose or gain! THAT'S THE ISSUE!!! NO LAND SPEED GAINED BECAUSE IT DOES NOT MENTION IT. NO STAT BONUSES BECAUSE THEY AREN'T MENTIONED! It's trying to have it both ways: it's getting some things it never mentions but not other things it never mentions for no reason given...
I feel like I'm yelling at a wall... "you lose what it says you lose and gain what it says you gain" is only relevant if there is actual rules for what you gain and lose...
So please Risky, point out and quote where the rule Herolab used for what was lost and gained to get speeds/stats but nothing else from race.
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It doesn't say you lose your land speed, either.
It still assumes that you used to be a member of your base race (and you could have picked it up as multiclass later on), so that is still the basis, which is only modified (permanently) by your "new base shape".
I know, I know, that's not how Polymorph works, but here? It does.
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It doesn't say you lose your land speed, either.
It still assumes that you used to be a member of your base race (and you could have picked it up as multiclass later on), so that is still the basis, which is only modified (permanently) by your "new base shape".
I know, I know, that's not how Polymorph works, but here? It does.
This, basically. It doesn’t say you lose your speed or stats.