I was not saying dex to damage just dex to hit with melee. you would still not add dex to damage from what I was suggesting.
I was not saying dex to damage just dex to hit with melee. you would still not add dex to damage from what I was suggesting.
So your solution is to give every class an Operative Class Feature instead? How does that solve anything Walsh was bringing up.
All that would do is Add Dex and Strength to the attack roll, unless you meant add either of them but not both, which does absolutely nothing as if you read Walsh's guide a Solarion using Strength for the Damage would have a 28 in Strength but only a 20 in Dex, so that would do nothing for them and if they wanted to increase their Dex higher to have a better save and maintain the same Attack rolls then they are losing quite a number of points in Strength and as a result are going to do much less damage on their attacks per round.
Though it would have been interesting if Charisma controlled Solar Weapon instead of Strength.That would mean a Solar Weapon Solarian would only need Charisma and Dex, leaving them able to boost Charisma, Dex, Con, and Wis at every level.
Just like every other class in the game, and that solves your reflex save "problem" and makes it apparent that they are a Charisma class, and the increase in that with Senderal Influence means they compete equally with Envoys on Charisma Skills so no more complaint that you don't get to sit in the captains seat when flying a ship.
Sigh you still missed what I was saying. nevermind.
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Just like every other class in the game, and that solves your reflex save "problem" and makes it apparent that they are a Charisma class, and the increase in that with Senderal Influence means they compete equally with Envoys on Charisma Skills so no more complaint that you don't get to sit in the captains seat when flying a ship.
Though it would have been interesting if Charisma controlled Solar Weapon instead of Strength.That would mean a Solar Weapon Solarian would only need Charisma and Dex, leaving them able to boost Charisma, Dex, Con, and Wis at every level.
Except that unlike the skill bonuses that are inbuilt in the other classes, Sidereal Influences TURNS OFF when in combat. So feel free to sit in the Captain's chair but when things start to get interesting say goodbye to your 1d6.
Envoy: Charisma and Dexterity
Operative: Dexterity
Mystic: Wisdom and Dexterity
Soldier: Strength/Dex for Melee, Dex for Ranged
Mechanic: Intelligence and Dexterity
Technomancer: Intelligence and DexterityAll of those classes can raise their intended defense, offense, and resolve stats while also simultaneously raising their save stats. All but the melee Solarian. That is why there is an issue. One class clearly operates differently than any other class.
That is, at this point, not something that can be denied. It is a cold hard fact.
Actually, that can absolutely be denied. Half of these classes can only increase defense, offense and resolve stats while simultaneously raising their save stats if they play ranged. That's no different from simply playing a ranged solarian. If the Mechanic, Envoy or Technomancer were to specialize in melee combat, they have to sacrifice a save for better damage.
Melee Mechanic? He would raise STR/DEX/INT/WIS, screwing his fort save.
Melee Envoy? He would raise STR/DEX/CON/CHA, screwing his will save.
Melee Technomancer? He would raise STR/DEX/CON/INT, screwing his will save.
The problem you're describing is not specific to the Solarian, it's system-wide. That's of course if one agrees that it's a problem in the first place and not a feature - you're extremely focused on saves and completely disregarding the advantages of investing in non-save-related ability scores.
Either way you can't in good faith argue the melee solarian is singled out if half the classes run into the same "issue".
Geez, I thought this thread spiraled out of control, got back on track, spiraled out of control, found some commonality, and now is spiraling out of control again.
I'd strongly urge folks taking the time to review what is now page 12, to look back a few steps and see if your talking point has already been brought up, refuted, and counter-pointed ad nauseam.
Much of the new fervor pushing these new pages are the same tired argument with a slightly different coat of paint. No one has changed anyone's mind on either side and that seems unlikely to change.
There are people that find flaws in the Solarian.
There are people that find the same flaws in the Solarian but find them workable in the context of trade-offs in other classes.
There are people that find no flaws in the Solarian.
I think there are established views which are valid for each of those 3 perceptions. Continuing to debate the same argument even with a minor change in semantics doesn't appear to be getting anywhere.
For those that find flaws with the class, there is enough data in this thread that perhaps a new thread needs to be created in the Homebrew sections to start discussing a solution for immediate use instead of beating this horse.
Mechanic isn't INTENDED to be melee.
Citation please. :)
Melee Envoy needs to spend 2 feats MINIMUM to be able to melee properly. They need to take Proficiency in Advanced Melee Weapons, then they need Weapon Specialization in them.
And a ranged envoy needs to spend 2 feats minimum to be able to play ranged properly - longarms proficiency, and longarms specialization. Same goes for drone mechanics and any kind of technomancer. Much like the armor-solarian, these classes are weapon-agnostic - they can easily focus on either melee or ranged styles and have class features that support both approaches to combat. For example Envoys can block AoOs for convenient flank attacks with their unwieldy hammers, technomancers have lots of melee touch spells that don't provoke AoOs, and the drone mechanic even comes with his own handy-dandy flanker as a class feature. :)
Melee Technomancer = Melee Wizard in Pathfinder, sure you can do it, but it isn't what it was built for.
Citation please. :)
There are 3 classes in Starfinder built with melee in mind as a primary role. That is it.
Citation please. :)
So no, you can't compare an off-shoot build not intended for the role you are trying to force it into as proof that a role you ARE intended for not working.
(...)
Others can do (melee), but it isn't their intended path.
Citat... Well, you get the picture.
Here's the thing. You're confusing what you build for with what the class is built for.
EDIT: commentary removed out of respect to the post's response below this
EDIT: comment removed
Regardless of who is right or wrong, at this point this thread is treading into waters which seem to go counter to the forum guidelines. By that, I mean this thread seems to exist solely for the purposes of brow beating and abusive commentary (even if not fully intended to be so). Because some people cannot stop commenting when addressed, and yes, I realize how ironic that sounds since I'm probably not helping by bumping this thread.
Let's let this thread end with people feeling they have some dignity.
Here's the thing. You're confusing what you build for with what the class is built for.Regardless of who is right or wrong, at this point this thread is treading into waters which seem to go counter to the forum guidelines. By that, I mean this thread seems to exist solely for the purposes of brow beating and abusive commentary (even if not fully intended to be so). Because some people cannot stop commenting when addressed, and yes, I realize how ironic that sounds since I'm probably not helping by bumping this thread.
Let's let this thread end with people feeling they have some dignity.
That's a good point. Hwalsh's somewhat heavy-handed style of debating tends to invite rough language in return, I know I let it antagonize me at times. I've removed some potentially incendiary sentences from the end of my previous post. If you see this in time, I'd like to ask you to do the same with my quote.
This thread feels like it's been treading water and not going anywhere productive for some time now, but it's hard to walk away. Honestly, nothing would make me happier than to see this thread get removed from the top of my thread subscription for the Starfinder forum. In fact, I'm going to hide this thread. I encourage you all to do the same. :)
There are 3 classes in Starfinder built with melee in mind as a primary role. That is it.
Operative. Soldier. Solarian.
I thought you told me that a Operative was not a Primary Combat Class. So that you didn't need to consider how the Operative compared to the Soldier vs. Solarion debate.
I guess that changed overnight.
Operative: The Operative mentions combat. Specifically sniping
Which Sniper Rifles cannot be used with Trick Shot, only Small Arms and Operative weapons, so in that tiny class description, it can't get that right, unless Operatives are intended to use weapons that do not work with their major class feature. Basing your argument on flavor text is even stupider than using a poor build.
This is to the rash of people who recently are basically chanting "Kill this thread."
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What it seems is that some people aren't able to persuade those on the side that think Solarians need a little something due to some core issues
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There are some small issues with the class
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vicinity of needing an extra +1 or +2 at the most.
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We can't compare fringe possible builds (off-shoots) to primary builds
They want this thread closed because it serves no purpose. There can be no persuading because you have outright ignored core class features, rules as written all to make your baseless argument that Solarions having weaker Reflex Saves than a Soldier, makes them utterly garbage.
Rules as Written Starship Combat is not Combat, as such Senderal Influence is still usable during this stage of the game. Ignoring this only shows you lack understanding of the basics of the game and class, but you constantly claiming they cannot use this ability when they absolutely can, is dishonest.
You keep claiming that Graviton powers are too situational and that they cannot be used reliably, so that they should not be taken into account when discussing how a Solarion stacks up to a soldier.
There are only small issues, if you do what you are doing and that is staying in Photon Mode 100% of the time. Graviton provides the Reflex Save bonus you so deeply desire, which since you are required to have no more than 1 attunement power more than the other, it is by design that you are intended to switch between your modes to make most of the powers you have. That you keep screaming like a child that staying in 100% beat face mode with your magic stick and can't avoid reflex save abilities, even though they absolutely can and only do so slightly worse than other classes whilst maintaining FAR more consistent DPR than most every other class is a laugh.
You claim that off-shoot builds are not to be compared, then we can outright ignore your build as an off-shoot, for the simple rule of a Solarion is not intended to be in one attunement for the entire fight, they get both styles of powers and are intended to use them as the fight ebbs and flows in different direction and maintaining one style is strictly for when the fight has reached that stage, not turn on photon and run around and ignore the other half of your class.
But because you make this a DPR race it's impossible to convince you of anything. Because you refuse to acknowledge that losing a few points of damage each turn in exchange for shoring up a specific play styles weaknesses is to big a price to pay, because what if you can't 2 round a creature that is intended to be an equal fight for the entire party, or god forbid extend combat by a single round because you weren't doing maximum damage at all times.
You'll outright ignore most of what I am saying because you don't understand the game, you are comparing 2 classes on the basis that because they can both be played melee, that makes them comparable to each other. Which is utter ignorance of the entire basis of the class, because you presume to know that that is how it is intended for them to be played, on the faulty notion that because they can POTENTIALLY have a free scaling melee weapon they are infact a melee class, when you ignore the other option is a free armor bonus. Finally the idea that classes can be compared is utterly ridiculous in the first place, because you have this unfounded notion that class abilities can be compared to each other without taking into account the entire class.
If people are complaining that the situation is a save deficiency, showing that every other class can hit a base +16 in any strong save without needing a feat, don't make a build that uses a feat and claim that they are wrong. It is blatantly a dishonest attempt.
What they are saying is that a Solarion hitting 16 on its BAD SAVE, the one it isn't intended to be good at, the one that is supposed to be lower than it's other, the one that is a weak point in the classes design is not a problem and that unless you can show EVERY OTHER CLASS, not just the Soldier is hitting FAR above that on their bad saves respectively, while maintaining near DPR, AC, Health, Stamina, Resolves and Skills as the Solarion then this is not infact a problem.
Graviton Provides the +2 Save bonus you keep asking for, solution don't stay in Photon all the time like a retard.
You can use Sederal Influence in Starship Combat, thats how the rules are written, so they do have comparable skills to an Envoy.
You ignoring every other ability the class offers outside it's ability to run and slash is dishonest.
You are only comparing it to a single class not other classes that also share similar abilities or concepts because if you did you would realize that Solarions are not singled out to be made weaker.
Your lack of knowledge of other classes shows in that you don't realize that other classes have more weird rule quirks that prevent them from even using their class abilities or do so in the most utterly retarded way.
You have yet to actually present a single argument that actually provides a solution to fix the problems you think exist, because just adding a revelation to to boost saves does not fix the problem, it just creates mandatory abilities that a class has to take to be built "Efficiently".
Edit: I called an Operative a Soldier in a part of this and felt it would be confusing. This has been corrected.
Can we please just agree to disagree and move on to something else? I'm tired of feeling like this is the only active thread on the Starfinder forums. Surely there are better things we could all be doing, like giving advice, coming up with cool character concepts, making character art...something!
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Can we please just agree to disagree and move on to something else? I'm tired of feeling like this is the only active thread on the Starfinder forums. Surely there are better things we could all be doing, like giving advice, coming up with cool character concepts, making character art...something!
Eh, as long as people want to talk about a topic it will be talked about. Telling people to move onto something else before they want to finish won't really do much good.
Why is Charisma still a stat? I find this baffling; we've had this problem for what, forty years? It's always just been here because it's here, with awkward solutions like Pathfinder and 3.5 where with enough feats you can make it do everything. It's become an embarrassment. I'm not trying to invalidate social builds; I think your social build should get more out of its investment at a basic level.
It doesn't do anything that couldn't be stuck onto wisdom with next to no conflict. Wisdom's already a touch lacking, and I feel we tend not to see that because we've all got PTSD from will save junk. Needing charisma, especially on a melee build, is punishment, and I don't care where you think the Solarion ranks for dpr, its key ability shouldn't be charisma just to punish it. Look at this! the only ability that needs as little space as charisma is constitution, and both the things con does are heavy-weight abilities that everyone pretty much wants no matter what. The Solarion isn't even mentioned, and I don't blame them because charisma is only relevant to it in terms of being a ball and chain attached to its ankle.
Charisma has nothing that merits an entire separate stat. It's a waste of a line on a character sheet. It's got four skills associated with it (aside Profession), and three of them are basically different ways to accomplish the same things. Sure they're useful in their own ways, but does getting that bonus really make Charisma worthwhile? Is it so valuable that it would make Wisdom overpowered? 'Cause I'm pretty sure how I prioritize my stats would shake out exactly the same, minus a bit of dead weight.
AND ANOTHER THING! I value social skills lower in general because the truth is that when you play social, you can fluff your way around them much more readily than you can around something like your hit bonus. You might convince your DM to give you +2 to hit if you do something especially dazzling, but if you're trying to get an audience with a king, you can probably manage it with all kinds of different skill combinations. You might REALLY need diplomacy that one time that you have to convince the king his vizier is going to assassinate him, but most of the time if you get creative, you'll be able to work your way around needing to roll.
And that's sort of my other beef with Charisma. I AM a social player, and when I'm reduced to actually using the social skills directly, it's almost never as fun. Using the social skills is the BORING part of playing a social character. It's not like I'm rolling diplomacy and oh boy what if I get a critical hit and bed all the Duke's sons! Fluffing your way through those situations IS the fun part.
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AND ANOTHER THING! I value social skills lower in general because the truth is that when you play social, you can fluff your way around them much more readily than you can around something like your hit bonus. You might convince your DM to give you +2 to hit if you do something especially dazzling, but if you're trying to get an audience with a king, you can probably manage it with all kinds of different skill combinations. You might REALLY need diplomacy that one time that you have to convince the king his vizier is going to assassinate him, but most of the time if you get creative, you'll be able to work your way around needing to roll.
And that's sort of my other beef with Charisma. I AM a social player, and when I'm reduced to actually using the social skills directly, it's almost never as fun. Using the social skills is the BORING part of playing a social character. It's not like I'm rolling diplomacy and oh boy what if I get a critical hit and bed all the Duke's sons! Fluffing your way through those situations IS the fun part.
That's an issue with your play style and not the rules.
There are rules in place for succeeding at social skills as much as there are for success in combat or non social skills.
If your DM is choosing to ignore them because you talk your way around it, that's not the games fault.
It works the other way too. You may have a character with diplomacy through the roof, but you as an individual can't put a coherent sentence together. The rules allow your character to sweet talk his/her way in to see the grand pooh bah of wazoohland, even if you the player would get arrested for standing tomclose to the gate that leads to guard quarters.
So, Charisma exists in order to allow folks who normally aren't particularly persuasive or socially adept, to play a character who is. Just like strength lets you play Hercules or intelligence lets you play a Stephen Hawking.
I don't think s/he's negating that aspect. Look at it this way: telling an NPC that the sky is blue doesn't depend on social skills. There just isn't any skill check to tell somebody a true fact and leave them free to react based on their existing opinion of you etc. Social skill successes describe certain effects, sure, which allow certain outcomes that might not have occured without succesful check. But you can still have 'social' exchange of information, with NPCs acting by their own impulses who will still process and act upon that info. I mean, if an NPC can react by learning info carved into a stone tablet, they can certainly react if told by a human being. That doesn't negate the mechanical part of social skills.
"Oh I see the barmaid, I ask her if we can sit at the open table and order food." "Roll Diplomacy... Fail... OK, she refuses to let you eat at that table." "Wait, isn't that her job?" "Yes, but you failed the Diplo check, try again later".
"OK NPC Followers, I found out the beer keg was poisoned. Who drank the last draught from it? Don't worry I'm not mad at stealing my beer, we just need to get the antidote to whoever drunk it." "Roll Diplomacy... Fail... Nobody answers, they won't reveal unimportant secret". "OK, fine I will leave the room but first I ask whoever drunk that poisoned beer to drink this antidote which they can all verify themself is a real antidote because they are all Expert Alchemists." "Hm... Diplomacy roll... Nope... They would have agreed except that was an additional request after what you said before, so nobody will do it." <whisper whisper> "OK fine, I will follow the George Castanza doctrine, so everybody, I beg of you to jump up and down but NEVER EVER drink the antidote if you drunk the poisoned beer!" "OK, Diplomacy roll... OH, big time failure.... OK, so as soon as you leave they decide to disobey your request, they will not jump up and down and the guy drinks the antidote". "Shucks, I really need to invest in Diplomacy" <wink>.
Sure, fancy choice of words shouldn't in itself change anybody's opinion of you independent of Diplo roll. But that doesn't mean Diplo/Bluff/etc are the end all be all of social interactions.
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@Quandary - nope, she specifically calls out replacing the need for social skills with other skills for important moments like meeting the king.
She's complaining that a social score is useless because her DM lets their group change the rules and functions of a skill set to circumvent weaknesses in their class. That's perfectly fine in your home game, but claiming a stat is useless because your home rules is wrong.
Additionally, your first example is ridiculous. Unless given good reason to refuse you entry then you won't need a diplomacy for that situation at all. It's like me making you roll athletics checks every time you need to open a door, or intelligence checks every time you want to read a sign.
As for your second situation. The first roll is definitely diplomacy. You failed. Sucks to be you. Maybe if your friends had all chipped in with aid another you'd have passed.
The final,attempt is a bluff check though. You're deliberately trying to trick them using reverse psychology. This time you're the one trying to change which skill is being used to circumvent weakness. Failing the bluff means they don't fall for the trick and still don't take the antidote.