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That is only because the size rules need to keep growing. need colossal 2 up to colossal 333,000 (and yes the stealth penalties doubled every category.)
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No. Sorry. Light still works the way it does in the real worldI'd like to think that, but pathfinder and real world physics often don't see eye to eye. After all, we're in a world where most people can't see the sun because of the range penalties...
The sun is a light source and thus automatically fails it's stealth check. It's auto spotted.
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No. Sorry. Light still works the way it does in the real worldI'd like to think that, but pathfinder and real world physics often don't see eye to eye. After all, we're in a world where most people can't see the sun because of the range penalties...The sun is a light source and thus automatically fails it's stealth check. It's auto spotted.
Unfortunately not.
The dc for noticing a visible creature is 0.The modifier to spot something is +1/10ft.
The size penalties to stealth do not matter here, because it is not hiding as you rightly say.
That dc is really really high.
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This brings up another loophole.
It is harder to spot a collosal creature that is clearly visible (DC 0) than it is to spot a collosal creature actively hiding if it has no ranks in stealth (-16 Stealth).
The collosal creature would need atleast a +16 to stealth before size modifiers to be as difficult to spot when it is actually hiding versus when it is standing in an empty field
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Some maths
The sun is 4.90814E+11 ft away, DC to spot is 49081366400
Size modifier, by extrapolating the existing table gives us a stealth penalty of -132.
Yeah, that check is not being made.
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No. Sorry. Light still works the way it does in the real worldI'd like to think that, but pathfinder and real world physics often don't see eye to eye. After all, we're in a world where most people can't see the sun because of the range penalties...The sun is a light source and thus automatically fails it's stealth check. It's auto spotted.
Stealth isn't required to not notice something.
Notice a visible creature: DC 0 [NOT stealthed]Favorable conditions [it's a light source]: –2 DC
Distance to the source, object, or creature: +1/10 feet [so + 49 billion, rounded down to the nearest billion]
So, a mere 49 billion DC perception and you find out there is a sun!!! :P
That is only because the size rules need to keep growing. need colossal 2 up to colossal 333,000 (and yes the stealth penalties doubled every category.)
They kind of do but only for stealth. Normal everyday noticing is static. It's the same DC to notice a mosquito 100' away as it is a flying continent 20 miles long.
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My house rule would be that you can see the bloody sun.
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Yep, if you're in the middle of a 200' radius lightless empty room and someone is holding a torch 150' away, you can't see the torch. Amazing, isn't it?If the darkness is a magical darkness, you certainly won't see the torch. If the darkness within the room is ambient (i.e., without windows and doors closed, etc), you'll see the torch, but the distance will preclude you from gaining much other useful intel until you get closer. For example, a GM might set a DC for you to guess which square the torch is in because you can't be sure.
That isn't quite true. Humans are quite adept at judging size and distance even through distances of darkness. My understanding is that it has something to do with the movement of the eye, as well as triangulating with binocular vision. The angles and amount of movement are both used to judge distance. E.g. a human with a 5 foot eye height sees a 5 foot object 100 feet away and another 50 foot object 500 feet away. The objects will appear to be the same size, but because the further object is taller, the eyes have to look up and down from the level whereas the closer object is at eye level or below. The angle and apparent size together give the brain information to judge actual size and distance even without two eyes working together. I would say if you are close enough to shoot it with an arrow, then you would be close enough to judge which 5 foot square it was in.
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My house rule would be that you can see the bloody sun.
Remember, we're talking about rules people DON'T see used. Most games allow you to see the sun even though the system tells you that it's impossible.
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I would say that I don't use the 10ft/-1 rule to often.
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By RAW, the maximum range for a composite longbow is 1100 feet, but you need a Perception DC of 110 to spot somebody standing and waving in a featureless field at that distance.
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I have noticed recently people rarely use perception properly.
We are currently involved in a dungeon crawl in one of our games.
We opened a door onto a battle.
We should have heard that through the door.
DC to hear is -10 (sound of battle) +2 (closed door) +5 (Distance) +5 (Maybe we are distracted) for a total DC of 2.
Literally the next door we opened we opened onto a group of enemies that smelled so bad we had to make fort saves or be neasueated.
Dc for smelling garbage is again -10. So again a total dc of +2.
The gm ignored this in both instances
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By RAW, the maximum range for a composite longbow is 1100 feet, but you need a Perception DC of 110 to spot somebody standing and waving in a featureless field at that distance.
To be fair, if they had a spyglass it would only be DC55
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By RAW, the maximum range for a composite longbow is 1100 feet, but you need a Perception DC of 110 to spot somebody standing and waving in a featureless field at that distance.To be fair, if they had a spyglass it would only be DC55
But then they wouldn't be able to fire the bow unless they had more than two hands.
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mount the spyglass to the bow like a scope.
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I have noticed recently people rarely use perception properly.
We are currently involved in a dungeon crawl in one of our games.We opened a door onto a battle.
We should have heard that through the door.
DC to hear is -10 (sound of battle) +2 (closed door) +5 (Distance) +5 (Maybe we are distracted) for a total DC of 2.Literally the next door we opened we opened onto a group of enemies that smelled so bad we had to make fort saves or be neasueated.
Dc for smelling garbage is again -10. So again a total dc of +2.The gm ignored this in both instances
Usually this is a sign that the GM is only checking what's in there once you open the door.
Dungeon rooms are a bit like Schroedinger's cat; until you take a look, anything could be there.
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mount the spyglass to the bow like a scope.
But longbows fire in an arc and spyglasses look in a line. When you start to pick the angle to fire at you lose sight of your target.
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Hey if we are saying that I can't see the guy on an open field because of RAW then I feel that your being unreasonable saying The spyglass has to see in a straight line.
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Hey if we are saying that I can't see the guy on an open field because of RAW then I feel that your being unreasonable saying The spyglass has to see in a straight line.
"Great" said the munchkin "spyglasses can see round corners" :-)
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Hey where does the raw say it can't?
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Some form of adjustable mount, so you can get the bow to roughly the right angle while keeping the spyglass pointed at the target?mount the spyglass to the bow like a scope.But longbows fire in an arc and spyglasses look in a line. When you start to pick the angle to fire at you lose sight of your target.
The difficulty would be having the spyglass lined up with the target and the bowman's eye as the bow changed angle. Possible, yes, perhaps with some sort of gimbal system that could be locked for elevation changes. It would probably be a move action to change the sight's position and the odd weighting of the weapon would almost certainly mean it would need an exotic weapon proficiency.
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"In an area of bright light, all characters can see clearly."
"In an area of dim light, a character can see somewhat."
"In areas of darkness, creatures without darkvision are effectively blinded."
Actualy, since "see" is a transitive verb, the location may refer to either subject or object - the sentences just aren't clear. It is possible, and undoubtedly intended, that they mean:
All characters can clearly see objects in an area of bright light.
A character can somewhat see objects in an area of dim light.
The last one, admittedly, is very unfortunately worded, and I have no doubt that RAW is different than RAI, which I believe is:
Creatures without darkvision are effectively blinded for the purposes of seeing objects in areas of darkness.
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Hey where does the raw say it can't?
Very true, in fact by RAW, you can stand against a 1 foot thick wall and perceive what's on the other side by taking a DC10 check.
Brave Sir Robin walks up to the wall and rests his head against it. "The barracks are beyond this wall he whispers"
"How can you tell?" asks Marvello the Magnificient
"There are bunk beds pressed against the wall"
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I agree with you completely Adjoint.
The RAI is certainly not what is written.
The reason I see that what I posited as RAW can easily be read that way, is because of the last quote.
It spells out the effect on the character which implies the others do as well.
All characters can clearly see objects in an area of bright light.
A character can somewhat see objects in an area of dim light.
The funny thing is that this is still ambiguos.
Can they see the object clearly when the object is in the area of bright/dim light, or when the character is in that area.Basically the "In an area of --- light" can refer to location of the subject or object of the sentence, IE the Character, or what they are looking at.
The light rules are weird, and hard, and confusing
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Very true, in fact by RAW, you can stand against a 1 foot thick wall and perceive what's on the other side by taking a DC10 check.
Isn't DC 10 just the base DC though? I mean, the beds are effectively invisible and immobile, which would give at least +40 modifier.
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Very true, in fact by RAW, you can stand against a 1 foot thick wall and perceive what's on the other side by taking a DC10 check.Isn't DC 10 just the base DC though? I mean, the beds are effectively invisible and immobile, which would give at least +40 modifier.
Not being visible and being invisible are very different.
Only invisibility as the spell provides that +40 to DC, and only against stealth checks.So unless the bunk beds are actively trying to hide they don't get the bonus.
"If a check is required, a stationary invisible creature has a +40 bonus on its Stealth checks."
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The light rules are weird, and hard, and confusing
Yeah, but the first two sentences are just ambiguous. Only the third is openly counter-intuitive and clearly not what was intended.
That being said, if the darkness was created magically, even if it is not a deeper darkness, I treat it as eliminating all normal light passing through the area, even if the light source is outside the area of darkness. So a creature in an area of magically created darkness is effectively blinded.
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Not being visible and being invisible are very different.
Only invisibility as the spell provides that +40 to DC, and only against stealth checks.
So unless the bunk beds are actively trying to hide they don't get the bonus.
"If a check is required, a stationary invisible creature has a +40 bonus on its Stealth checks."
The GM is within rules to add appropriate modifier to the DC anyway. It is said
"Perception is also used to notice fine details in the environment. The DC to notice such details varies depending upon distance, the environment, and how noticeable the detail is. The following table gives a number of guidelines."
The table gives only guidelines. Also note that the wall provides only a modifier to the DC, +10/foot of thickness. What is the base DC that is modified? The objects on the other side of the wall are not visible, so there's no reason to use DC 0 for "notice a visible creature" as a base.
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Very true, in fact by RAW, you can stand against a 1 foot thick wall and perceive what's on the other side by taking a DC10 check.Isn't DC 10 just the base DC though? I mean, the beds are effectively invisible and immobile, which would give at least +40 modifier.
The beds have total cover but they're not invisible. Obviously, my last few posts are all tongue in cheek, highlighting some of the absurdities in the Perception RAW. I think for stealth resolution, general listening and smell they are probably okay. But for general sight, touch and taste they are meaningless.
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They are very ambiguous. That's why the reason I can see them being read as I suggested is because if something is ambiguous you look for context in surrounding text.
"In an area of bright light, all characters can see clearly. Some creatures, such as those with light sensitivity and light blindness, take penalties while in areas of bright light. A creature can’t use Stealth in an area of bright light unless it is invisible or has cover. Areas of bright light include outside in direct sunshine and inside the area of a daylight spell.
Normal light functions just like bright light, but characters with light sensitivity and light blindness do not take penalties. Areas of normal light include underneath a forest canopy during the day, within 20 feet of a torch, and inside the area of a light spell.
In an area of dim light, a character can see somewhat. Creatures within this area have concealment (20% miss chance in combat) from those without darkvision or the ability to see in darkness. A creature within an area of dim light can make a Stealth check to conceal itself. Areas of dim light include outside at night with a moon in the sky, bright starlight, and the area between 20 and 40 feet from a torch.
In areas of darkness, creatures without darkvision are effectively blinded. In addition to the obvious effects, a blinded creature has a 50% miss chance in combat (all opponents have total concealment), loses any Dexterity bonus to AC, takes a –2 penalty to AC, and takes a –4 penalty on Perception checks that rely on sight and most Strength– and Dexterity-based skill checks. Areas of darkness include an unlit dungeon chamber, most caverns, and outside on a cloudy, moonless night."
All of the text talks about what the character can and can't do, so it really is not a logical stretch to assume that since everything else is about the character, they must be talking about the light level where the character is.
I rule magical darkness slightly differently but the outcome is much the same.
You, if I understand correctly, treat darkness as a curtain, and it would be impossible to see from outside on one end to outside on the other.
I however allow people to see across it if they are outside it. The magic just effects light while it is in the area and once out the other side it is back to normal
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Not being visible and being invisible are very different.
Only invisibility as the spell provides that +40 to DC, and only against stealth checks.
So unless the bunk beds are actively trying to hide they don't get the bonus.
"If a check is required, a stationary invisible creature has a +40 bonus on its Stealth checks."The GM is within rules to add appropriate modifier to the DC anyway. It is said
"Perception is also used to notice fine details in the environment. The DC to notice such details varies depending upon distance, the environment, and how noticeable the detail is. The following table gives a number of guidelines."
The table gives only guidelines. Also note that the wall provides only a modifier to the DC, +10/foot of thickness. What is the base DC that is modified? The objects on the other side of the wall are not visible, so there's no reason to use DC 0 for "notice a visible creature" as a base.
This is something that gets said a lot to argue against things "They are only guidelines".
I don't have the link, but the Devs have said that the guidelines are the rules.Now this only matters in PFS (and on the rules forums and when trying to make a silly point), in your home game obviously you use the rules as they make sense, diverging from the guidelines where appropriate.
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I rule magical darkness slightly differently but the outcome is much the same.
You, if I understand correctly, treat darkness as a curtain, and it would be impossible to see from outside on one end to outside on the other.
I however allow people to see across it if they are outside it. The magic just effects light while it is in the area and once out the other side it is back to normal
Yes, I treat it as a curtain. Otherwise, if there was alight on the other side, people could still kinda see what's inside the darkness by observing the shadows moving on the lit background, as in some shadow play. Basically, the area of darkness would look like everything is covered in sooth, especialy if you cast it in the middle of otherwise well-lit area. And that's not how imagine it.
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Not being visible and being invisible are very different.
...is a rule I never see used even though it is RAW.
The game is a lot easier if you merge invisibility, blindness, darkness, impenetrable smoke/fog and total cover into a single concept.
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This is something that gets said a lot to argue against things "They are only guidelines".
I don't have the link, but the Devs have said that the guidelines are the rules.Now this only matters in PFS (and on the rules forums and when trying to make a silly point), in your home game obviously you use the rules as they make sense, diverging from the guidelines where appropriate.
I'm still asking: what is the base DC you are modifying with the wall?
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I however allow people to see across it if they are outside it. The magic just effects light while it is in the area and once out the other side it is back to normal
I houserule the same as you. I also allow people in magical darkness to see light sources beyond the darkness. I also know there is an FAQ that states the opposite.
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"Notice a visible creature dc 0"
Another funny RAW tidbit, "Visible" to who?
It just says it has to be visible.
Visible is defined as "Able to be seen."
I don't know about you but I have never seen a bunk bed that I have not been able to see.
We can pretty easily conclude that all bunk beds are "able to be seen" unless a specific isn't through use of invisibility.
That means that the base dc is 0, because the bed is very clearly a visible bed.
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Not being visible and being invisible are very different....is a rule I never see used even though it is RAW.
The game is a lot easier if you merge invisibility, blindness, darkness, impenetrable smoke/fog and total cover into a single concept.
That only works for sight based Perception checks. Detecting a creature burrowing beneath you is a DC25 check, being underground it is not visible, stating it is therefore invisible would make the overall DC45 [EDIT] adjusted by distance, perhaps +10 per foot if the ground was wall like.
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Thank you for that FAQ, so basically, darkness and fog cloud do pretty much the same thing. Just differently.
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I also allow people in magical darkness to see light sources beyond the darkness. I also know there is an FAQ that states the opposite.
I wouldn't houserule that. If there's an effect that destroys photons in the area (which is how I imagine magical darkness working) then it would also apply to light entering the area, stopping it from reaching the other side.
In your system, if there's an enemy in magical darkness and a big bonfire behind him, do you see a silhouette? Or is he somehow made invisible?
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I am now ruling it like a curtain too. I didn't know about that FAQ.
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I also allow people in magical darkness to see light sources beyond the darkness. I also know there is an FAQ that states the opposite.I wouldn't houserule that. If there's an effect that destroys photons in the area (which is how I imagine magical darkness working) then it would also apply to light entering the area, stopping it from reaching the other side.
In your system, if there's an enemy in magical darkness and a big bonfire behind him, do you see a silhouette? Or is he somehow made invisible?
I had difficulty picturing the opaque darkness model when darkvision still worked. Now you have mentioned it, I can see the photon destroying model but I settled on 'a streetlight is out' as a model. In the model I use they do create silhouettes. I've found it makes for some interesting tactical combat choices and can be more useful for the players. The other model can be a bit like a poor man's mass invisibility, especially when most monsters have darkvision and most PCs don't.
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The 24h 'cooldown' retry for Diplomacy.
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I've seen WWII era rifles that had a flip-up sight that helped the soldier with long range targets. The rear site was elevated above the barrel, with the front site being at barrel level. When the rifelman aimed with the sight like normal, it resulted in the barrel of the rifle being angled upwards, accounting for the longer range and drop of the projectile.The difficulty would be having the spyglass lined up with the target and the bowman's eye as the bow changed angle. Possible, yes, perhaps with some sort of gimbal system that could be locked for elevation changes. It would probably be a move action to change the sight's position and the odd weighting of the weapon would almost certainly mean it would need an exotic weapon proficiency.Some form of adjustable mount, so you can get the bow to roughly the right angle while keeping the spyglass pointed at the target?mount the spyglass to the bow like a scope.But longbows fire in an arc and spyglasses look in a line. When you start to pick the angle to fire at you lose sight of your target.
Technically all sights for rifles work this way, though the difference in angle is imperceptible for "normal" combat ranges. I still chuckle at the optimism of whoever ordered WW1-era rifles to have sights adjustable up to 2000m.
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The dc for noticing a visible creature is 0.The sun isn't a creature, so that doesn't matter.
Also, you never see the sun anyway, just the light emanating from it.
Technically, you don't see anything unless you detect the light coming from it, so this is mere semantics. Dictionary.com says:
See: to perceive with the eyes; look at.My grandfather thought he was very clever when he asked me if I thought you could see light. We got into an argument about language.
If the sun were cold and dark, you wouldn't be able to see it except by its shadow against the stars, so it's not an entirely stupid rule. It's simply the lighting rules that are b0rken.
Actually, you wouldn't be able to see Azathoth at the distance of the sun, and it's a creature.
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With smokeless powder rifle rounds that aren't 7.62x39/300 Blackout at least. It actually applicable to black powder.
By RAW, the maximum range for a composite longbow is 1100 feet, but you need a Perception DC of 110 to spot somebody standing and waving in a featureless field at that distance.108: Open field to spot is favorable conditions. May be even lower, as there's nothing that states favorable conditions don't stack.
A weapon's mechanical distance outpacing the distance a human can use it is also pretty normal. Without magnified optics that's actually quite hard with a modern rifle because your sights cover the entire target.
Oh I agree that the person would be difficult to hit at that range and the -20 range penalty certainly reflects that. It's the fact that by RAW the target can't even be seen at that distance that doesn't sit right. I know that by looking out of the office window and using Google Maps to measure distance that I can notice people in a park over a mile away and even work out their gender, build and age group; though distinguishing between adult and middle aged at that range is near impossible.