That is what I did ^^^
but I can see the mistake and it's pretty annoying that it slipped through.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
An even less radical alternative is to assume there was an error and use something reasonable until they correct it.
Even if we do, that doesn't mean it isn't an error and that we should pretend it doesn't exist.
Secondly, what is "something reasonable" is up for debate: on one side, using the old race runs into logical issue of now non-existent limbs modifying your speed. On the other, you making up a base blob speed out of whole cloth, basically picking a number out of the ether at random that sounds good. Neither seems good/right/acceptable IMO.
So can I make up a houserule to make it work? Sure I can. Should I have to? no. Should I ask for it to be fixed so it actually functions the same way at whatever table I go to? You bet I should.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
An even less radical alternative is to assume there was an error and use something reasonable until they correct it.
That is exactly what most people would do, but you have to realize that that would be a houserule until errata was made to fix the error. Some people are arguing that their patch to correct the error (in the ooze case that being borrowing the land speed of the original form) are RAW and no such errata is required. Graystone and others are pointing out that, no, although reasonable as an assumption those leaps are not RAW and there should be errata made to clarify the ambiguity and so no one has to wonder which table is going to use which interpretation.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Going with RAI is not house ruling.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Going with RAI is not house ruling.
It is when it contradicts the written rules. It's also not a constant across various tables. We aren't talking about a rule that has different reading but one that only has one reading: no defined speed. Giving it the speed of its former form goes against the explicit rules of polymorph effects.
In this case, there is LITERALLY no listed speed. As such, allowing the ooze from any kind of movement is a house rule [a ruling outside the existing rules].
EDIT: We also don't know that intent of anyone but the author of the archetype. As the Dev's have had different intents from the authors before, I'm not sure how anyone can claim a correct RAI until we hear from the Dev's what that is.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Going with RAI is not house ruling.
It most certainly is! If it varies by table it is by definition a house rule. Until someone can point to a Paizo official statement or correct ion one way or another, it will be open to interpretation variance which is a problem for groups that try to stick to RAW as closely as possible.
An example is getting a bite attack with adopted and tusked traits. RAI is obviously that tusked is meant for orcs, but RAW anyone can take it. Following RAI in this case is very much a house rule.
Rhedyn, I'm curious. Let's say a new monster was printed, a type of large troll for example, where the movement speed was left blank. What would you say its movement speed is?
Maybe to force you to consider it in a game, a player summons that monster and tells it to move toward an enemy. What do you tell that player as a GM?
You can't summon that monster.
If it doesn't have a working interpretation, it doesn't exist.
So if you had a class feature to turn into that troll which explicitly said you gain the troll's speed, would you say that that class feature doesn't have a working interpretation?
Edit: To be clear, I'm not trying to trap you or anything. I just want to map your thought process and where the disconnect with graystone is located.
Where does it say you gain the oozes speed in Fluidic Body?
Graystone is pulling from general rules to remove oozemorphs movement options/mouth. Those aren't in the ability. It's a misapplication of general rules.
Your troll example doesn't apply here.
Going with RAI is not house ruling.It most certainly is! If it varies by table it is by definition a house rule. Until someone can point to a Paizo official statement or correct ion one way or another, it will be open to interpretation variance which is a problem for groups that try to stick to RAW as closely as possible.
An example is getting a bite attack with adopted and tusked traits. RAI is obviously that tusked is meant for orcs, but RAW anyone can take it. Following RAI in this case is very much a house rule.
I personally feel that RAI is pointless. You are only getting what the dev thinks the rules should have been on a given day. They can't remember their intent at time of writing.
Devs can clarify ambiguous language and that is moderately useful unless what they think words mean isn't RAW.
But RAW is actually more flexible than RAI because language is interpretive and as the rules build on each other, the variance only grows.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Rhedyn, I'm curious. Let's say a new monster was printed, a type of large troll for example, where the movement speed was left blank. What would you say its movement speed is?
Maybe to force you to consider it in a game, a player summons that monster and tells it to move toward an enemy. What do you tell that player as a GM?
You can't summon that monster.
If it doesn't have a working interpretation, it doesn't exist.
So if you had a class feature to turn into that troll which explicitly said you gain the troll's speed, would you say that that class feature doesn't have a working interpretation?
Edit: To be clear, I'm not trying to trap you or anything. I just want to map your thought process and where the disconnect with graystone is located.
Where does it say you gain the oozes speed in Fluidic Body?
Graystone is pulling from general rules to remove oozemorphs movement options/mouth. Those aren't in the ability. It's a misapplication of general rules.
Your troll example doesn't apply here.
Believe it or not, general rules do apply in most cases. It takes a specific rule to override the general. And since there is no specific rule saying, "you keep your previous base form's land speed," you go with the general polymorph rule that "your speed is replaced with your new form's land speed."
And of COURSE we're pulling from general rules. That's what you do, unless there is a specific rule that applies to the situation at hand- and, outside of houseruling, there isn't. And, for the record, it is in the ability. It says, "This is treated as a polymorph effect," meaning that you do use the polymorph rules unless specifically stated. And there is no specific statement saying you keep your speed, so you default to the general polymorph rules. Because that is how rules work.
How, exactly, does the troll example not apply?
Graystone is pulling from general rules to remove oozemorphs movement options/mouth. Those aren't in the ability. It's a misapplication of general rules.
Your troll example doesn't apply here.
This is why I'm using a hypothetical troll, with a hypothetical class that EXPLICITLY tells you to use the movement speed of this troll that has a blank movement speed line. Would you tell the player that they cannot use that transformation ability because it references an invalid movement speed?
Forget about the whole ooze thing for this example.
Daedalus, you can't persuade me your right because your interpretation causes errors and mine doesn't.
You don't have a valid interpretation. No argument can make it right.
Graystone is pulling from general rules to remove oozemorphs movement options/mouth. Those aren't in the ability. It's a misapplication of general rules.
Your troll example doesn't apply here.
This is why I'm using a hypothetical troll, with a hypothetical class that EXPLICITLY tells you to use the movement speed of this troll that has a blank movement speed line. Would you tell the player that they cannot use that transformation ability because it references an invalid movement speed?
Forget about the whole ooze thing for this example.
Of course. There is no interpretation that provides no error forming results. Thus the ability doesn't exist.
This is an off topic discussion though because it has nothing to do with shifters or their archetypes.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Daedalus, you can't persuade me your right because your interpretation causes errors and mine doesn't.
You don't have a valid interpretation. No argument can make it right.
What makes my interpretation invalid? The fact it returns an error?
If I say, "angry starfishes are always pacifists," and you counter with the fact that doesn't makes sense, does that mean your interpretation is invalid? No. It just means my sentence doesn't make sense. Now, I could say that it does make sense because "angry starfishes" is actually the name of a red animal, and according to this logic, that is the valid interpretation- despite the fact everything within the statement pointing to an invalid situation.
Just because you can draw a conclusion from an inconclusive piece of data doesn't make it right.
|
| 8 people marked this as a favorite. |
Rheydon, this is a game with rules. They are following those rules and reaching an error. You are not following the rules which is why you are not reaching an error. That rules say to do it the way they are. Your "interpretation" is probably what the author intended, but it's not what the rules say. That's why this is important, because it means that the archetype does need clarification because the rules lead to an error.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Graystone is pulling from general rules to remove oozemorphs movement options/mouth. Those aren't in the ability. It's a misapplication of general rules.
Your troll example doesn't apply here.
This is why I'm using a hypothetical troll, with a hypothetical class that EXPLICITLY tells you to use the movement speed of this troll that has a blank movement speed line. Would you tell the player that they cannot use that transformation ability because it references an invalid movement speed?
Forget about the whole ooze thing for this example.
Of course. There is no interpretation that provides no error forming results. Thus the ability doesn't exist.
This is an off topic discussion though because it has nothing to do with shifters or their archetypes.
So, by that statement, the entire oozemorph class (or at least Oozy form) doesn't exist, because it's transforming into the hypothetical troll.
Rheydon, this is a game with rules. They are following those rules and reaching an error. You are not following the rules which is why you are not reaching an error. That rules say to do it the way they are. Your "interpretation" is probably what the author intended, but it's not what the rules say. That's why this is important, because it means that the archetype does need clarification because the rules lead to an error.
They are houseruling.
It's why their rules don't work.
|
|
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Rheydon, this is a game with rules. They are following those rules and reaching an error. You are not following the rules which is why you are not reaching an error. That rules say to do it the way they are. Your "interpretation" is probably what the author intended, but it's not what the rules say. That's why this is important, because it means that the archetype does need clarification because the rules lead to an error.They are houseruling.
It's why their rules don't work.
Nope they're following the polymorph rules for something that says it's a polymorph effect. You're ignoring them which is the houserule.
Just because it produces an error doesn't make it a houserule. It means the ability was written poorly by someone who didn't understand the rules.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Rheydon, this is a game with rules. They are following those rules and reaching an error. You are not following the rules which is why you are not reaching an error. That rules say to do it the way they are. Your "interpretation" is probably what the author intended, but it's not what the rules say. That's why this is important, because it means that the archetype does need clarification because the rules lead to an error.They are houseruling.
It's why their rules don't work.
What is our houserule? That general rules hold true unless specifically called out as not applying?
You are the one houseruling here, that the general rule does not hold true. All it would take is a single sentence, "you keep the speed of your previous base form" to override the general rule and not return an error.
You guys are overriding specific abilities with general rules to produce an error. Pathfinder doesn't let you do that ergo, you are houseruling.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Show me the specific clause that overrides how polymorph rules work?
The clause is simple:
"Aliens."
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Show me the specific clause that overrides how polymorph rules work?
I've asked this several times but Rhedyn keeps going on tangents instead. It's about breathing, or the inability of rules to to not work or something else but NEVER an actual rule to back up her houserule.
Rhedyn basic explanation is the new book is perfect so if you can't figure an ability, then you're doing it wrong. There is NO room for the ability to be the cause or that it's a mistake or poorly written.
Of course. There is no interpretation that provides no error forming results. Thus the ability doesn't exist.
This is an off topic discussion though because it has nothing to do with shifters or their archetypes.
It's not off topic. How you deal with the hypothetical troll tells us that you wouldn't jump to the conclusion that it carries over your original form's speed, which is what you argue should be done for oozemorph.
Why would you ignore the general polymorph rules for the oozemorph but not the hypothetical explicit rule for the troll morph?
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Show me the specific clause that overrides how polymorph rules work?The clause is simple:
"Aliens."
Yep, “A History Channel Thanksgiving” explains it all. ;)
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
These arguments are pointless. Until Paizo comes out with an official FAQ/Errata for it, the Shifter class in general is just another under powered class that doesn't come close to its hype and peoples hopes for it, and the Oozemorph archetype in particular is an unplayable blob without house ruling to even make it semi-functional.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Going with RAI is not house ruling.It most certainly is! If it varies by table it is by definition a house rule.
Then by that definition raw is a house rule as well since its varying from the RAI people. RAW will just as easily vary from another raw interpretation.
You can't tout the value of consistency without creating the problem you say you want to avoid.
| 8 people marked this as a favorite. |
I feel like RAI and RAW are the wrong way to think about things. The rules are written in natural language, not math or code or something completely unambiguous. Natural language always requires interpretation because as far as we can tell there's no empirical access to any sort of metaphysical sense of meaning. The most common forms of interpretation in something like this game are either to appeal to an expert (the GM, the PDT, the dictionary etc.) to get them to explain it to you, or to come to an understanding shared amongst everybody the rule affects.
There are a variety of valid standards one can use to arrive at an interpetation, including but not limited to- verisimilitude, consistency with understanding of other rules, ensuring a mechanic is functional, perceived balance, etc. One can prefer some standards to others, but that does not invalidate other people's preferences or interpretations.
I wouldn't say "Here's how we understand the rule" is "house ruling" even if it does differ from how some other people understand that same rule. To me a "house rule" is "we understand that it's supposed to be [foo], but we like it better as [bar]."
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Going with RAI is not house ruling.It most certainly is! If it varies by table it is by definition a house rule.Then by that definition raw is a house rule as well since its varying from the RAI people. RAW will just as easily vary from another raw interpretation.
You can't tout the value of consistency without creating the problem you say you want to avoid.
The rules as written do not change except by errata. How those rules are interpreted can vary by table (although far less than you seem to indicate. No one is arguing about daggers doing 1d4 damage), but what you're saying is that a person can say "I'm making a change to the rules because I believe this more closely matches RAI" and that wouldn't be considered a house rule.
RAI is not written down anywhere, changes based on the weather, and is up for debate, so it cannot be the basis for how the game functions. If you choose to regard RAI as law, you're making a table specific decision which is by definition a house rule.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The rules as written do not change except by errata.
Neither do one of those black and white pictures where you can see a face or a pair of vases , but if the context of the picture is a pottery barn catalog it really should help you decide what item B you can buy for 46.99
To me a "house rule" is "we understand that it's supposed to be [foo], but we like it better as [bar]."
That's what we've been dealing with though. The rules clearly say [foo](changing form means changing speed) but some say it MUST be [bar](speed of shape you aren't in anymore) because [foo] doesn't make sense and NOT because [bar] is an actual rule.
Nowhere in the oozemorph's ability does it grant a speed or grant the ability to retain the speed of it's old form. Polymorph explains that speed is based off form and the ability acts as a polymorph effect. I can't see how saying it has a speed is anything other than a houserule.
|
|
Neither do one of those black and white pictures where you can see a face or a pair of vases , but if the context of the picture is a pottery barn catalog it really should help you decide what item B you can buy for 46.99
The rules are not a Rorschach test. There are 2 ways to interpret them...RAW, or house rule.
I like to use the PFS guidelines as a metric for this type of thing. The way things stand right now, they can not make the Oozemorph PFS legal without a FAQ/Errata to fix/clarify it.
The rules are not a Rorschach test. There are 2 ways to interpret them...RAW, or house rule.You say that in a thread where people have done nothing but argue about what's RAW for like three pages now. Clearly it's not that straightforward.
Words being ambiguous and imprecise is basically the running theme of the rules forum for the past... however long ago the rules forum was created, basically.
We haven't been arguing over anything "ambiguous and imprecise" though. This issue IS "straightforward". Oozemorph clearly doesn't have a listed speed or a way to figure one out and the other side of the argument can't/will not produce any actual factual basis for their side of the argument. It's one thing if we have an actual difference in reading but that's not what we have here. What we have is someone reading the rules and saying 'if it doesn't make sense that it's ok to break the rules to fix it and that's RAW'.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The rules as written do not change except by errata.Neither do one of those black and white pictures where you can see a face or a pair of vases , but if the context of the picture is a pottery barn catalog it really should help you decide what item B you can buy for 46.99
I'm having trouble seeing how taking a sharpie and adding "The oozemorph retains the movement speed of its original form, as an exception to the polymorph rules" relates to face vase perception.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The rules are not a Rorschach test. There are 2 ways to interpret them...RAW, or house rule.
There is raw, the other raw, rai, and then there are house rules.
The idea that raw can only give you one answer is objectively false.
I don't know if anything in english works that way, but pathfinder certainly isn't it. you can almost always plinko your way from A to B to C to D and then from Z to Y to X to Not D.
Aristotelian logic simply doesn't work in a system this complex. Use Bayesian. It's a lot more accurate to what the words get clarified to, and it matches the natural language that the rules are written in. One of the ideas to put on the list there is that abilities do something, another is that abilities do something.
Deriding a more accurate view of the rules, that the authors have themselves said is how they're written, with a proven track record of being more accurate, as somehow less the rules than the allegedly objective raw is silly.
@waters
That’s because it doesn’t really.
The rules are not a Rorschach test. There are 2 ways to interpret them...RAW, or house rule.
There is raw, the other raw, rai, and then there are house rules.
The idea that raw can only give you one answer is objectively false.
I don't know if anything in english works that way, but pathfinder certainly isn't it. you can almost always plinko your way from A to B to C to D and then from Z to Y to X to Not D.Aristotelian logic simply doesn't work in a system this complex. Use Bayesian. It's a lot more accurate to what the words get clarified to, and it matches the natural language that the rules are written in. One of the ideas to put on the list there is that abilities do something, another is that abilities do something.
Deriding a more accurate view of the rules, that the authors have themselves said is how they're written, with a proven track record of being more accurate, as somehow less the rules than the allegedly objective raw is silly.
So can you explain a RAW way to figure out an oozemorphs speed? What is the RAW reason for it? What is the RAI that a form would/could be influenced by another forms limbs or lack of them? If THIS issue is ambiguous, please explain how.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm having trouble seeing how taking a sharpie and adding "The oozemorph retains the movement speed of its original form, as an exception to the polymorph rules" relates to face vase perception.
Because there's arguably no exception to the polymorph rules here. There's no bestiary listing for a "a protoplasmic blob that has the
same volume and weight" to check out its movement speed, so the only movement speed it has is the creature.And you can write in the rulebook with a sharpie? I need to use one of those pigment liner technical pens....
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm having trouble seeing how taking a sharpie and adding "The oozemorph retains the movement speed of its original form, as an exception to the polymorph rules" relates to face vase perception.Because there's arguably no exception to the polymorph rules here. There's no bestiary listing for a "a protoplasmic blob that has the
same volume and weight" to check out its movement speed, so the only movement speed it has is the creature.And you can write in the rulebook with a sharpie? I need to use one of those pigment liner technical pens....
But it doesn't have that movement speed. The only movement speed it has... is that it doesn't have one. It's not longer whatever race you wrote on your sheet, it is now a oozething.
And wasn't the oozething form supposed to be a drawback? Maybe being unable to move in that form is intended as part of the drawback.
|
I'm having trouble seeing how taking a sharpie and adding "The oozemorph retains the movement speed of its original form, as an exception to the polymorph rules" relates to face vase perception.Because there's arguably no exception to the polymorph rules here. There's no bestiary listing for a "a protoplasmic blob that has the
same volume and weight" to check out its movement speed, so the only movement speed it has is the creature.And you can write in the rulebook with a sharpie? I need to use one of those pigment liner technical pens....
But it doesn't have that movement speed. The only movement speed it has... is that it doesn't have one. It's not longer whatever race you wrote on your sheet, it is now a oozething.
And wasn't the oozething form supposed to be a drawback? Maybe being unable to move in that form is intended as part of the drawback.
Oozemorph doesn’t override your race. A Human Oozemorph would be Humanoid (Human, Ooze).
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Because there's arguably no exception to the polymorph rules here. There's no bestiary listing for a "a protoplasmic blob that has the
same volume and weight" to check out its movement speed, so the only movement speed it has is the creature.
Yep, that's a house rule. You looked over the rule, noticed that it had no speed and decided to ignore the rule in place to give it back it's old speed. Total houserule.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Oozemorph doesn’t override your race. A Human Oozemorph would be Humanoid (Human, Ooze).
I'm having trouble seeing how taking a sharpie and adding "The oozemorph retains the movement speed of its original form, as an exception to the polymorph rules" relates to face vase perception.Because there's arguably no exception to the polymorph rules here. There's no bestiary listing for a "a protoplasmic blob that has the
same volume and weight" to check out its movement speed, so the only movement speed it has is the creature.And you can write in the rulebook with a sharpie? I need to use one of those pigment liner technical pens....
But it doesn't have that movement speed. The only movement speed it has... is that it doesn't have one. It's not longer whatever race you wrote on your sheet, it is now a oozething.
And wasn't the oozething form supposed to be a drawback? Maybe being unable to move in that form is intended as part of the drawback.
Moot. Type doesn't give you your speed, form does.
|
|
Yep, that's a house rule. You looked over the rule, noticed that it had no speed and decided to ignore the rule in place to give it back it's old speed. Total houserule.Because there's arguably no exception to the polymorph rules here. There's no bestiary listing for a "a protoplasmic blob that has the
same volume and weight" to check out its movement speed, so the only movement speed it has is the creature.
Giving it the speed it already has is not a house rule nor ignoring rules. Mark pretty much confirmed as much in the UW thread.
You are overthinking this.
Oozemorph doesn’t override your race. A Human Oozemorph would be Humanoid (Human, Ooze).
I'm having trouble seeing how taking a sharpie and adding "The oozemorph retains the movement speed of its original form, as an exception to the polymorph rules" relates to face vase perception.Because there's arguably no exception to the polymorph rules here. There's no bestiary listing for a "a protoplasmic blob that has the
same volume and weight" to check out its movement speed, so the only movement speed it has is the creature.And you can write in the rulebook with a sharpie? I need to use one of those pigment liner technical pens....
But it doesn't have that movement speed. The only movement speed it has... is that it doesn't have one. It's not longer whatever race you wrote on your sheet, it is now a oozething.
And wasn't the oozething form supposed to be a drawback? Maybe being unable to move in that form is intended as part of the drawback.
I never said you didn't count as whatever race you wrote on your sheet (which is what type does) but that you aren't a whatever race you wrote down.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
That's what we've been dealing with though. The rules clearly say [foo](changing form means changing speed) but some say it MUST be [bar](speed of shape you aren't in anymore) because [foo] doesn't make sense and NOT because [bar] is an actual rule.
Nowhere in the oozemorph's ability does it grant a speed or grant the ability to retain the speed of it's old form. Polymorph explains that speed is based off form and the ability acts as a polymorph effect. I can't see how saying it has a speed is anything other than a houserule.
I feel like this is specifically an issue because "making sense" is really important to cultivating a shared fantasy that is needed to keep a tabletop roleplaying game moving; since it precludes constantly stopping to resolve "wait, what?" and the like. That an elf with long-limbs that turns into an ooze moves seven times faster on land than a triton who was turned into an ooze, and a strix that was turned into an ooze can still fly, despite all of them being basically the same kind of transclucent medium-sized puddle is nonsensical and indeed a bit silly. This needs changing, and I hope will be addressed with errata.
The other issue that comes up is that it's not really a rule in the book that makes a merfolk ooze so slow, it's an implication lead by a lack of a specific rule in the book that leads us to default to other rules in other books (which were possibly written by different people.) So it's not really even clear to me what the intent actually is. Maybe they just don't want people to play Merfolk Oozemorphs?
Yep, that's a house rule. You looked over the rule, noticed that it had no speed and decided to ignore the rule in place to give it back it's old speed. Total houserule.Because there's arguably no exception to the polymorph rules here. There's no bestiary listing for a "a protoplasmic blob that has the
same volume and weight" to check out its movement speed, so the only movement speed it has is the creature.Giving it the speed it already has is not a house rule nor ignoring rules. Mark pretty much confirmed as much in the UW thread.
You are overthinking this.
It doesn't HAVE any speed to already have. It clearly by the rules has an unknown speed.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
To those talking about RAW being up to interpretation: When RAW is ambiguous (as does happen on occasion) yes this is true. And as long as the text supports all of those views then they're all technically correct until clarification is issued. But oftentimes the RAW is perfectly clear. Can anyone really argue the RAW of power attack? No.
The oozemorph is a mess. But it clearly says it is a polymorph effect and the polymorph rules tell us that we take the base speed of our new form. Except our new form doesn't have a base speed listed. And the oozemorph doesn't have specific text to tell us that we retain the speed of our race or otherwise overiding the general rules for polymorph effects, so we default to the normal polymorph rules.
So by RAW, yes, it is 100% broken as written and needs clarification.
From dev posts we can assume that it was supposed to continue using the speed of it's race, but that's not what the rules currently say.