The world itself is of my own creation.
Has the race information been alter in any way? If so, was this clearly changed and made obvious? Or did your new world just add goblins in? Swapping worlds don't change the info under the race/moster listings unless you tell people it does.
I like a more moral gray area. I think it gives my characters more of a depth of personality.
Totally cool as long as it's clear to everyone that's the it works. I'm commenting from 'by the book' POV.
I know that the Paladin doesn't follow Torag.
Oh, I didn't expect he did. I was pointing out that was allowable behaviour from a LG paladin: it wasn't an act that makes them fall so it's not evil. The players oath might have something about surrender, but I wasn't commenting on that part.
It's not a common thing in my head.
For me, this would mean I'd go with the default setting/description for goblins. That's not to say the paladin isn't free to make up his own mind, it just means that if I was a player I'd be right with the magus saying we should kill them. Myself, I avoid playing a paladin because these kind of questions come up all the time and no one wants to fall over a disagreement over what good/evil in a 'shades of grey' game.
It's a blast reading through and seeing everyone's fairly differing opinions.
Glad you had fun. ;)
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therobfather3: Cool, that explains everything I was curious about. Sometimes you end up rolling with what you're given: I can respect that and it makes the situation make a LOT more sense to me. Sometimes the players find something only if they look for it. I blame the paladins of the world for always looking on the good side of things. ;)
I love paladins.
So do I. You can distract them with some hard luck story and the rest of the party can do what needs done...
"Oh no, there's a beggar over here thinking about stealing because of hunger! Quick mister paladin, counsel him!"
"Alright guys, while he's doing that, 'convert' these goblins into fertilizer!"
"Sorry Mr paladin, while you were away those goblins tried to grab a weapon and attack us. We had to kill them... Look at this awful scratch one of them put on my arm... can you heal my ouchie?" ;)
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Yeah. I still wonder why dwarves are not LE.The entire reason why there is an orc problem is because the dwarves went on an insane 'quest for the sky', and instead of just passing through orc lands peacefully... they harried and pushed the orcs the entire way to the surface (I think after a couple miles of pushing, even orcs would say "you want through? Then go! I just want to go home!"). (I also feel like this paints the entire social relationship of those races with the surfface world; dwarves were prepared for their journey and had enough supplies to set up in an uninhabited area, while orcs were refugees with no supplies forced to raid to survive)
I can understand the logic of torag's paladin code (when you live in the underdark, most races are insane, and letting them go just lets them report back your location, and then they come back to murder your children)... but I do not get why torag is lawful "good".
Had enough supplies? How long do you think the Quest for Sky lasted? A week? It took 300 years. No society of dwarves, well-supplied or not, carries that much supply with them.
But ultimately, dwarves and Torag are good because they're considerably more good, looking over the general trends in their lives and actions, than evil. Good doesn't mean they have to be perfect.
I love paladins.So do I. You can distract them with some hard luck story and the rest of the party can do what needs done...
"Oh no, there's a beggar over here thinking about stealing because of hunger! Quick mister paladin, counsel him!"
"Alright guys, while he's doing that, 'convert' these goblins into fertilizer!"
"Sorry Mr paladin, while you were away those goblins tried to grab a weapon and attack us. We had to kill them... Look at this awful scratch one of them put on my arm... can you heal my ouchie?" ;)
¡LOL!
I would never be a paladin in a game like that, i'll probably call the guards of the first big town we visit just to imprison my party, that kind of attitude only make it worse time to time XDDDDD hahahahahaha. You would start with goblins and end with humans, elfs, or whatever némesis bad aligned you have and you dont like.
Has the race information been alter in any way? If so, was this clearly changed and made obvious? Or did your new world just add goblins in? Swapping worlds don't change the info under the race/moster listings unless you tell people it does.It's definitely not altered much (and wasn't even intentionally altered in this scenario...)
For me, this would mean I'd go with the default setting/description for goblins. That's not to say the paladin isn't free to make up his own mind, it just means that if I was a player I'd be right with the magus saying we should kill them. Myself, I avoid playing a paladin because these kind of questions come up all the time and no one wants to fall over a disagreement over what good/evil in a 'shades of grey' game.You would be 100% right to go with the default feeling of "goblins are evil". I definitely don't think the magus was wrong to act the way he did. That's why I let it go on. It was more of an organic decision, I suppose. It became a big discussion, and so I let it ride out because I was interested in seeing what the outcome would be. I didn't think that it would turn into what it has, but that's the dice I rolled, and now I have to accept those results and do with them what I can.
All in all, I had no plans to have non-evil goblins (although I didn't have plans to specifically NOT have non-evil goblins either), this was just an effect of players making decisions in a soft rule set game.
You won't hear me complain about it, though!
You should keep an eye on that magus. If he treats goblins like that, you should not be surprised if he do the same with evil "something" in the future.
EDIT: that, obviously, its a problem because of your party composition. That paladin cant act blind forever.
I would never be a paladin in a game like that, i'll probably call the guards of the first big town we visit just to imprison my party, that kind of attitude only make it worse time to time
So what you're saying is we should go tell the guards about the paladin consorting with evil humanoids and how he was trying to lead them back into town when we stopped them... What town is going to imprison us for killing goblins that were going to be coming there? ;)
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I would never be a paladin in a game like that, i'll probably call the guards of the first big town we visit just to imprison my party, that kind of attitude only make it worse time to timeSo what you're saying is we should go tell the guards about the paladin consorting with evil humanoids and how he was trying to lead them back into town when we stopped them... What town is going to imprison us for killing goblins that were going to be coming there? ;)
Its just a matter of time that you apply that same sismtem to someone that do not deserve the DEATH SENTENCE you want to apply to him.
Even those goblin dont deserved it, being evil is not something you should punish with death. Of course that is my opinion.
And for the record, i was talking about a group that act like you exposed, not to the specific situation we had here. Also, if you think that bluffing one of your party members just to kill folks you dislike or to break his moral believes when he's not looking is something you can do during the campaing without consecuences...then i think you are pretty wrong.
Also, as i said, thats only my opinion. And i would like to remember i'm talking about how a GOOD ALIGNED character should act.
Even those goblin dont deserved it
That depends who you asks doesn't it? What town/village is going to try to rehabilitate them? Most likely, all the paladin would be doing is postponing their execution. other races think of them as monsters, not people. As such, people DO think they deserve it. Do you REALLY think the townsfolk want 'rehabilitated' goblins living next to them instead?
Also, if you think that bluffing one of your party members just to kill folks you dislike or to break his moral believes when he's not looking is something you can do during the campaing without consecuences...then i think you are pretty wrong.
I don't think what i did was wrong. On the contrary, I think it was morally right. if the paladin disagrees, he joined the wrong party... Or is the paladin the only one that's allowed to FORCE his morality on the party without consequence? It goes both ways doesn't it? I know I'm sleeping like a baby after making goblin fertilizer. ;)
And i would like to remember i'm talking about how a GOOD ALIGNED character should act.
Yep, a good person should make sure "universally despised" "virulent parasites" are exterminated. Not doing so puts other GOOD ALIGNED innocent people in anger, moreso as we're bring them into a populated area. Myself, I think accepting the surrender of the goblins wasn't a good act, putting it more as lawful: If anything, consorting with evil beings seems to lean towards evil IMO.
Do you REALLY think the townsfolk want 'rehabilitated' goblins living next to them instead?Interestingly, there are cases of goblins living among humans in Golarion. It's usually not the safest thing, but as an example, goblins live in Thornkeep, IIRC. (We visited that town in an Emerald Spire game. It was... a silly place.)
This goes back to my comments of background setup. If it's actually a known possibility, that changes things.
It should be noted that Thornkeep is a Chaotic neutral town with "a reputation as a rowdy and dangerous settlement that draws unscrupulous adventurers, bandits, and entrepreneurs for many types of illicit trade". Not a place that really gives those goblins a better reputation.
Kinders steal stuff all the time but I don't see you going and burning their villages down!
Do you know where any are ? Would you like to be invited ?
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Kinders steal stuff all the time but I don't see you going and burning their villages down!Do you know where any are ? Would you like to be invited ?
Someone let kenders in here? Death isn't enough, they have to suffer!!! While you burn the place down, I'll make sure none escape...
I'd rather let a goblin marry into the family than allow a kender to breathe the same air as sane creatures anywhere.
PS: I can't see ANY reason kenders are allowed to exist by any civilization past plot armor. any realistic story would have them wiped out if for no other reason than everyone's sanity. Goblins are just evil, kenders are insane.
Since i can see that this conversation is leading us nowhere but to an eternal debate, i,m leaving the topic.
is nice to see that there are plenty of opinions here, even if i totally disagree with some of them.
Well, thats the best thing about this game we play.....possibilities.
So did the eat the goblins?
Goblins are Humanoids, which means they cannot literally be innately Evil like, say, Demons are. They are USUALLY Chaotic Evil. THESE ONES surrendered and pleaded for help, so Good characters should at least listen to what they have to say.
I'm glad you guys got to an acceptable solution. I hope you have fun with your new Goblin pal!
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Goblins steal cattle
Poor ranchers/farmers lose their primary source of income/food
Goblins are always hungry. Let them live and they will keep doing this.
Eventually there will be a hard winter and innocent people will starve due to the goblins.
Kill them all. Do it with fire so they will enjoy it too.